Many people on various goldfish lists have had this happen. come home to find a fish
dead that was perfectly healthy when they left the house. most people dont do a
necropsy on their fish to find out what happened. Fortunately, many have long
handled tweezers to get the rock out of the GF mouth since this most often happens at
feeding time when GF are aggressively sucking up off the bottom of the tank.

Even a good cleaning does not really get rid of all the mulm and crap that
accumulates in and under gravel and ornaments. many people who thought there were
doing a smashing good job of cleaning their tanks were shocked when they pulled the
underground filter plates out and saw what stirred up into the water. the other
indication is a persistent high nitrates, indicative of rotting stuff under plates
where water channelizes. Another drawback is after a while people get tired of the
water changes and cleaning and it gets increasingly cursory. as this happens,
nitrate and organic acids rise and the fish start suffering. the pH drops and kills
off the good bacteria and then there is a toxic stew.

Actually the toxic gases are produced anaerobically .. hydrogen sulfide and other
partial breakdown products, typically much like those in crude oil. they stink
badly, and when undergravel plates are pulled the smell of sulfur is very strong.

nitrates are not removed by cleaning the gravel, but by replacing the water.
anything in the tank that drives up nitrates will mean more water changes.

looks are an obvious consideration. but with big flashy goldfish I prefer the zen
appearance, and the bottom does grow its own algae covering, which I leave alone like
I do the back and sides of the tank. this provides a living filtration system that
can be a life saver if the electricity goes out. and no, with proper filtration and
proper placing of air stones there is no residual poop on the bottom of the tank.
actually, any kind of string of poop is a sign that the fish are either being
overfed at one time, or the food is wrong. in ponds, GF normally graze all day long
and their poops fall apart after exiting the end. plants can be attached in other
ways. http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/care/plants.html
tied to suction cups, planted, allowed to grow free

a very good suction is required to get the detritus out of the gravel.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...g%20techniques
GF are not just nosy and curious, they have an excellent sense of smell and will be
drawn to where the "action" is by the smell of leftover food. they can also be quite
fast in moving to where the bell is. I have never suctioned up a single tail nor a
koi (my mistake having koi in a tank, but I was a raw newbie). however, fancy GF are
slow compared to single tails and any with a big head or hood will suction up even
faster.

circulation in a ugf gets quickly channelized. the water flows to those areas with
least resistance. debris piles up where the water isnt flowing as strong and soon
the water is only flowing in the channels.

most people who follow your techniques would have dead fish in a short period of
time. that is the reason that Jo Ann Burke (the Goldfish Guru) came up with the
essentials list for newbies.... to maximize success.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...htm#essentials
I set up a 20 gallon tank, 3 GF, for my mother. It too did fine with almost no care
at all and then all the fish died, the tank had gone toxic despite the plants, the
gravel, the string algae all over the inside. and the fish frankly hadnt grown at
all, a sign of severe stunting due to chronic toxic water conditions. only then did
I find out she was not changing water.
Ingrid



Peter in New Zealand wrote:
amosf © Tim Fairchild wrote:
wrote:

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re1.htm#GRAVEL
GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.

Interesting opinion, but...

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in
their throat.

Possible perhaps, but never seen it actually happen.

2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work
thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.

I imagine rotting food is potentially bad for all fish, but then that's why
you clean the gravel. Mind you I notice fish tend not to eat 'rotting
food'. They tend to be a little selective.

3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and secrete
toxic gases.

Toxic gasses? Ammonia perhaps. Of course that's why you clean gravel.

4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up
nitrate levels. High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste
output of an extra fish for two which drastically lowers the "carrying
capacity" of the tank (1 gf per 10 gallons).

Nitrate factory, sure. That's why you clean the gravel. Nitrates can be
great, but we know about plants and goldfish

5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that it
kills off the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first to
die, which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the entire
biofilter. Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking for
wastes and changing water, sudden crashes are not detected until the fish
are showing severe symptoms.

That's why you clean the gravel. And of course with correct kH the pH is not
going to crash on you... And we all check the parameters now and then,
right

6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or
rocks on the bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that
gets caught under the items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of the
water in the tank means all the crud and wastes are sucked out by the
filter intake. There is no siphoning required.

If you want to save work maybe, but I like the look of gravel and it gives
you somewhere to stick plants (anubias with gf of course - as well as some
salad for them to snack on). But even in a bare bottom you have to clean up
wastes. The crap still sits all over the bottom anyway.

7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed every
time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can
be put over the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste
water.

This is the silliest one. The whole idea of the bell siphon is to reduce the
suction so that the gravel isn't sucked out. Fish don't get sucked into the
siphon. And fry? In a goldfish tank? Yum!

Not great reasons to go to a bare bottom. Point 6 to make vacuuming easier
maybe.

But this was about UGF, and with UGF you change many of the points above in
that there is circulation in the gravel and so it's not "anaerobic"...

Whew! I can see all these points, but I have a little tank of about 40
litres with four decent goldfish and two white cloud minnows in it.
There's gravel on the bottom and all the plants are plastic. It's away
from any direct sunlight and I allow algae on the end and back panels. I
have a very good external pump/filter hung on the outside of the tank,
and change around half the water three or four times a year. I dump
chlorinated water straight from the tap on the assumption that what's
already in the tank will dilute anything unpleasant for the fish. Apart
from that all I do is feed them lightly once a day. This little tank has
run without a single hiccup for over two years now, and brought endless
enjoyment to me and the grandkids when they come to stay. In fact each
grandchild has his/her own fish they have named.

Now, my point in all this is simply this - people often remark on how
clean and fresh the tank looks, and how healthy and energetic the fish
are. I never check Ph or any other parametres - the only three
principles I use are - (a) watch the feed quantity, (b) understock the
tank, (c) have a good filter setup and keep it running sweetly. So,
ahem, why the need for all these other things, or am I just plain lucky?
I am not seeking to be provocative, and I respect the obvious experience
and knowledge of others in this group, which is far greater than mine. I
just want to know if all this extra stuff is good for the fish.

Cheers,



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