Stubborn pH that won't go down

My pH is around 9 and I cannot get it to go down. In about a week's
time I've put in 3 bottles of Beckett pH Lower and now I've been adding
a granular pH reducer with no success.

The pond is roughly 3600 gallons. Even though the pond is about 3
weeks old and young ponds can show screwy pH values, I cannot explain
the failure to reduce the pH because:
1) Ammonia level is 0
2) Total Alkalinity is around 100 (the tester shows a color that's
about halfway between the one for 80 and the next for 120)
3) The rock border is not limestone. I don't know what it is, but I
ensured that the rocks that I bought were not limestone.

Sometimes the pH is a bit lower in the morning and I finally think that
the pH is finally going to a good value but in the afternoon I'm back
up to 9. It might actually be higher since 9 is the highest my tester
will go.

I have several plants that are potted in the sandy Florida soil and I
cover the pots with that standard tan gravel found at Lowes. Some of
my pots are on bricks, but bricks are made from clay and that's not
known for changing pH values like concrete block.

Some of my plants seem to be suffering from the high pH values. The
new leaves on my Water Hyacinths have turned yellow and some other
plants and aborb their nutrients directly from the water are not
looking too good.

I'm starting to get angry about this and I'm dumping larger quantities
of pH reducer in the pond. I'm afraid that something might be
preventing these chemicals from doing what they're supposed to be doing
then all of a sudden my pH will drop to 5!

What's going on?

"scs0" wrote in message
oups.com...
My pH is around 9 and I cannot get it to go down. In about a week's
time I've put in 3 bottles of Beckett pH Lower and now I've been adding
a granular pH reducer with no success.

The pond is roughly 3600 gallons. Even though the pond is about 3
weeks old and young ponds can show screwy pH values, I cannot explain
the failure to reduce the pH because:
1) Ammonia level is 0
2) Total Alkalinity is around 100 (the tester shows a color that's
about halfway between the one for 80 and the next for 120)
3) The rock border is not limestone. I don't know what it is, but I
ensured that the rocks that I bought were not limestone.

Sometimes the pH is a bit lower in the morning and I finally think that
the pH is finally going to a good value but in the afternoon I'm back
up to 9. It might actually be higher since 9 is the highest my tester
will go.

I have several plants that are potted in the sandy Florida soil and I
cover the pots with that standard tan gravel found at Lowes. Some of
my pots are on bricks, but bricks are made from clay and that's not
known for changing pH values like concrete block.

Some of my plants seem to be suffering from the high pH values. The
new leaves on my Water Hyacinths have turned yellow and some other
plants and aborb their nutrients directly from the water are not
looking too good.

I'm starting to get angry about this and I'm dumping larger quantities
of pH reducer in the pond. I'm afraid that something might be
preventing these chemicals from doing what they're supposed to be doing
then all of a sudden my pH will drop to 5!

What's going on?

How is your pond constructed? Is it made of concrete? If it is, you should
have sealed the concrete before using it. The calcium hydroxide in the concrete
will leach into the water and will cause a very high pH. If it is not concrete,
you should test the pH of your tap water. If it is in the 7 range, then I would
do a 50% water change, but do it slowly if you have animals in the pond. If the
tap water also has a very high pH, I would contact your local water company
because a pH of 9 in tap water is hazardous. I don't like adding pH reducers to
any aquatic system. I prefer to make incremental pH changes by changing the
water over time. Of course, if you have no fish or other animals in the pond,
making a significant pH change isn't going to hurt much of anything. I'm also
wondering about the pH of the sand you use for your plants. Some Florida sands
have a very high pH because they are ocean sands, or derivitives thereof. If
you have any unused sand lying around, you should test the pH of this sand. It
could be your culprit. Finally, I wouldn't use sand for water plants anyway.
You should use a heavy clay or a clay/gravel mix.

scs0 wrote:

My pH is around 9 and I cannot get it to go down. In about a week's
time I've put in 3 bottles of Beckett pH Lower and now I've been adding
a granular pH reducer with no success.

The pond is roughly 3600 gallons. Even though the pond is about 3
weeks old and young ponds can show screwy pH values, I cannot explain
the failure to reduce the pH because:

What on earth is the point of even _thinking_ about pH in a three week old
pond? In another three weeks, whether you do anything or not, the pH will
be different, anyway. Give it some time to settle, _then_ worry about pH.

In any even, "pH Down", "pH Lower", or any of those things seem to have just
about zero effect on ponds.

If your alkilinity isn't changing, you haven't added enough acid to move the
pH anyway.

As for the fact that the "rock border is not limestone", you'd have been
better off if it was. Limestone won't raise your pH to anything your fish
or plants can't handle, and it helps cut down on swings. There's nothing
wrong with a pH of 8 to 8.5.

'm starting to get angry about this and I'm dumping larger quantities
of pH reducer in the pond.**I'm*afraid*that*something*might*be
preventing these chemicals from doing what they're supposed to be doing
then all of a sudden my pH will drop to 5!

Probably.
--
derek

My pond is made from an EPDM liner so concrete construction is not an
issue. I'm glad you asked about the tap water pH because I forgot to
mention that, I tested the pH last week and it was in the 7-8 range. I
forget what it was but it was something pretty typical like 7.2 or 7.4.
Over the weekend I finished up some work on the pond and filled it
with an additional ~400 gallons or so of water. This was a combination
of tap water and rainwater that poured on Saturday and I'm still having
problems.

I'm not sure what my sand's pH would be, I'm not right on the coast
but I suppose the entire peninsula was right on the coast at one time
or another. I would love to use clay soil. Up north I saw some native
ponds that had a clay bottom and the smooth heavy texture seemed
perfect for aquatic plants but I haven't been able to find clay
anywhere. I've tried big outlets like Lowes and Home Depot. I've
tried smaller nurseries, I tried two rock & gravel yards, and I've
tried water garden speciality places and nobody sells clay. I always
read about people using clay for aquatic plants but no one ever reveals
the secret on where to buy it! I'm afraid of using kitty litter
because I don't feel secure that its added perfumes and other additives
would be safe in a pond with plants and fish.

I tried an aquatic plant soil once, I think it was Scotts, and it was
horrible. I had expected it to be granular clay that would disolve
when wet, but the light chunks didn't dissolve at all. It was like
trying to pot an aquatic plant in styrofoam balls. The stuff was too
light and therefore had pitiful holding power. I can't believe its
still on the market.

Oh, and my pots aren't completely sand. I noticed that gravel always
seems to sink into the planting medium so since gravel makes an
adequate potting medium I mixed gravel into the pots. (It's probably a
75% sand to 25% gravel ratio though)

There's nothing wrong with
a pH of 8 to 8.5.

I've heard that high pH values aren't bad for fish, but I read that
plants have a difficult time absorbing nurtients with a pH above 7.8 -
especially the free floating ones. My Hyacinths are looking pretty
sad and from what I read a high pH will cause the symptoms that I have
seen with them.

Maybe I am being a little too worried over this. The fish seem happy
and the rooted aquatic plants are growing, since I live in Florida I
will always have easy access to water hyacinths anytime I want them so
maybe I should hold off on playing with the pH for a few more weeks.

"scs0" wrote in message
oups.com...
My pond is made from an EPDM liner so concrete construction is not an
issue. I'm glad you asked about the tap water pH because I forgot to
mention that, I tested the pH last week and it was in the 7-8 range. I
forget what it was but it was something pretty typical like 7.2 or 7.4.
Over the weekend I finished up some work on the pond and filled it
with an additional ~400 gallons or so of water. This was a combination
of tap water and rainwater that poured on Saturday and I'm still having
problems.

I'm not sure what my sand's pH would be, I'm not right on the coast
but I suppose the entire peninsula was right on the coast at one time
or another. I would love to use clay soil. Up north I saw some native
ponds that had a clay bottom and the smooth heavy texture seemed
perfect for aquatic plants but I haven't been able to find clay
anywhere. I've tried big outlets like Lowes and Home Depot. I've
tried smaller nurseries, I tried two rock & gravel yards, and I've
tried water garden speciality places and nobody sells clay. I always
read about people using clay for aquatic plants but no one ever reveals
the secret on where to buy it! I'm afraid of using kitty litter
because I don't feel secure that its added perfumes and other additives
would be safe in a pond with plants and fish.

I tried an aquatic plant soil once, I think it was Scotts, and it was
horrible. I had expected it to be granular clay that would disolve
when wet, but the light chunks didn't dissolve at all. It was like
trying to pot an aquatic plant in styrofoam balls. The stuff was too
light and therefore had pitiful holding power. I can't believe its
still on the market.

Oh, and my pots aren't completely sand. I noticed that gravel always
seems to sink into the planting medium so since gravel makes an
adequate potting medium I mixed gravel into the pots. (It's probably a
75% sand to 25% gravel ratio though)

Hmmm. I suspect that it may be the Florida sand you are using, but I could be
wrong. You should check the pH. If you don't have a pH kit for soil, you can
take a fresh sample of the sand (not from the pots), and mix it with tap water
in a small glass or jar (check the pH of the tap water first). Let the mixture
sit for a few hours (one day might be better), then check the pH of the water.
If it is in the same range or higher than your pond water, you've likely found
your culprit. You can use bentonite clay as a substrate for plants, which you
should be able to get at the building materials section of Lowes. Sometimes it
comes in bags like concrete, and sometimes it comes in 5-gallon buckets. It's
pretty cheap. Oh, I almost forgot. When using bentonite, it is a good idea to
mix it with water in a small tub or other container. Mix it a little at a time
because bentonite absorbs water like crazy and will swell to 20 times its dry
volume. I have mixed a cup at a time with good results. The stuff will be very
slippery and icky to touch. Once it has completely swelled as much as it is
going to, then you can mix some gravel in with it and then plant your plants in
the pot you are going to use, using the bentonite/gravel mixture for the
substrate. Good luck.

~George~
________________________
Here is a quicktime movie of my albino catfish beeing fed last year. He's much
bigger now:

http://home.insightbb.com/~jryates/catfish_eating.MOV

"scs0" wrote in message
oups.com...
My pond is made from an EPDM liner so concrete construction is not an
issue. I'm glad you asked about the tap water pH because I forgot to
mention that, I tested the pH last week and it was in the 7-8 range. I
forget what it was but it was something pretty typical like 7.2 or 7.4.
Over the weekend I finished up some work on the pond and filled it
with an additional ~400 gallons or so of water. This was a combination
of tap water and rainwater that poured on Saturday and I'm still having
problems.

I'm not sure what my sand's pH would be, I'm not right on the coast
but I suppose the entire peninsula was right on the coast at one time
or another. I would love to use clay soil. Up north I saw some native
ponds that had a clay bottom and the smooth heavy texture seemed
perfect for aquatic plants but I haven't been able to find clay
anywhere. I've tried big outlets like Lowes and Home Depot. I've
tried smaller nurseries, I tried two rock & gravel yards, and I've
tried water garden speciality places and nobody sells clay. I always
read about people using clay for aquatic plants but no one ever reveals
the secret on where to buy it! I'm afraid of using kitty litter
because I don't feel secure that its added perfumes and other additives
would be safe in a pond with plants and fish.

## I never saw "clay" soil for sale. I dig it up right behind my house.
Clay soil is just a dense fine particle soil. It also works it's way out of
the pots and all over the pond. It's like mustard when wet. Pond plants
do thrive in it though. For regular gardening I have to add sand and loads
of compost.

I tried an aquatic plant soil once, I think it was Scotts, and it was
horrible. I had expected it to be granular clay that would disolve
when wet, but the light chunks didn't dissolve at all. It was like
trying to pot an aquatic plant in styrofoam balls. The stuff was too
light and therefore had pitiful holding power. I can't believe its
still on the market.

## Whatever sells......

Oh, and my pots aren't completely sand. I noticed that gravel always
seems to sink into the planting medium so since gravel makes an
adequate potting medium I mixed gravel into the pots. (It's probably a
75% sand to 25% gravel ratio though)
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"scs0" wrote in message
oups.com...
There's nothing wrong with
a pH of 8 to 8.5.

I've heard that high pH values aren't bad for fish, but I read that
plants have a difficult time absorbing nurtients with a pH above 7.8 -
especially the free floating ones. My Hyacinths are looking pretty
sad and from what I read a high pH will cause the symptoms that I have
seen with them.

## Potash perks mine right up! I heaping TBS per 1000 gallons of water.

Maybe I am being a little too worried over this. The fish seem happy
and the rooted aquatic plants are growing, since I live in Florida I
will always have easy access to water hyacinths anytime I want them so
maybe I should hold off on playing with the pH for a few more weeks.

## I don't even bother to check mine anymore. :-)
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
be silent, is the best answer to calumny."
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

scs0 wrote:
My pond is made from an EPDM liner so concrete construction is not an
issue. I'm glad you asked about the tap water pH because I forgot to
mention that, I tested the pH last week and it was in the 7-8 range. I
forget what it was but it was something pretty typical like 7.2 or 7.4.
Over the weekend I finished up some work on the pond and filled it
with an additional ~400 gallons or so of water. This was a combination
of tap water and rainwater that poured on Saturday and I'm still having
problems.

I'm not sure what my sand's pH would be, I'm not right on the coast
but I suppose the entire peninsula was right on the coast at one time
or another. I would love to use clay soil. Up north I saw some native
ponds that had a clay bottom and the smooth heavy texture seemed
perfect for aquatic plants but I haven't been able to find clay
anywhere. I've tried big outlets like Lowes and Home Depot. I've
tried smaller nurseries, I tried two rock & gravel yards, and I've
tried water garden speciality places and nobody sells clay. I always
read about people using clay for aquatic plants but no one ever reveals
the secret on where to buy it! I'm afraid of using kitty litter
because I don't feel secure that its added perfumes and other additives
would be safe in a pond with plants and fish.

I tried an aquatic plant soil once, I think it was Scotts, and it was
horrible. I had expected it to be granular clay that would disolve
when wet, but the light chunks didn't dissolve at all. It was like
trying to pot an aquatic plant in styrofoam balls. The stuff was too
light and therefore had pitiful holding power. I can't believe its
still on the market.

Oh, and my pots aren't completely sand. I noticed that gravel always
seems to sink into the planting medium so since gravel makes an
adequate potting medium I mixed gravel into the pots. (It's probably a
75% sand to 25% gravel ratio though)

If you still have some pH Down, drop a few drops of it on your rocks,
sand, etc. You'll see bubbles as strong acid reacts with carbonate
minerals if they are going to dissolve and change your pH. It's an
easier test than trying to actually pH test a mineral.

I'm using Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil from Home Depot now. It's made
from a porous inert ceramic, and comes in fine gravel sized particles.
I'm having no problems with it holding down my plants - I even have some
watercress rooting in it. Maybe you'd like it better than Scotts.

I've had the same problem as you finding plain clay kitty liter. I
can't find anything that doesn't contain perfume or bacteriocides and
they're all labeled "not for garden use."

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

## I never saw "clay" soil for sale. I dig it up right behind my house.
Clay soil is just a dense fine particle soil. It also works it's way out of
the pots and all over the pond. It's like mustard when wet. Pond plants
do thrive in it though. For regular gardening I have to add sand and loads
of compost.

Not likely to be much clay soil where he lives in Florida.