"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"george" wrote in message
news:QORvd.758002$8_6.134000@attbi_s04...

"RichToyBox" wrote in message
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Fish may not feel pain by your definition of pain, but they feel
discomfort,
which is one of my definitions of pain. If you don't believe it, look
at the
actions of a fish with parasites, trying to scape them off, or jumping
out of
the water to loosen them. They react to a tummy ache or head ache or
whatever
by going and laying off by themselves, rather than swimming with the
other
fish and coming to eat. When taken out of water, they do a lot of
flopping
around trying to get back into the water, and I would say that was a
reaction
to the discomfort of being out of water.

Fight or flight response. Sorry. That is not pain. That is a midbrain
function, an involuntary response. Humans can express laughter and
sadness.
Two very different emotional responses. The physiological process
involved is
exactly the same. The difference is how your brain interprets the
stimulus. It
is a very complex interaction between the nerves and senses of our bodies
and
the higher functions of our brain, specifically the neocortex portion of
the
cerebral hemisphere. Pain is nearly the exact same physiological
response. The
difference between these emotions is in how our neocortex interpretes the
signals. We have it hardwired in our bodies to have those physiological
responses, and to distinguish between what the stimulus means (ever wonder
why
people laugh when Dick Van Dyke stubs his toe?). So do other animals,
particularly mammalian predators. The difference in that how we
experience
those sensations depend on how our our neocortex interprets the stimulus.

Doesn't this assume that fish process the pain in the same manner as humans?

If by that you are asking if they process the stimulus in the same way, the
answer is no, because they process the stimulus in their brainstem, whereas we
take it a giant step further and filter it through our neocortex, which is an
organ fish don't have. THAT is a quantum leap from what fish do.

Isn't it possible that fish have a more simple thathurtsswimawaycortex? We
can distinguish between a pinch in the butt and a kick in the ass, because
we have the hardware/software. That doesn't mean that all pain processing is
so capable in all animals. Isn't that a valid possibility?

You are confusing pain with stimulus. Pain is an emotional reaction to harmful
stimulus, the reaction occurring in the neocortex of higher life forms. Fish do
not have a neocortex and so cannot form the emotional reaction that we call
pain. So their reaction is simply a fight or flight response originating from
their midbrain.

snip
Specific wording with specific definitions doesn't change what the
respondents
on this thread have been trying to say. Personnally I use the clove
oil,
because it is used for other treatments, such as abrasion treatments
with
iodine, parasite scrapings, and injections when needed. It may not be
needed
for pain, but it makes the fish much easier to handle during these
procedures,
and I "assume" much less "painful" for the fish. Seeing a fish out of
water is
painful for me, if not them.

Ah, that is the real issue, isn't it? How it makes us feel. Am I Right?
Again, anthropomorphization. It makes us feel bad at least in part,
because we
sympathize with it and think that we wouldn't want to "feel" like what we
think
the fish is feeling. No offense, but how we feel about the issue has no
bearing
on what a fish is or is not feeling.

I disagree. I do not think it is anthropomorphizing the situation by
considering the fish's suffering. it would be anthropomorphizing the
situation if the fish gasped, grabbed it's chest, and then fell down
dramatically.

If the fish gasped, grabbed it's chest, and then fell down dramatically, it
would certainly be considered anthropomorphizing - on the part of the fish!
Again, when a person attributes human form or personality to things not human,
that is anthropomorphizing. Attributing the emotion of suffering to an animal
that is incapble of said emotion IS the very essence of the definition of
anthropomorphizing.


And I wish we could drop that concept, because that word is very difficult
to type.

Fine. come up with a different term for it. Call it human-centered, if you
like.