Marc-Total Dissolved Solids

Was it Total Dissolved Solids that you said to test for to see if your
RO unit is working properly? If so what brand of test kit do you
recommend? Will spa tests work fine if I can get them locally?

Why again do you not recommend the flush kit?

And finally is it warm water that makes for better production or cold
water? I thought warm. And if so is it worth while to make some sort
of mixing system to warm the water? The water I'm running through is
very cold up here in Iowa. Probably 40 deg.

And again thanks for the unit.

Ct Midnite

http://www.geocities.com/ctmidnite53/

Hi Ct,

With a Hanna TDS Meter, you can test your Total Disolved Solids in your source
water, your RO output, and your DI output. If your DI output is higher than
your RO output, the DI is spent and needs to be replaced.

If you want to test your carbon filters, check for Chlorine on your RO output
(or DI, but not necessary). If it is higher than 0, the carbon is spent and
needs to be replaced.

If your general output is slower than you would expect this time of year, your
Sediment filter may be clogged. Rule of Thumb is to replace it every 6 months.
Please replace it with a 5 micron filter, not a .5 micron. The 5 micron will
grab out all the larger particles, but the .5 will simply clog up much much
faster. Unless you just want to replace that every month, that is.

I've done some checking on flush kits, and everything I've found on the topic
seems to indicate it is more hype than benefit. It does not rinse the RO
membrane in any form or fashion. Others may have more comments on it. It isn't
difficult to install one, but I just don't see the need.

Your source water is the cold water line. Ideally, output is optimal at 76F, so
with your colder source water the output will be slower. If you can coil about
25' of tubing in a bucket of water, and put in an aquarium heater to keep the
bucket water at 76F, your RO/DI's output should be relatively close to best
conditions, assuming your TDS aren't off the chart.

Marc


Ct Midnite wrote:

Was it Total Dissolved Solids that you said to test for to see if your
RO unit is working properly? If so what brand of test kit do you
recommend? Will spa tests work fine if I can get them locally?

Why again do you not recommend the flush kit?

And finally is it warm water that makes for better production or cold
water? I thought warm. And if so is it worth while to make some sort
of mixing system to warm the water? The water I'm running through is
very cold up here in Iowa. Probably 40 deg.

And again thanks for the unit.

Ct Midnite

http://www.geocities.com/ctmidnite53/

--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

[snip]
I've done some checking on flush kits, and everything I've found on the
topic
seems to indicate it is more hype than benefit. It does not rinse the RO
membrane in any form or fashion. Others may have more comments on it. It
isn't
difficult to install one, but I just don't see the need.

[/snip]
It better to flush it, the membrane will last longer. You do not want bad
water to sit there to long.
A flush kit will reduce waste ratio, especially in low TDS while maintaining
or improving systemTDS reject rate and extending membrane. The auto flush
flushes the system for 18 seconds every hour removing damaging particulates
from the membrane surface prolonging its life and rejection quality.

CapFusion,...

I hate to disagree with you Cap but saying the flush kit will do anything at
all is just (pardon my French) a bunch-ah-****.

that would be like saying if I took a garden hose and turned it on full
stream then went and stabbed a hole in the middle of the hose to allow water
to come out, that the water coming out the end would be cleaner water.

the flush kit does not flush anything, it just allows more water to pass
around (not inside) the membrane housing.

kc

"CapFusion" wrote in message
...
[snip]
I've done some checking on flush kits, and everything I've found on the
topic
seems to indicate it is more hype than benefit. It does not rinse the
RO
membrane in any form or fashion. Others may have more comments on it.
It
isn't
difficult to install one, but I just don't see the need.

[/snip]
It better to flush it, the membrane will last longer. You do not want bad
water to sit there to long.
A flush kit will reduce waste ratio, especially in low TDS while
maintaining
or improving systemTDS reject rate and extending membrane. The auto flush
flushes the system for 18 seconds every hour removing damaging
particulates
from the membrane surface prolonging its life and rejection quality.

CapFusion,...

Um, a general reply...

1) Simple "pass/fail" quality monitors a good addition to
RO. Particularly if you have a TFC membrane that you allow
to get eaten away by chlorine from an expended carbon
pre-filter.

2) Cold water produces more RO. I believe the reason is
less brownian motion. "Optimum" would be 1C.

3) Flush kits do not bypass the membrane, they bypass the
flow limiter.

4) Flush kits force a high flow of water across the dirty
water side of the membrane. This "shears" debris from the
surface, clearing pores, and prolonging life.

If you've ever flushed an old membrane, for the first time,
you'd be amazed at the gray goo that comes out of them. If
you can see it, and it was stuck "in there", it was/is
surely interfering with the membrane process.

5) I'm not sure what people have "found", but I assure you a
properly used $5 Flush valve is a worthy business decision,
relative to the extended life it brings to $50 membranes.
Payback is had on the very first membrane.

6) Auto-flush kits are quite expensive, you have to extend
your $50 membrane double, or triple, the expected life cycle
to pay for the $80 auto-flush kit. It might be a good
investment, but unlike the $5 deal, you'd really have to sit
down and do the math.

7) Flushing improves TDS rejection, slightly. RO works by
moving water tangentially across the membrane, 90 degrees
across the pore structure, at a given rate. Debris can slow
that flow locally, and solids will be able to force their
way through the pores.

8) RO's that produce many small batches, rather than one big
batch, are slightly dirtier. When idle, solids will migrate
to the clean side because there is no tangential flow to
"bounce them along". When RO flow starts, there is a short
peak of "dirty" water. The longer it sits, the closer to
the input water the peak will be.

9) A flush kit will improve waste ratio. The flow limiter
always dumps the same amount of water, in ml per minute. A
clogged membrane will let fewer ml per minute pass than a
clean one.

**************************
Dragon Slayer wrote:
I hate to disagree with you Cap but saying the flush kit will do anything at
all is just (pardon my French) a bunch-ah-****.

that would be like saying if I took a garden hose and turned it on full
stream then went and stabbed a hole in the middle of the hose to allow water
to come out, that the water coming out the end would be cleaner water.

the flush kit does not flush anything, it just allows more water to pass
around (not inside) the membrane housing.

kc

"CapFusion" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I've done some checking on flush kits, and everything I've found on the

topic

seems to indicate it is more hype than benefit. It does not rinse the

RO

membrane in any form or fashion. Others may have more comments on it.

It

isn't

difficult to install one, but I just don't see the need.


[/snip]
It better to flush it, the membrane will last longer. You do not want bad
water to sit there to long.
A flush kit will reduce waste ratio, especially in low TDS while

maintaining

or improving systemTDS reject rate and extending membrane. The auto flush
flushes the system for 18 seconds every hour removing damaging

particulates

from the membrane surface prolonging its life and rejection quality.

CapFusion,...

Man.... I wish I could have explain better or get better article to describe
it.
Oh well....

CapFusion,...


"Bill Kirkpatrick" wrote in message
...
Um, a general reply...

1) Simple "pass/fail" quality monitors a good addition to
RO. Particularly if you have a TFC membrane that you allow
to get eaten away by chlorine from an expended carbon
pre-filter.

2) Cold water produces more RO. I believe the reason is
less brownian motion. "Optimum" would be 1C.

3) Flush kits do not bypass the membrane, they bypass the
flow limiter.

4) Flush kits force a high flow of water across the dirty
water side of the membrane. This "shears" debris from the
surface, clearing pores, and prolonging life.

If you've ever flushed an old membrane, for the first time,
you'd be amazed at the gray goo that comes out of them. If
you can see it, and it was stuck "in there", it was/is
surely interfering with the membrane process.

5) I'm not sure what people have "found", but I assure you a
properly used $5 Flush valve is a worthy business decision,
relative to the extended life it brings to $50 membranes.
Payback is had on the very first membrane.

6) Auto-flush kits are quite expensive, you have to extend
your $50 membrane double, or triple, the expected life cycle
to pay for the $80 auto-flush kit. It might be a good
investment, but unlike the $5 deal, you'd really have to sit
down and do the math.

7) Flushing improves TDS rejection, slightly. RO works by
moving water tangentially across the membrane, 90 degrees
across the pore structure, at a given rate. Debris can slow
that flow locally, and solids will be able to force their
way through the pores.

8) RO's that produce many small batches, rather than one big
batch, are slightly dirtier. When idle, solids will migrate
to the clean side because there is no tangential flow to
"bounce them along". When RO flow starts, there is a short
peak of "dirty" water. The longer it sits, the closer to
the input water the peak will be.

9) A flush kit will improve waste ratio. The flow limiter
always dumps the same amount of water, in ml per minute. A
clogged membrane will let fewer ml per minute pass than a
clean one.

**************************
Dragon Slayer wrote:
I hate to disagree with you Cap but saying the flush kit will do
anything at
all is just (pardon my French) a bunch-ah-****.

that would be like saying if I took a garden hose and turned it on full
stream then went and stabbed a hole in the middle of the hose to allow
water
to come out, that the water coming out the end would be cleaner water.

the flush kit does not flush anything, it just allows more water to pass
around (not inside) the membrane housing.

kc

"CapFusion" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I've done some checking on flush kits, and everything I've found on the

topic

seems to indicate it is more hype than benefit. It does not rinse the

RO

membrane in any form or fashion. Others may have more comments on it.

It

isn't

difficult to install one, but I just don't see the need.


[/snip]
It better to flush it, the membrane will last longer. You do not want
bad
water to sit there to long.
A flush kit will reduce waste ratio, especially in low TDS while

maintaining

or improving systemTDS reject rate and extending membrane. The auto
flush
flushes the system for 18 seconds every hour removing damaging

particulates

from the membrane surface prolonging its life and rejection quality.

CapFusion,...

KC, normally do not need to use a flush kit if your RO is in constantly
using it.

Taking your example by using a garden hose and make a hole in the middle.
Well, if you can cap or close the output of your garden hose, the garden
hose will gather somewhat of debris or dirt particle. Since inside the
garden hose does not have any filter or barrier, it will not gather much
dirt or debris. But if you do not make a hole in the middle of garden hose
and open the output, you might see some particle. But if you did have a hole
in the middle and the water pour out while the hose not being use but when
you open the end of the hose, you may have water comming out with less dirt
particle.

Imagine this. Put a coarse sponge or filter between the output and the hole
you made and do the above example. When you open the middle of the hose, it
will remove water and carry any possible dirt with it instead of cloggin
more to the coarse sponge or filter. This in turn will make your filter last
a bit longer.

You do not want solid to creep through your membrane spore. With Flush kit
or flush valve, you preventing solid from cloging your membrane and other
filter by reject water and at the same time removing solid instead of
creeping to your filter.

How much it will cost you to refil your filter and how much many time you
need to buy a flush kit or valve ... The idea here is to make your filter
last longer as much as possible. The solid will creep thru while water is
not moving or idling in your unit. When it the solid attach to the spore of
the filter, it will clog it. When flushing, the solid may not have attach or
clog your filter but remove when water flow out.

When you use the RO unit, your first batch or cup may have higher solid. The
reason may be some solid may have creep thru while your unit is idling. Use
a TDS meter for the first batch and test again for next batch. You will see
a bit.

Am I making any sense here or I am talking to myself?

CapFusion,...


"Dragon Slayer" wrote in message
...
I hate to disagree with you Cap but saying the flush kit will do anything
at
all is just (pardon my French) a bunch-ah-****.

that would be like saying if I took a garden hose and turned it on full
stream then went and stabbed a hole in the middle of the hose to allow
water
to come out, that the water coming out the end would be cleaner water.

the flush kit does not flush anything, it just allows more water to pass
around (not inside) the membrane housing.

kc

"CapFusion" wrote in message
...
[snip]
I've done some checking on flush kits, and everything I've found on
the
topic
seems to indicate it is more hype than benefit. It does not rinse
the
RO
membrane in any form or fashion. Others may have more comments on it.
It
isn't
difficult to install one, but I just don't see the need.

[/snip]
It better to flush it, the membrane will last longer. You do not want
bad
water to sit there to long.
A flush kit will reduce waste ratio, especially in low TDS while
maintaining
or improving systemTDS reject rate and extending membrane. The auto
flush
flushes the system for 18 seconds every hour removing damaging
particulates
from the membrane surface prolonging its life and rejection quality.

CapFusion,...

I understand compleatly why the first bit of water through the membrane is
not as pure as the latter and it has a higher TDS. but the flush kit
doesn't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to cleaning the membrane.

and with Bill Kirkpatricks explanation in mind I took the restrictor off my
old unit (has never been flushed in the 2 yrs it has been in service) I then
allowed the waste water to 'flush' over some filter floss and it didn't have
any gray or any other color junk from build up.

I sent pics of my sediment filter to Marc when I swapped it out, I think he
could testify that if there would have been a build up on my membrane from
not flushing it over those 2 yrs, I would have defiantly been able to see it
when I flushed it.

kc

"CapFusion" wrote in message
...
KC, normally do not need to use a flush kit if your RO is in constantly
using it.

Taking your example by using a garden hose and make a hole in the middle.
Well, if you can cap or close the output of your garden hose, the garden
hose will gather somewhat of debris or dirt particle. Since inside the
garden hose does not have any filter or barrier, it will not gather much
dirt or debris. But if you do not make a hole in the middle of garden hose
and open the output, you might see some particle. But if you did have a
hole
in the middle and the water pour out while the hose not being use but when
you open the end of the hose, you may have water comming out with less
dirt
particle.

Imagine this. Put a coarse sponge or filter between the output and the
hole
you made and do the above example. When you open the middle of the hose,
it
will remove water and carry any possible dirt with it instead of cloggin
more to the coarse sponge or filter. This in turn will make your filter
last
a bit longer.

You do not want solid to creep through your membrane spore. With Flush kit
or flush valve, you preventing solid from cloging your membrane and other
filter by reject water and at the same time removing solid instead of
creeping to your filter.

How much it will cost you to refil your filter and how much many time you
need to buy a flush kit or valve ... The idea here is to make your filter
last longer as much as possible. The solid will creep thru while water is
not moving or idling in your unit. When it the solid attach to the spore
of
the filter, it will clog it. When flushing, the solid may not have attach
or
clog your filter but remove when water flow out.

When you use the RO unit, your first batch or cup may have higher solid.
The
reason may be some solid may have creep thru while your unit is idling.
Use
a TDS meter for the first batch and test again for next batch. You will
see
a bit.

Am I making any sense here or I am talking to myself?

CapFusion,...


"Dragon Slayer" wrote in message
...
I hate to disagree with you Cap but saying the flush kit will do
anything
at
all is just (pardon my French) a bunch-ah-****.

that would be like saying if I took a garden hose and turned it on full
stream then went and stabbed a hole in the middle of the hose to allow
water
to come out, that the water coming out the end would be cleaner water.

the flush kit does not flush anything, it just allows more water to pass
around (not inside) the membrane housing.

kc

"CapFusion" wrote in message
...
[snip]
I've done some checking on flush kits, and everything I've found on
the
topic
seems to indicate it is more hype than benefit. It does not rinse
the
RO
membrane in any form or fashion. Others may have more comments on
it.
It
isn't
difficult to install one, but I just don't see the need.

[/snip]
It better to flush it, the membrane will last longer. You do not want
bad
water to sit there to long.
A flush kit will reduce waste ratio, especially in low TDS while
maintaining
or improving systemTDS reject rate and extending membrane. The auto
flush
flushes the system for 18 seconds every hour removing damaging
particulates
from the membrane surface prolonging its life and rejection quality.

CapFusion,...

Yes, DS's sediment filter was virtually the color of Blood Oranges from
California.

Btw, I'm still trying to figure out (for myself I guess) why you had such issues
with the new unit. Is there any chance that your PSI guage is incorrect and
your water pressure is perhaps much much higher?

Feel free to reply in email if you like. This thing is just bugging me, and
until you are compeletely happy.... well, you know the rest.

Marc


Dragon Slayer wrote:

I understand compleatly why the first bit of water through the membrane is
not as pure as the latter and it has a higher TDS. but the flush kit
doesn't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to cleaning the membrane.

and with Bill Kirkpatricks explanation in mind I took the restrictor off my
old unit (has never been flushed in the 2 yrs it has been in service) I then
allowed the waste water to 'flush' over some filter floss and it didn't have
any gray or any other color junk from build up.

I sent pics of my sediment filter to Marc when I swapped it out, I think he
could testify that if there would have been a build up on my membrane from
not flushing it over those 2 yrs, I would have defiantly been able to see it
when I flushed it.

kc

"CapFusion" wrote in message
...
KC, normally do not need to use a flush kit if your RO is in constantly
using it.

Taking your example by using a garden hose and make a hole in the middle.
Well, if you can cap or close the output of your garden hose, the garden
hose will gather somewhat of debris or dirt particle. Since inside the
garden hose does not have any filter or barrier, it will not gather much
dirt or debris. But if you do not make a hole in the middle of garden hose
and open the output, you might see some particle. But if you did have a
hole
in the middle and the water pour out while the hose not being use but when
you open the end of the hose, you may have water comming out with less
dirt
particle.

Imagine this. Put a coarse sponge or filter between the output and the
hole
you made and do the above example. When you open the middle of the hose,
it
will remove water and carry any possible dirt with it instead of cloggin
more to the coarse sponge or filter. This in turn will make your filter
last
a bit longer.

You do not want solid to creep through your membrane spore. With Flush kit
or flush valve, you preventing solid from cloging your membrane and other
filter by reject water and at the same time removing solid instead of
creeping to your filter.

How much it will cost you to refil your filter and how much many time you
need to buy a flush kit or valve ... The idea here is to make your filter
last longer as much as possible. The solid will creep thru while water is
not moving or idling in your unit. When it the solid attach to the spore
of
the filter, it will clog it. When flushing, the solid may not have attach
or
clog your filter but remove when water flow out.

When you use the RO unit, your first batch or cup may have higher solid.
The
reason may be some solid may have creep thru while your unit is idling.
Use
a TDS meter for the first batch and test again for next batch. You will
see
a bit.

Am I making any sense here or I am talking to myself?

CapFusion,...


"Dragon Slayer" wrote in message
...
I hate to disagree with you Cap but saying the flush kit will do
anything
at
all is just (pardon my French) a bunch-ah-****.

that would be like saying if I took a garden hose and turned it on full
stream then went and stabbed a hole in the middle of the hose to allow
water
to come out, that the water coming out the end would be cleaner water.

the flush kit does not flush anything, it just allows more water to pass
around (not inside) the membrane housing.

kc

"CapFusion" wrote in message
...
[snip]
I've done some checking on flush kits, and everything I've found on
the
topic
seems to indicate it is more hype than benefit. It does not rinse
the
RO
membrane in any form or fashion. Others may have more comments on
it.
It
isn't
difficult to install one, but I just don't see the need.

[/snip]
It better to flush it, the membrane will last longer. You do not want
bad
water to sit there to long.
A flush kit will reduce waste ratio, especially in low TDS while
maintaining
or improving systemTDS reject rate and extending membrane. The auto
flush
flushes the system for 18 seconds every hour removing damaging
particulates
from the membrane surface prolonging its life and rejection quality.

CapFusion,...










--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

Btw, I'm still trying to figure out (for myself I guess) why you had such issues
with the new unit. Is there any chance that your PSI guage is incorrect and
your water pressure is perhaps much much higher?

Feel free to reply in email if you like. This thing is just bugging me, and
until you are compeletely happy.... well, you know the rest.

Marc


If you are talking to me then no, I'm completely happy. My water is
just so cold coming out you can't keep your hand in it very long. And
I had read another post somewhere that cold water was better which is
a contradiction to what else I had heard. And the TDS meter sounded
like something I needed to be thinking about and to have on hand for
when the membrane starts going bad. And any other questions I threw
in were just because I'm so damn curious.

Still learning.

Ct Midnite

http://www.geocities.com/ctmidnite53/