On Sep 28, 4:12 pm, gaijin wrote:
Its not that all LFS's are out to screw you, but...

They are (generally) not reefkeepers themselves, and only need to know
enough to keep their livestock until it is sold. It is rare to find
an expert LFS that is a reeftaker, and trusting their advise implicity
may lead to problems. The LFS may give you advice in good faith, but
that still doesn't mean that he is giving you truly knowledgeable or
good advice. Generally these gusy just don't know much and as they
say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:59:15 -0000, Big Habeeb



wrote:
Don,
Definitely appreciate the feedback...but I just want to clarify a
couple of things. I HAVE kept sal****er tanks before, just not reef,
so I'm aware of which clowns should and shouldn't be mixed. I also
have a reliable LFS whom I trust IMPLICITLY...no offense to the
posters here, but as I don't know any of you really, I would trust the
LFS over any advice that I receive here (again, I trust this shop and
don't think he'd try and screw me to make a buck...if he did, he'd
lose my freshwater business, the frys of cichs that I am now bringing
to him, and my business of buying supplies for my cats, dog, and
snake). I spoke with him last night when I stopped in to pick up the
r/o di unit, and he also recommended NOT bringing an anemone into the
picture, though his reasoning had more to do with not killing off
other corals, than it did for the sake of the anemone itself.

The truth is, I am in NO rush to get this up and running. This is a
long term project, not a quick 'up and attem' that I've done sometimes
setting up cichlid tanks for others. I know that cichs are far
'tougher' to environmental changes than most of the sal****er
creatures I'll be looking at...and I also know that there are animals
and plants considered "easy, medium, and hard" to keep successfully.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I once kept a moorish idol,
certainly considered by most to be a fairly difficult fish to get to
thrive in captivity.

My plan right now is to start very, VERY slowly. This weekend's goal
is to accomplish a couple of things:
1. Get the tank set up, complete with filtration, skimmer, refugarium,
powerheads, heater, lights etc. Basically everything that I have so
far.
2. Get the substrate in...I plan on using standard non live sand, but
I will be buying from the LFS, not from home depot as recommended in
an earlier post. For the slight difference in price, I'm willing to
take my LFS's word for it that his sand will cause fewer issues than
sandbox type sand.
3. Get the water in, with the proper salt mix.
4. After allowing to run for a bit, use my test kit to see what the
water looks like in its 'stock' state with no livestock. That way
I'll know if my r/o unit is working correctly, and if there's anything
weird about my local water that I need to be aware of. At this point
I'm not fully 'reefed' yet, so if it turns out my water is funky, I
can still change over and just do a fish only tank (which would be
disappointing, but I'm not going to fight a losing battle of forcing
something to try to live in water it simply can't live in).

That's literally ALL I have planned for this weekend. Once I'm
confident that things are running as they're supposed to, I will be
visiting the LFS again (likely NEXT weekend) to pick up a combination
of uncured live rock and dried corals. I'll use the dry corals in the
bank to setup a base (since they won't be seen) and then stack the
live rock appropriately, remembering that I need to make sure the
rocks are touching the bottom of the tank, not sitting on top of my
substrate. Once THAT is done, I'm done for a couple of weeks. I'll
monitor the water quality daily, again using the test kid, and see how
well it starts cycling. I have no intention of rushing in to stocking
the tank with other corals or fish. As far as I'm concerned, it can
sit in this state for months, if needbe (and yes, from all I've read,
I know a couple weeks should be sufficient).

I really do plan on taking my time with this. I know from experience
that first time aquarium keepers biggest error is typically rushing
too much stuff into their tank. I've built small fish-only salt water
environments for other people, and watched them DESTROY hundreds of
dollars worth of livestock by not cycling properly, or by overstocking
a tank. The people who listen, and wait, and are patient typically
have far more success. I myself DID screw up my first freshwater
tank, overstocked, and watched as the fish died one by one. This is
not a mistake I will ever repeat.

As for the question of anemones, I would eventually like to add one,
but this is way, way, WAY down the line once I'm comfortable: with
both the process and my setup, keeping in mind this is my first time
using an overflow and refugium...a large departure from hanging
filtration or even the cannisters I'm used to.

I hope that sets everyone's mind at ease that, while not THE most
educated person on reef keeping, I am fortunately not an idiot
either...and in fact am reading "the new marine aquarium" as we speak.

Mitch

On Sep 27, 7:26 pm, Don Geddis wrote:
"Pszemol" wrote on Wed, 26 Sep 2007:

"Don Geddis" wrote in ...
Fortunately, clowns do just fine in tanks with no sea anemones. So get the
clowns -- but hold off on the sea anemones.

Or... get the books I recomended, educate yourself and then it will be easy
to not only keep clowns in a healthy anemone but with no problems have them
mate and lay eggs every two weeks like mine maroons do.

You're talking to a poster who has never had a sal****er tank before,
certainly never even raised corals.

You take a bunch of random guys off the street. Give them their very first
sal****er tank. For one group, give them only some clownfish in the tank.
For another group, give them clownfish and a host sea anemone.

You wanna have two guesses which group is going to wind up with more
livestock deaths?

Compared to sea anemones, fish (esp. clownfish) are FAR more resilient to
great variations in: temperate, water quality, salinity, lighting, getting
caught in filters/overflows, etc.

Yes, it's POSSIBLE to raise sea anemones (and I've done it too). But it's
irresponsible to recommend that to a brand-new reefkeeper. Especially if you
imply that it's just as "easy" keeping anemones as it is to keep clownfish.

That's just false.

It's possible, but it's not nearly as easy. If things start to go wrong in
your tank, it's the anemone that's going to die first, not the clownfish.

Anemones are just very different animals than these we are used to in our
terrestial lives. So unless you read about their needs, understand how
their body functions - yes, you will kill anemones easily... But this is
not a reason to not keep them - different does not mean they are difficult!

Clownfish live in the ocean too. But are far, far easier to keep alive than
anemones are.

They are different and this is a perfect reason to educate yourself, do
some reading from trusted sources about host anemones and than you will
have all the tools you need to keep a helthy one.

I know how to keep a healthy sea anemone. I still wouldn't recommend it to
a brand new first-time reefkeeper. And you shouldn't either.

Keeping a single clownfish in a tank with other fish is kind of cruel in my
view - these are social fish and are best kept in pairs (Maroons) or small
groups (any other types, including your well known "Nemo").

Recall that we're talking to somebody who knows nothing. Getting "a
clownfish" will work just fine. Getting "a bunch of clownfish" may or may
not. Is he going to mix species, or can he tell them apart? Will he get all
juveniles? Put a pair of female maroons in the same small tank and they'll
kill each other. Put a maroon in with a different species, and the maroon
will probably kill the other clown. Etc.

Yes, all this is possible, if you learn the details. But why make things
difficult for a guy buying his very first fish?

Single clownfish in a tank with other bigger fish will be stressed.

I don't believe you. Proof?

Of course, any small fish will be stressed in a tank with bigger aggressive
fish. But I don't think there's anything special about clowns that requires
them in groups. Any more than any other fish which is usually found in
groups in nature.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _________________________**____
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
And so the Russian people made do on whatever ration of rice and suet the
stores were handing out to the people waiting in the interminable lines in
the dark and the snow that week; they went to sleep hungry and malnourished
but much cheered by the certainty that no greedy capitalists were making
obscene profits by actually delivering them any chicken.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Gaijin,
I'm lucky - the LFS I do most of my business with (Pet Shanty in
Scotch Plains, NJ) has not one, but 3 guys who practice what they
preach. They're all knowledgable, and in fact have several tanks that
are of the 'not for sale' variety in the store, to show off their
abilities (they have a TREMENDOUS 30 year old coral named 'steve' in a
tank by the front of the store). There's another one a little ways up
the road who I trust somewhat, but honestly will not be going there
for livestock. I trust them enough to buy equipment, but beyond that
they seem somewhat shady...willing to tell you that just about
anything is OK to make a sale (they're the ones who originally had me
put a moorish idol in my tank). I've used them for most of the
equipment I purchased, owing to better prices, but any live rock,
fish, coral etc will be purchased from the first shop I mentioned.
The fact that they do have 'keeper' tanks helps set my mind at ease
that they do know what they are doing...and while it's unlikely I'll
have all the 'best' equipment as these tanks likely do, I still trust
that they won't send me in the wrong direction completely. As I
mentioned previously, I take care of all of my various pets from this
shop (cats, dog, snake, cichlids), and while they do well with the
other stuff, fish and sal****er in particular is where they really,
really shine.

Mitch