"bo0ger1" .@. wrote in :
First, you're the one who asserted that everyone else is doing things
"wrong" with their water changes.
OK, now you want to put words in my mouth. I NEVER said doing water
changes was wrong.
Thus the quotes... You don't say it directly, but nearly every post you
make on the topic alludes to water change proponents being knuckleheads, or
worse... How else should I read it when you characterize water changers in
this fashion?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...5ab41c03808c60
a?dmode=source&hl=en
booger:"I haven't done a water change over a year either. Most of these
*knuckle heads* in this NG are *brain washed* into thinking you have to do
water changes."
*Emphasis mine. Here, you attribute water changes to a herd mentality;
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...480267794f045c
6?dmode=source&hl=en
"Pat: I agree that anything is possible, but many many more people than
Pat: you and
Pat: your friend say that water changes are necessary with the current
Pat: technology.
booger: This is called FOLLOWING the HERD. Follow away!"
Read this slowly: Water changes are NOT
necessary. How many times do I need to write this?
For FOWLR tanks, you never needed to write it even once.
Second, you're the one who claims to
have some degree of scientific knowledge, and insight into the lack
of scientific knowledge of others. Science is founded on evidence,
as I'm sure you know. If you want to claim a superior scientific
position, then it should be no suprise when someone asks you to show
your evidence.
You are really good at writing what I have never claimed!
That's exactly what you claimed when you offered these insights:
"I think the real reason they do it is for a lack of understanding at the
chemical/biological level. It is easier for them to do a water change than
to grasp what is going on in their tank at a biological level."
source:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...5601568df1393c
6?dmode=source&hl=en
"Than don't change your habits. Old habits are hard to break. Continue to
do your water changes and leave the non-water changing to those that are
more qualified (I mean no offense here). "
source:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...48e9083de7c305
e?dmode=source&hl=en
Their lack of knowledge (and your corresponding excess) is the reason why
they do water changes, and you don't. You assert a greater level of
understanding, but you do not evidence your results.
Even if you do evidence your results, I don't understand why the need to
denigrate water-changers (aka the knuckleheads/knuckledraggers, aka the
brain washed, aka the herd). If their inability to maintain tanks without
water chnages is somehow based on their lack of understanding of chemistry,
or how "qualified" they are, why put them down for it?
You can take it or leave
it. This is a newsgroup, not a court room.
It doesn't need to be a "court room". I'm not looking for "beyond
reasonable doubt", or a "preponderance of the evidence". I'm merely
looking for anything you can offer to back up your claim of
scientific knowledge, other than your anonymous word (which, in
itself, holds no scientific value) and snarky comments against a
proven method and its proponents.
I say again, what evidence could I possible offer ??
The same things I've been repeatedly asking for, please.
Tank size?
Tank age?
sump?
sump size?
nutrient export?
fish species/size?
inverts species/size?
recent water test results?
Do you track water parameters regularly? Observe any fluctuations?
Equipment setup (skimmer, lights, powerheads, sterilizer, carbon, phos-
reactor, other filtration etc)?
Feeding schedule?
A pic would be nice, as many of us can gauge general tank health from the
appearance of the inhabitants, especially inverts, who tend to reflect
clearly the quality of the water in which they're raised.
Your word on these values is good enough, but my point here is that just
saying 'NWC!!!one!' is simply insufficient without the above context to go
with it.
and 2) specify further the conditions
under which he obtained his claimed success.
Here are my conditions: No water changes. I use a skimmer and
supplement with Kent Marine Essential Elements.
You've said that already, but that is hardly sufficient information
to characterize a tank, don't you agree?
No, I don't agree.
See, this is where I take issue with your assertions. By your
disagreement, its almost the same as saying that tank parameters other than
"skimmer and supplement" may be varied freely with the same final result;
success without water changes.
It seems to me like you're suggesting that, since booger's
experiences
correlate with your own, that should somehow validate his
unevidenced assertions scientifically for the rest of us.
No, what he is stating is that I am not alone. People do exist,
other than those that have responded in this thread, that do not do
water changes and still maintain a successful aquarium.
I've already recognized their presence (and success) as a minority.
But without more specific knowledge about their setups, the mere fact
that they
don't change water doesn't mean that I or anyone else will be able to
reproduce their results, does it?
It's not rocket science dude.
What happened to that special insight into tank chemistry/biology that I
needed?
Instead of doing water
changes...ummm....don't do water changes.
The above conflicts, more or less directly, with this;
"I think the real reason they do it is for a lack of understanding at the
chemical/biological level. It is easier for them to do a water change than
to grasp what is going on in their tank at a biological level."
Which is it?
No. My only assumption is that the sum total of *your* experience
would amount to one data point in support of not changing water (in
FOWLR tanks),
Sure. That's all 'I' can offer is one data point because 'I' only
have one aquarium. Sorry, I'm not setting up another tank just to
convince you.
Nor am I asking you to. All I'm asking is that you elaborate on your data
point a little bit... and maybe quit denigrating those who maintain their
tanks successfully via a different method?
Have you polled everyone that
maintains a marine aquarium? You are also making the assumption
that the practice of regular water changes is the only accepted
practice for maintaining a healthy aquarium.
Not at all, and since I started posting to this thread with a
specific acknoweldgement that you _can_ maintain FOWLR and, under
specific conditions, sometimes reef tanks without water changes,
there is evidence that your characterization of my position is false;
You never misrepresented my position? (see above)
If I did, it was inadvertent, and I apologize. I try to make it clear when
what I write is my interpretation of comments which are potentially
subjective. You'll see qualifiers like:"It seems to me like you're
suggesting that.." etc. to opinion/interpretations...
Look atomweaver. You are correct, my experiences only represent one
data point and are purely anecdotal. I am not forcing my views on
anyone, I am merely stating that from my experience, water changes are
not necessary. My success with non-water changing has also been
mirrored by others (more anecdotal evidence). 'I' maintain a very
healthy FOWLR aquarium sans water changes. I was merely offering my
experiences to the 'herd' as an alternative to water changes. Maybe,
just maybe a few people 'woke up' and are now questioning their own
aquarium maintaince practices. I offer no guarantees for success.
'take it or leave it'
This is the most concise, well thought-out, informed, and polite (only one
'herd' comment) segment I think you've ever posted in this forum. Had you
started with the above, intead of this;
"Most of these knuckle
heads in this NG are brain washed into thinking you have to do water
changes. The people who push it are LFS owners like Wayne. The more water
changes you do the more money he makes."
I'd say you would have had a very different past two weeks, here...
I think you are right about water changes, to a certain extent, but i'm a
bit more cautious about which setups I would consider NWC for, especially
reef type setups.
If you have the time to post the extra information about your tank and
parameters I asked for above, I'd appreciate it. See you all after the
holiday...
Regards,
DaveZ
Atom Weaver