"Pszemol" wrote on Sun, 30 Sep 2007:
"Don Geddis" wrote in message ...
"Pszemol" wrote on Fri, 28 Sep 2007:
Fish are simply similar to cats and cows, anemones are not.

If you only have experience taking care of a cow, how much do you have to
learn to also take care of a clownfish? You think it's close?

Not much! You will ask the questions what it eats and what to do with
manure clownfish produces and you will be almost good to go :-)

So then, no need to learn about water tight containers with no rusting metal,
about evaporation and the necessity of freshwater topoff, about stable
tropical temperatures, about water changes, etc.?

To take a good care about sea anemone you need to learn far more.

A lot more than cows, that's for sure. Not "a lot" more than clownfish.

Although I grant that it's very helpful to learn as much as possible about
any specific species you care to keep.

But that would be true if you were considering a mandarin dragonet or a
moorish idol, and you had only kept clownfish before. Different species
(may) have different requirements.

Anemones are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT animals in their biology functions than
any vertebrate animal...

You've identified a single large grouping -- vertebrate vs. invertebrate --
and somehow concluded that this is the #1 and perhaps only concern when
talking about pet care. You've made silly comments, such as that taking care
of cows and clownfish are about the same, because both are vertebrates, but
taking care of anemones is very different, because its an invertebrate.

But there are many ways to group lifeforms. Standard taxonomic grouping in
modern science is mostly based on evolutionary trees (where such can be
determined). That is _not_ necessarily the ideal grouping when discussing
pet care. Nor is there any guarantee that evolutionarily-close lifeforms
will have similar care needs.

In the case of care of pets, I'd have to say that the fact that cows live on
land, while clownfish and sea anemones live in the ocean (in the same
ecosystems, in fact!), is a far, far more important grouping that your
vertebrate concern.

Terms "easier" or "more robust" animals are fake terms to mascarade
aquarists lack of understanding particular animal biology and not knowing
how to care about them.

That's not true. They refer to how wide a range of environmental conditions
that an organism can survive (or thrive) in. How varied a diet can they eat,
etc. Giant pandas are not robust, because they only eat certain species of
bamboo. Rats, if they lose their primary favored foods, survive just fine on
a large variety of substitute foods.

If you lose a heater in a reef tank, and the temperature plunged from 80
degrees to 60 degree overnight, and you only discover that in the morning,
some of your livestock is far more likely to be dead the next day, while
other forms -- while not necessarily thriving -- can probably recover once
you correct the problem.

The ones that die are "sensitive", and the ones that survive are "robust".

Fish are far more robust to ammonia spikes in the water than are stony
corals.

That's just bizarre. I would challenge you to find anybody else on this
newsgroup who thinks that keeping a clownfish is more similar to taking
care of a cow, than taking care of a sea anemone.

Open your eyes and try to find vast difference in body structure of these
animals, their behaviour, etc... Try to think of similarities between
different kinds of vertebrate animals and differencies between vertebrate
and sea anemones. If you do not see much differences than you are probably
not ready to take care about an anemone...

It's just one difference among many. And not the most useful difference for
grouping animals, when considering from a perspective of pet care.

Who said here that an anemone should be the first thing he should buy?

This all started because the original poster suggested that he was new
(although it turned out he had kept sal****er fish before), and asked for
advice. One suggestion was that he get a clownfish as a first fish. You
replied that he ought to get a clownfish and anemone together. I said that
the clownfish might be a good choice for a new aquarist, but an anemone is
probably not a good first choice (because it is a more delicate species).
Just like a moorish idol is not a good first choice for a new aquarist.

So, the answer is that YOU were the one who was recommending an anemone.

I challenge you again: please back up your assertion that having a single
clownfish in a tank will cause that clownfish to be stressed. Can you offer
ANY evidence that this is true?

Think of some reasons why clownfish are not seen in the nature alone,
without an anemone, and you will find the evidence you are looking for.

No, that doesn't support your point at all. Clownfish in nature are not
found without anemones, because there are predators in nature, and clownfish
require host anemones as protection. But we don't need to put those
predators in our own tanks, so that "evidence" in nature tells you nothing at
all about how a single clownfish would fare in a home tank without an
anemone.

So, rather than all your speculation, and turning the question around, try
answering it directly. What positive evidence do YOU have, that supports
your claim that a lone clownfish in a reeftank will be "stressed"?

Nano tanks are just exception, because single clownfish is usually also a
single fish in the tank, so it has no larger fish in the tank to be affraid
of... But even in such situation single clownfish looks odd, confused and
without a purpose in life as opposite to a mated pair kept together.

I agree that smaller fish in a tank can be terrorized by larger aggressive
fish.

If that's your only claim, then you have to explain why you think this is any
different from any other small fish in the same tank with the same large
aggressive fish. _All_ the small fish, of any species (with a few minor
exceptions) get stressed in that situation.

You were claiming some special problem for clownfish in particular, different
from other small fish. Please back up your claim, about why clownfish -- but
apparently not other small fish -- "need" to be kept in groups, or else
they'll be "stressed".

Because the actual evidence seems to be the opposite. Namely, that clownfish
naturally live in very small territories in nature, so they're among the very
best fish to adapt to captive conditions in our limited-volume tanks.

-- Don
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Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/