how does this work?

I am planning a gravel bog addition to my koi pond. I was told about a
filter from Aquascape called the "Snorkel", which is made for this purpose.
Supposedly, you just sink a sump in the clean out once a year or so, and
there is no need for washing the gravel. Here is a link for a similar model
with a diagram. I don't get how the solids get to the clean out vault.
Also, I wonder how the water would disperse to the sides when it can just go
up and then down the slope and back to the pond. They sell additional
slotted pipe sections, to put out to the sides with the vault acting as a
hub, but the base unit is $600.00!!!!!!!! and each extra pipe is three to
four hundred more. And besides, I don't think I want that many hoses going
to this bog. It will only be about six feet wide. I can think of a couple
of different ways to accomplish the settling of the gunky stuff in some kind
of container buried like this one. And if it's successful, I'll sell it to
anyone here for a measly 250.00. I mean, that rubbermaid stuff gets pricey.
; ) Here's the link.

http://www.thepondprofessional.biz/c...roduct_id=1190

If anyone here can help me understand this diagram, maybe a few of us can
put our heads together to do it cheaper, and possibly better. Any help is
appreciated. I am going to also post this on garden web.

Thanks,

Ann

According to that site, the hub must be at the lowest part of the bog. During normal
operation, the water from a circulation/filter pump would feed into the hub, to the
pipe, then up flow to the surface. In this mode, there got to be a lid on that hub to
enclose the system. Otherwise, water would not up flow through the hub, and become
useless.

During cleaning/draining operation, the water from the circulation pump is stopped.
The lid would be removed. The water would now down flow to the pipe, then to the hub.
A sump pump is inserted down the hub, to drain the bog.

Ann in Houston wrote:

I am planning a gravel bog addition to my koi pond. I was told about a
filter from Aquascape called the "Snorkel", which is made for this purpose.
Supposedly, you just sink a sump in the clean out once a year or so, and
there is no need for washing the gravel. Here is a link for a similar model
with a diagram. I don't get how the solids get to the clean out vault.
Also, I wonder how the water would disperse to the sides when it can just go
up and then down the slope and back to the pond. They sell additional
slotted pipe sections, to put out to the sides with the vault acting as a
hub, but the base unit is $600.00!!!!!!!! and each extra pipe is three to
four hundred more. And besides, I don't think I want that many hoses going
to this bog. It will only be about six feet wide. I can think of a couple
of different ways to accomplish the settling of the gunky stuff in some kind
of container buried like this one. And if it's successful, I'll sell it to
anyone here for a measly 250.00. I mean, that rubbermaid stuff gets pricey.
; ) Here's the link.

http://www.thepondprofessional.biz/c...roduct_id=1190

If anyone here can help me understand this diagram, maybe a few of us can
put our heads together to do it cheaper, and possibly better. Any help is
appreciated. I am going to also post this on garden web.

Thanks,

Ann

According to that site, the hub must be at the lowest part of the bog. During normal
operation, the water from a circulation/filter pump would feed into the hub, to the
pipe, then up flow to the surface. In this mode, there got to be a lid on that hub to
enclose the system. Otherwise, water would not up flow through the hub, and become
useless.

During cleaning/draining operation, the water from the circulation pump is stopped.
The lid would be removed. The water would now down flow to the pipe, then to the hub.
A sump pump is inserted down the hub, to drain the bog.

Ann in Houston wrote:

I am planning a gravel bog addition to my koi pond. I was told about a
filter from Aquascape called the "Snorkel", which is made for this purpose.
Supposedly, you just sink a sump in the clean out once a year or so, and
there is no need for washing the gravel. Here is a link for a similar model
with a diagram. I don't get how the solids get to the clean out vault.
Also, I wonder how the water would disperse to the sides when it can just go
up and then down the slope and back to the pond. They sell additional
slotted pipe sections, to put out to the sides with the vault acting as a
hub, but the base unit is $600.00!!!!!!!! and each extra pipe is three to
four hundred more. And besides, I don't think I want that many hoses going
to this bog. It will only be about six feet wide. I can think of a couple
of different ways to accomplish the settling of the gunky stuff in some kind
of container buried like this one. And if it's successful, I'll sell it to
anyone here for a measly 250.00. I mean, that rubbermaid stuff gets pricey.
; ) Here's the link.

http://www.thepondprofessional.biz/c...roduct_id=1190

If anyone here can help me understand this diagram, maybe a few of us can
put our heads together to do it cheaper, and possibly better. Any help is
appreciated. I am going to also post this on garden web.

Thanks,

Ann

"Sean Dinh" wrote in message
...
According to that site, the hub must be at the lowest part of the bog.
During normal
operation, the water from a circulation/filter pump would feed into the
hub, to the
pipe, then up flow to the surface.

No, if you'll look again, I think you'll see that the supply hose goes into
the free end of the slotted pipe and then the water percolates up through
the rock like a common old septic field. When I say "pipe" I mean the
horizontal one. Is that what you mean? And, I still think you need one one
each side of the hub, except for the back side, that doesn't face the pond.
That would leave the back gravel awfully dry. The plants would only grow in
the front of it if you did that. Maybe the shape I have in mind is too
short from front to back for this design. The way I built my first bog, and
I liked it pretty well, was to run the feed pipe to the back of the bog, so
that it wets the whole gravel field to varying degrees.

In this mode, there got to be a lid on that hub to
enclose the system. Otherwise, water would not up flow through the hub,
and become
useless.

The man who is trying to sell me one of these says that the hub is really
just a clean out. He says that you scrape the gravel off the lid and remove
it about once a year. When you do this, all it supposedly requires is to
drop a sump pump in and such out the yuck. It's true that you have to have
a lid, but it's just to keep out the rocks until you open it to clean it,
and so you can bury it out of sight.

During cleaning/draining operation, the water from the circulation pump is
stopped.
The lid would be removed. The water would now down flow to the pipe, then
to the hub.
A sump pump is inserted down the hub, to drain the bog.

Hmmm... well, at first, I didn't get much of that at all. But as I was
typing out my confusion, It started to make sense. I guess you mean that
the water would "fall" out of the rock, and down into the slotted pipe and
into the chamber. (And is there a valve between the hose and pump, so that
you don't get back-wash into the pond? And, will the sump get the dirty
water out of the hose? It doesn't seem like there's enough of a vacuum for
that.) That part is clearer to me now, but I still have some trouble with
what you wrote at the beginning. It doesn't matter though, because the last
part clears up the worst of the confusion for me. And, besides, if that's
what you're telling me, how does the water keep from puddling up just a
little, under the pipe, where it's solid? Of course it has to be solid
there, but it still looks like it would make a problem. Do you like this
design?
Here's the link again for anyone who wants to go there w/o having to scroll
down into the quoted op.
http://www.thepondprofessional.biz/c...roduct_id=1190

Now, having stumbled through all that, don't you think it would be
relatively easy to build something like this for under a hundred dollars?
Or, after seeing a reference in another post to a bottom drain in a veggie
filter, I am now mulling that idea over - the drain, not the vf - since this
bog will be raised up off the ground by about fourteen inches and there is
an existing ground drain immediately behind it. It just seems like $600.00
would buy a lot of liner, rock and plants for my new pond around the corner
from this one that I am trying to improve.
I think I'll start working on trying to describe the germ of my drain
idea, in another post to this thread.
Thanks, Sean,
Ann



Ann in Houston wrote:

I am planning a gravel bog addition to my koi pond. I was told about a
filter from Aquascape called the "Snorkel", which is made for this
purpose.
Supposedly, you just sink a sump in the clean out once a year or so, and
there is no need for washing the gravel. Here is a link for a similar
model
with a diagram. I don't get how the solids get to the clean out vault.
Also, I wonder how the water would disperse to the sides when it can
just go
up and then down the slope and back to the pond. They sell additional
slotted pipe sections, to put out to the sides with the vault acting as
a
hub, but the base unit is $600.00!!!!!!!! and each extra pipe is three
to
four hundred more. And besides, I don't think I want that many hoses
going
to this bog. It will only be about six feet wide. I can think of a
couple
of different ways to accomplish the settling of the gunky stuff in some
kind
of container buried like this one. And if it's successful, I'll sell it
to
anyone here for a measly 250.00. I mean, that rubbermaid stuff gets
pricey.
; ) Here's the link.


http://www.thepondprofessional.biz/c...roduct_id=1190

If anyone here can help me understand this diagram, maybe a few of us
can
put our heads together to do it cheaper, and possibly better. Any help
is
appreciated. I am going to also post this on garden web.

Thanks,

Ann

"Sean Dinh" wrote in message
...
According to that site, the hub must be at the lowest part of the bog.
During normal
operation, the water from a circulation/filter pump would feed into the
hub, to the
pipe, then up flow to the surface.

No, if you'll look again, I think you'll see that the supply hose goes into
the free end of the slotted pipe and then the water percolates up through
the rock like a common old septic field. When I say "pipe" I mean the
horizontal one. Is that what you mean? And, I still think you need one one
each side of the hub, except for the back side, that doesn't face the pond.
That would leave the back gravel awfully dry. The plants would only grow in
the front of it if you did that. Maybe the shape I have in mind is too
short from front to back for this design. The way I built my first bog, and
I liked it pretty well, was to run the feed pipe to the back of the bog, so
that it wets the whole gravel field to varying degrees.

In this mode, there got to be a lid on that hub to
enclose the system. Otherwise, water would not up flow through the hub,
and become
useless.

The man who is trying to sell me one of these says that the hub is really
just a clean out. He says that you scrape the gravel off the lid and remove
it about once a year. When you do this, all it supposedly requires is to
drop a sump pump in and such out the yuck. It's true that you have to have
a lid, but it's just to keep out the rocks until you open it to clean it,
and so you can bury it out of sight.

During cleaning/draining operation, the water from the circulation pump is
stopped.
The lid would be removed. The water would now down flow to the pipe, then
to the hub.
A sump pump is inserted down the hub, to drain the bog.

Hmmm... well, at first, I didn't get much of that at all. But as I was
typing out my confusion, It started to make sense. I guess you mean that
the water would "fall" out of the rock, and down into the slotted pipe and
into the chamber. (And is there a valve between the hose and pump, so that
you don't get back-wash into the pond? And, will the sump get the dirty
water out of the hose? It doesn't seem like there's enough of a vacuum for
that.) That part is clearer to me now, but I still have some trouble with
what you wrote at the beginning. It doesn't matter though, because the last
part clears up the worst of the confusion for me. And, besides, if that's
what you're telling me, how does the water keep from puddling up just a
little, under the pipe, where it's solid? Of course it has to be solid
there, but it still looks like it would make a problem. Do you like this
design?
Here's the link again for anyone who wants to go there w/o having to scroll
down into the quoted op.
http://www.thepondprofessional.biz/c...roduct_id=1190

Now, having stumbled through all that, don't you think it would be
relatively easy to build something like this for under a hundred dollars?
Or, after seeing a reference in another post to a bottom drain in a veggie
filter, I am now mulling that idea over - the drain, not the vf - since this
bog will be raised up off the ground by about fourteen inches and there is
an existing ground drain immediately behind it. It just seems like $600.00
would buy a lot of liner, rock and plants for my new pond around the corner
from this one that I am trying to improve.
I think I'll start working on trying to describe the germ of my drain
idea, in another post to this thread.
Thanks, Sean,
Ann



Ann in Houston wrote:

I am planning a gravel bog addition to my koi pond. I was told about a
filter from Aquascape called the "Snorkel", which is made for this
purpose.
Supposedly, you just sink a sump in the clean out once a year or so, and
there is no need for washing the gravel. Here is a link for a similar
model
with a diagram. I don't get how the solids get to the clean out vault.
Also, I wonder how the water would disperse to the sides when it can
just go
up and then down the slope and back to the pond. They sell additional
slotted pipe sections, to put out to the sides with the vault acting as
a
hub, but the base unit is $600.00!!!!!!!! and each extra pipe is three
to
four hundred more. And besides, I don't think I want that many hoses
going
to this bog. It will only be about six feet wide. I can think of a
couple
of different ways to accomplish the settling of the gunky stuff in some
kind
of container buried like this one. And if it's successful, I'll sell it
to
anyone here for a measly 250.00. I mean, that rubbermaid stuff gets
pricey.
; ) Here's the link.


http://www.thepondprofessional.biz/c...roduct_id=1190

If anyone here can help me understand this diagram, maybe a few of us
can
put our heads together to do it cheaper, and possibly better. Any help
is
appreciated. I am going to also post this on garden web.

Thanks,

Ann

Okay, here's my first attempt at the drain design, as I see it. Remember,
the pond being fed and filtered by this bog has a raised edge of a little
more than a foot. This bog will have to be raised high enough for the
return water to flow over the back edge and into the pond. If the
foundation I described doesn't raise it high enough, I'll know before I
start installing the liner.
First, there will be a "foundation" of those flat, concrete pads, about
fourteen inches square. On those will be a "solid" floor of cinder blocks,
for height. Then, a perimeter on three sides, of more cinder blocks -
stacked two high - to hold the sides of the liner up. If I left an opening
between the cinder blocks in the center, I could set in a pan (picture
something like one of those oil change thingies that are enclosed with an
opening on the side) to use as a settling tank for solids that would run
down to the bottom of the bog, just by gravity, and run a pipe from the
opening in the side of the chamber, and out the back of the structure. We
already have a ground drain right there. If I cover the sides of the blocks
and just leave the end of the pipe exposed, it won't show much. Plus, it
would usually be capped. The small amount of water that would fill the
settling chamber and pipe would not matter to the function of the bog. Then,
when it was time to clean the bog, I could just uncap the pipe at the back,
and run a water hose into the bog to wash the dirty water down and out the
back, to the ground drain.

Now, up in the gravel field itself is buried a shallow plastic colander that
has had the holes enlarged just a little, so that those holes are still
smaller than the gravel size. It is upside down over the drain hole, to keep
the rocks out of the pipe and drain. The drain would be in a low spot formed
by something like sandbags sitting hidden under the liner and arranged to
form a shallow funnel shape.

The necessary blocks, sandbags, liner, bulkhead, pipe and rocks, wouldn't
cost nearly what one of those ready made systems would cost and would be
even easier to clean. Does my description make sense? Does anyone see any
structural or filtering flaw in my design? I really hope I can get this set
up for easy maintenance. Please contribute any comments, pro or con.

Okay, here's my first attempt at the drain design, as I see it. Remember,
the pond being fed and filtered by this bog has a raised edge of a little
more than a foot. This bog will have to be raised high enough for the
return water to flow over the back edge and into the pond. If the
foundation I described doesn't raise it high enough, I'll know before I
start installing the liner.
First, there will be a "foundation" of those flat, concrete pads, about
fourteen inches square. On those will be a "solid" floor of cinder blocks,
for height. Then, a perimeter on three sides, of more cinder blocks -
stacked two high - to hold the sides of the liner up. If I left an opening
between the cinder blocks in the center, I could set in a pan (picture
something like one of those oil change thingies that are enclosed with an
opening on the side) to use as a settling tank for solids that would run
down to the bottom of the bog, just by gravity, and run a pipe from the
opening in the side of the chamber, and out the back of the structure. We
already have a ground drain right there. If I cover the sides of the blocks
and just leave the end of the pipe exposed, it won't show much. Plus, it
would usually be capped. The small amount of water that would fill the
settling chamber and pipe would not matter to the function of the bog. Then,
when it was time to clean the bog, I could just uncap the pipe at the back,
and run a water hose into the bog to wash the dirty water down and out the
back, to the ground drain.

Now, up in the gravel field itself is buried a shallow plastic colander that
has had the holes enlarged just a little, so that those holes are still
smaller than the gravel size. It is upside down over the drain hole, to keep
the rocks out of the pipe and drain. The drain would be in a low spot formed
by something like sandbags sitting hidden under the liner and arranged to
form a shallow funnel shape.

The necessary blocks, sandbags, liner, bulkhead, pipe and rocks, wouldn't
cost nearly what one of those ready made systems would cost and would be
even easier to clean. Does my description make sense? Does anyone see any
structural or filtering flaw in my design? I really hope I can get this set
up for easy maintenance. Please contribute any comments, pro or con.

"Ann in Houston" wrote in message
. com...
much snippage
Now, having stumbled through all that, don't you think it would be
relatively easy to build something like this for under a hundred dollars?

Hi,
Have used this type of system for years and it works. You are correct that
it can be made for much less money. I don't see how all the 'mud' could be
removed using this particular setup although lots of it would be. In reality
only a complete removel of the stones would get it all.
Our system http://pondworld.com/filter.html has the water pumped to the
bottom of the plant filter where it is released through slotted PVC pipes
which were cut on a double bladed radial arm saw. We do them as needed. To
clean the PF we use our own system which connects another pump to the
opposite end of the slotted PVC and we inject clean water though the gravel
from the top.
The PF on the pond at our site is large but the same thing is easily built
for smaller setups.

hth -_- how
to reply remember no NEWS is good

"Ann in Houston" wrote in message
. com...
much snippage
Now, having stumbled through all that, don't you think it would be
relatively easy to build something like this for under a hundred dollars?

Hi,
Have used this type of system for years and it works. You are correct that
it can be made for much less money. I don't see how all the 'mud' could be
removed using this particular setup although lots of it would be. In reality
only a complete removel of the stones would get it all.
Our system http://pondworld.com/filter.html has the water pumped to the
bottom of the plant filter where it is released through slotted PVC pipes
which were cut on a double bladed radial arm saw. We do them as needed. To
clean the PF we use our own system which connects another pump to the
opposite end of the slotted PVC and we inject clean water though the gravel
from the top.
The PF on the pond at our site is large but the same thing is easily built
for smaller setups.

hth -_- how
to reply remember no NEWS is good

Hi Ann,

There are a million easy, cheap ways to get water through some sort of
mechanical filter and nutrient removal system. You should be able to do it
very inexpensively. 'Professional' generally means that they will think
about it and then you pay them for doing design and perhaps labor for you.
The design is generally easy and labor is labor...ours or someone else's.

We use kiddie pools in sequence to get settlement. The plant roots
mechanically filter.

NO gravel! It is a huge pain to clean. We have 2" drains in the bottom of
the kiddie pools. Once a year they are opened to drain the muck out of the
ponds. Then pond water sprayed over the plant tops to complete the flush.
When we have totaly clean veggie filter pools, without any siphoning, ever.
If you can plumb the drains in, it really is pretty basic and cheap.

They are not a bog, they are 12" ponds with plants sticking out. They are
on the berm beyond the main pond. You can see them on our website.

Again, we avoid gravel totally as it grabs so much muck.

Good luck.
____________________________________________

--
____________________________________________
See our pond at: home.bellsouth.net\p\pwp-jameshurley
Ask me about Jog-A-Thon fundraiser (clears $120+ per child) at: jogathon.net

"Ann in Houston" wrote in message
om...
I am planning a gravel bog addition to my koi pond. I was told about a
filter from Aquascape called the "Snorkel", which is made for this
purpose.
Supposedly, you just sink a sump in the clean out once a year or so, and
there is no need for washing the gravel. Here is a link for a similar
model
with a diagram. I don't get how the solids get to the clean out vault.
Also, I wonder how the water would disperse to the sides when it can just
go
up and then down the slope and back to the pond. They sell additional
slotted pipe sections, to put out to the sides with the vault acting as a
hub, but the base unit is $600.00!!!!!!!! and each extra pipe is three to
four hundred more. And besides, I don't think I want that many hoses
going
to this bog. It will only be about six feet wide. I can think of a
couple
of different ways to accomplish the settling of the gunky stuff in some
kind
of container buried like this one. And if it's successful, I'll sell it
to
anyone here for a measly 250.00. I mean, that rubbermaid stuff gets
pricey.
; ) Here's the link.


http://www.thepondprofessional.biz/c...roduct_id=1190

If anyone here can help me understand this diagram, maybe a few of us can
put our heads together to do it cheaper, and possibly better. Any help is
appreciated. I am going to also post this on garden web.

Thanks,

Ann