Well greetz again my fine fellow....
unfortunately I continue to disagree
not about your love of da malawi cichs but just your one way mentality
so don't take this as a flame on you but rather a nit pick on your methods
So let me continue.....

"Wojciech Milc / The Power Of Dreams" wrote in
message ...
swarvegorilla wrote:

1) most mums never learn to eat enough to not lose condition, at most
they
get little bits and pieces. Usually they get none.

Are we really talking about Malawi Mbuna? They have almost no problem
with feeding while breeding, maybe a little when breeding for the
first time. They may have some problems, though, when the main tank
is too overcrowded (I mean, less than 12-15 liters per adult fish).
But in such conditions you should not expect natural behavior.


At most they will peck a few specks
but I know of no species that can feed with a mouthful of eggs.




The exception is if she is a tank all by herself.

And that's the one method which is preferred by Malawi hobbyists
community
which I belong to. Small separate tanks for breeding females. But
absolutely
no stripping!


by doing this not only do you need tanks matured ahead of time
but you need more tanks
yes it is one method but it's hardly preferred by the whole community
that is just such a blatantly stupid ignorant thing to say
You cannot speak for a whole community.
Especially not one of which I am a part
and I say strip and milk away if ya like
plenty more like me


2) screw other people and there problems with hybrids. They make a
good
first batch of fish to 'learn the ropes' with as they are quite a bit
more
tough.

You should not go online with such and attitude. "Screw other people".
Huh.
As to fish "to learn the ropes" there are many such fish, which do not
belong to endangered species, so what's the point?

the point is this person has fry NOW.
they don't need to go buy another practise group
and who said the species was endagered?
I think its fine to say scew other people when they come down on people new
to the scene with such absolutes
I mean christ what are you a sith lord?
Don't push your ignorant one way attitude on people and expect everyone to
sit back and nod away



3) using fry savers as opposed to keeping the one or 2 that manage to
survive hiding under rocks etc in the main tank does not weaken the
population. That is absurd. All it means is a couple of larger males
will
survive.

As to only males surviving, this is deifinetely not true. And I am
not talking about using main tank to produce as much fry as
possible - I am talking about natural behavior.


so catching out the female (where for a new mum she will prob spit eggs in
the net) and moving her to a new tank is natural.?
If you are going for numbers ya milk at 2 days and incubate
I am talking about a decent batch, I expect people on the first batch to
take cassaultys.
milking at 2 weeks or so generally gives a decent amount.
If I'm gonna have to setup a new tank for fry I wanna do it for a reasonable
amount.
As to natural behaviour..... unless they are F1 your kinda kidding
yourself.
I had feral mbuna in a pond once and that was interesting
but as far as being in a tank..... they are tame mate.
Fry savers allow the average hobbyist to have breeding going on at virtually
no extra cost
hey when they are not in use they can be used to seperate injured fish or
even grow an island of duckweed out of reach of the fish

1) get an icecream container
2) cut windows on it
3) superglue new green scotchbrite scourer pads over the windows
4) superglue styrofoam chunks around top outside edge of icecream container
to let it float.

take 2 seconds and you now have a place to feed powdered flake and pellets
to your new batch of fry.
how anyone could discount this method is amazing.
It may not be the concrete tanks of the big guys but it certainly allows the
hobbyist to have a bit of breeding fun in their display tanks.
Now grow out tanks are another story, but it defies logic not to let
hobbyists in on the ease of da frysaver


Without stripping and using fry savers there is just no way someone
with only one
fish tank can breed enuf fry to make it worth bothering.

What do you mean by "worth bothering"? If "making enough money" then
we are talking different things now.

No one but the big boys make money breeding fish
and they get rich on goldys and guppys
It takes no small amount of effort to raise a batch of african fry
the effort is the same for 1 fish as it is for 100
so why not aim for the higher ground?
your attempt at a moral highground by raising less is.... ?? I don't know
what it is.
Are you feeling OK?




It also leads to healthier, larger females who breed more often due
to regaining condition quicker.

That's just another inconsequence. A female which has a chance to
keep the fry as long as is needed will be sure more healthy and
it's fry will be healthier. We are not talking about factory here!


That is just silly
many malawi mothers will hold until dangerously thin
it can then be a long road to build them back up too breed again
worse she can be killed if you need to add back into the display in a
weakened state.
This is what I mean about your attitude,
there is no one magical way.
Many cases will be different and sometimes fry numbers are very important.
Sometimes the females survival is more important than potential fry
fry don't need to be in the mothers mouth, just like guppys there is no
umbilical cord connection to the mum
they gain protection and thats about it
While this is nessesary in nature and the mum taking a hit for the team is
ok
in a tank it's not needed.
granted it can be cool to sneak up on a nursery tank and try see the bubs
out of mums mouth
but that can be achieved by throwing the mum in a frysaver.
The fry being healthier is also complete bull
if I milk at 2 weeks and feed spirulina flake and baby brine shrimp
those fry will have a higher survival rate, be larger and healthier than
those that are held by a clucky mum for a month.



Maybe this bizare irrational defence of bloodlines
mattered one day, but for most places those days are gone.

Sad but true. Especially in States. They also have many more
of very interesting (huh) methods, such as male only overcrowded
tanks, one-bag-for-all-fish universal fish food and such.


oh brother.....
you are a lost soul.
the bloodlines are secure ok.
for all the commercially viable africans
maybe in some areas theres the odd hybrid
but you can get whatever ya want if you look.
These fish are stupidly popular and with so many devoted peeps behind them
will always be available
All male display tanks are also suitable to most customers after a psuedo
marine tank
infact most people getting into africans start with all male so don't talk
it down
can lead to a very problem free tank it can
as to 1 bag for all fish fish foods
I love them
spectrum you rock my world
and spirulina flake is a food of the gods
christ even earthworms can raise a fish from egg to plate size no prob.
maybe try looking at this hobby from a view outside of your little box.
most popular hobby in the world and the reason is the amount of
customisation available
your tank, your choices.
do the best by your fish and that don't mean pushing your methods like a
religeon.

To denie someone the chance to raise up some fry just
because of your own issues is just.... stupid.

You just don't have to strip to raise fry. Is small breeding
tank so hard to get and keep?

Actually I was refering to your all '******* fish must die' attitude
but yes for many people another tank is not an option
and also not practical
myself I have a shed of tanks as I said before
always looking for a way to squeeze another system in
but for most people
1 is enough
MTS sounds like a mental problem for a reason you know.



People need to relax and have fun.

That's just stupid. Do you mean that having fun is impossible
while you keep at least SOME rules? Turn on CNN, every day
we see something stupid, bad or outrageous just because
someone "had fun".

Oh great, that explains it all.
suckled by CNN as a child.
Let me quote from a book for you
It's called 'Illusions, The adventures of a reluctant Messiah'
By a guy called Richard Bach... some may know his well known work
'Jonathan Livingston Seagull'
anyway to me it read almost like a hippy matrix
a small book, but quite out there
Anyway the passage I wanted to share is

"The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and
tragedy.
What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls a
butterfly"

I don't expect you to understand this, no do I ask you to agree with me.
But if I could stand up and scream it at your whole country
I would.
Rules are there for a reason. Work out the reason and you can accomplish the
same end without following them.




Try tell discus breeders to kill all their hybrids and see
where that gets ya!

Hello? We were talking african cichlids here! Hello?


Discus are cichlids.
why not be outraged that people keep hybrids of them?
Because everyone else isn't already doing it?
Why polarize yourself into communitys like that.
A fish is a fish.


I been doing this fish thing for a while now
and it still amazes me how single minded people can be.

Doing something for a long time is not equal to doing
it the right way. But I understand some people will not
agree to that. Castro for exapmle :-)

Ah yes but when you have done it with the passion I have
faced you hobbyists in the trenches of the lfs for a few years
after being one myself for many
having been a breeder and worked for breeders
I chat with the wholesalers for for ****s and giggles
and moderate forums
or just contribute to them like I do here.
I ain't big noting myself
hell I hate it when people pull the 'I been doing it for X years' crap too
but look at the context!!
I am poking fun at the single mindedness of fishkeepers.
I have learnt to keep fish so many times over now I understand everything we
do today
will seem barbaric and cruel in 20 years.
that is life in the fish world.
So hey I diversify! At least one method has to be right surely


Watching fish breed is a magical thing.

You do not need stripping for that.

Now flame me all ya want
Heard it all before
I mean crap Iv'e bred blood parrots
do your dam worst!
I'll still be here.

Of course I will still try to convince you. This is
what it's all about. You're still not lost :-)

Perhaps you could come hold my catfish while I give them their ovaprim
shots?
I don't change what works for me unless I find something better.
have seen the behaviour of mums and bubs with the Malawi's
pretty fish but not that interesting behaviourwise compared to many other
cichlids
infact not even half as cool as watching a convict pair with their fry
well to me anyway
the tangs are a bit more exciting


Oh and ya wanna know my best selling African mate?

So this is really about sales, is it?

Yea whatever
I sell fish to buy spirulina flake
thats it pretty much
used to do for a fulltime job
now I do it becuase I love feeding the spirulina but hate buying.
I still breed a lot of africans, mainly because they won't stop
but my focus has changed a lot.
at the moment I am focusing on jellyfish
they fascinate me
espec the combs with their running lights


Katurk..... I hope you got something from those posts
people get a bit emotional over these issues
and I reccomend throwing the terms stripping, milking, frysaver
into google and making up your own mind
Malawi people can be quite full on
I also didn't mean to highjack your thread there
good luck with the gobful!
Don't be worried if the new mum spits or swallows either
only the pro's know how to gargle.

Swarvegorilla



PEACE FOREVER