Angel Fish Behavior: crazy or mating?

I have two koi angel fish, both approx. 1 year old who grew up
together. Both are about 3" in the body, with substantially longer
fins. They have always bickered a lot, chased each other around the
tank, took turns being the bully. But lately their behavior has become
much stranger and intense. They spend a lot of time facing each other
and twitching, then locking lips and spinning around. Very weird. The
guy at my LFS told me that this is mating behavior and that this means
they are a pair. They are the only fish in the tank (with the exception
of a vampire pleco.) They have actually done the lip lock thing for a
long time at periodic intervals, but the twitching is new. They also
dart around the tank at breakneck speed and nip at each other quite a
bit, usually on the body (I've never noticed them nipping at each
other's fins.) Sometimes they rapidly flutter their fins and tail as
well. Their frenzy for food has also been lacking of late, and where
normally the frozen bloodworm gumball that's usually devoured in about
1.5 minutes for dinner, is only picked at over the span of an hour or
two. They have still enjoyed their frozen brine shrimp though, but I
don't think this is a good diet on its own.

I would like to hear from anyone who has had angels that acted
similarly to this, and what it means. I hope it isn't something I
should worry about; they have always been fantastically colored,
healthy, active and alert and I am quite attached to them so I want to
make sure I'm doing everything that I can to keep them that way.

TIA,
Jen

Well, not more than a couple of hours after I posted my original
message, I noticed a TON of eggs all over the java moss, which is
growing off a large piece of driftwood. I watched the fish for a couple
of hours then, and saw that actually, the female was laying her eggs
vertically, on the filter pipe! Then the male would follow her over the
eggs. I was really excited about this! The appearance of the behavior
was just very cute and sweet to watch, especially after all the
fighting. From some of the reading and research I've done, it does
appear that they are male and female, judging by not only the behavior
but by the difference of appendage, if you will, protruding from
underside of the male fish in comparison to the female. Anyway, by
morning they had eaten all the eggs I could see, but I can't imagine
tha they got ALL of them, since many were nestled quite deeply in the
tangled java moss. My pleco might've made quite a meal of them though,
since vamps are real carnivores. I will keep hope that some of the eggs
will make it on their own; I actually dreamed last night that one
morning I looked in the tank and found a few babies swimming around.
That would be really cool.
Otherwise, maybe next time I'll be more prepared and have a nursery
tank ready to pull out the eggs once they are laid and fertilized. :-)

Nikki Casali wrote:
wrote:

I have two koi angel fish, both approx. 1 year old who grew up
together. Both are about 3" in the body, with substantially longer
fins. They have always bickered a lot, chased each other around the
tank, took turns being the bully. But lately their behavior has become
much stranger and intense. They spend a lot of time facing each other
and twitching, then locking lips and spinning around. Very weird. The
guy at my LFS told me that this is mating behavior and that this means
they are a pair. They are the only fish in the tank (with the exception
of a vampire pleco.) They have actually done the lip lock thing for a
long time at periodic intervals, but the twitching is new. They also
dart around the tank at breakneck speed and nip at each other quite a
bit, usually on the body (I've never noticed them nipping at each
other's fins.) Sometimes they rapidly flutter their fins and tail as
well. Their frenzy for food has also been lacking of late, and where
normally the frozen bloodworm gumball that's usually devoured in about
1.5 minutes for dinner, is only picked at over the span of an hour or
two. They have still enjoyed their frozen brine shrimp though, but I
don't think this is a good diet on its own.

I would like to hear from anyone who has had angels that acted
similarly to this, and what it means. I hope it isn't something I
should worry about; they have always been fantastically colored,
healthy, active and alert and I am quite attached to them so I want to
make sure I'm doing everything that I can to keep them that way.

From my own experience, this seems perfectly natural. There is a
poossbility that they could harm themselves when they get too
aggressive, but I think this is rare. When mine decide to lay eggs, they
band together and turn that aggression on to the other tanks mates,
while protecting their chosen egg laying leaf.

Nikki

I have found that having something for the parents to defend the eggs
against always helps cichlids be better parents.
Even another fishtank placed with it's end to the one with the breeders in
it can work.
prob don't recognise the plec as a threat.
If you do decide to try raise the eggs yourself
get something to help prevent fungus
acriflavine works pretty well in my experience
but then so does just letting the pair try a few more times
They usually get it right in the end



wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, not more than a couple of hours after I posted my original
message, I noticed a TON of eggs all over the java moss, which is
growing off a large piece of driftwood. I watched the fish for a couple
of hours then, and saw that actually, the female was laying her eggs
vertically, on the filter pipe! Then the male would follow her over the
eggs. I was really excited about this! The appearance of the behavior
was just very cute and sweet to watch, especially after all the
fighting. From some of the reading and research I've done, it does
appear that they are male and female, judging by not only the behavior
but by the difference of appendage, if you will, protruding from
underside of the male fish in comparison to the female. Anyway, by
morning they had eaten all the eggs I could see, but I can't imagine
tha they got ALL of them, since many were nestled quite deeply in the
tangled java moss. My pleco might've made quite a meal of them though,
since vamps are real carnivores. I will keep hope that some of the eggs
will make it on their own; I actually dreamed last night that one
morning I looked in the tank and found a few babies swimming around.
That would be really cool.
Otherwise, maybe next time I'll be more prepared and have a nursery
tank ready to pull out the eggs once they are laid and fertilized. :-)

Nikki Casali wrote:
wrote:

I have two koi angel fish, both approx. 1 year old who grew up
together. Both are about 3" in the body, with substantially longer
fins. They have always bickered a lot, chased each other around the
tank, took turns being the bully. But lately their behavior has become
much stranger and intense. They spend a lot of time facing each other
and twitching, then locking lips and spinning around. Very weird. The
guy at my LFS told me that this is mating behavior and that this means
they are a pair. They are the only fish in the tank (with the exception
of a vampire pleco.) They have actually done the lip lock thing for a
long time at periodic intervals, but the twitching is new. They also
dart around the tank at breakneck speed and nip at each other quite a
bit, usually on the body (I've never noticed them nipping at each
other's fins.) Sometimes they rapidly flutter their fins and tail as
well. Their frenzy for food has also been lacking of late, and where
normally the frozen bloodworm gumball that's usually devoured in about
1.5 minutes for dinner, is only picked at over the span of an hour or
two. They have still enjoyed their frozen brine shrimp though, but I
don't think this is a good diet on its own.

I would like to hear from anyone who has had angels that acted
similarly to this, and what it means. I hope it isn't something I
should worry about; they have always been fantastically colored,
healthy, active and alert and I am quite attached to them so I want to
make sure I'm doing everything that I can to keep them that way.

From my own experience, this seems perfectly natural. There is a
poossbility that they could harm themselves when they get too
aggressive, but I think this is rare. When mine decide to lay eggs, they
band together and turn that aggression on to the other tanks mates,
while protecting their chosen egg laying leaf.

Nikki

A few eggs have survived... a couple buried safely amongst the gravel
and one in the tangle of the java moss. I'm torn between trying to
rescue them and just letting them be to see what happens. I know that
sounds silly, and is bound to be viewed as "first time excitement" but
I would really love it if I got even a couple of babies out of this
momentous occasion.

Is there any chance that the few remaining eggs could survive and
hatch, without any treatment from either me or the parents? I keep
reading that fungus is a problem and wonder, if left untreated, would
the eggs possible still be viable?

I know after a few times of this the spawning might become droll and
commonplace but for now I'm going to indulge in the newness of the
excitement. :-)

thanks again,
Jen

swarvegorilla wrote:
I have found that having something for the parents to defend the eggs
against always helps cichlids be better parents.
Even another fishtank placed with it's end to the one with the breeders in
it can work.
prob don't recognise the plec as a threat.
If you do decide to try raise the eggs yourself
get something to help prevent fungus
acriflavine works pretty well in my experience
but then so does just letting the pair try a few more times
They usually get it right in the end



wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, not more than a couple of hours after I posted my original
message, I noticed a TON of eggs all over the java moss, which is
growing off a large piece of driftwood. I watched the fish for a couple
of hours then, and saw that actually, the female was laying her eggs
vertically, on the filter pipe! Then the male would follow her over the
eggs. I was really excited about this! The appearance of the behavior
was just very cute and sweet to watch, especially after all the
fighting. From some of the reading and research I've done, it does
appear that they are male and female, judging by not only the behavior
but by the difference of appendage, if you will, protruding from
underside of the male fish in comparison to the female. Anyway, by
morning they had eaten all the eggs I could see, but I can't imagine
tha they got ALL of them, since many were nestled quite deeply in the
tangled java moss. My pleco might've made quite a meal of them though,
since vamps are real carnivores. I will keep hope that some of the eggs
will make it on their own; I actually dreamed last night that one
morning I looked in the tank and found a few babies swimming around.
That would be really cool.
Otherwise, maybe next time I'll be more prepared and have a nursery
tank ready to pull out the eggs once they are laid and fertilized. :-)

Nikki Casali wrote:
wrote:

I have two koi angel fish, both approx. 1 year old who grew up
together. Both are about 3" in the body, with substantially longer
fins. They have always bickered a lot, chased each other around the
tank, took turns being the bully. But lately their behavior has become
much stranger and intense. They spend a lot of time facing each other
and twitching, then locking lips and spinning around. Very weird. The
guy at my LFS told me that this is mating behavior and that this means
they are a pair. They are the only fish in the tank (with the exception
of a vampire pleco.) They have actually done the lip lock thing for a
long time at periodic intervals, but the twitching is new. They also
dart around the tank at breakneck speed and nip at each other quite a
bit, usually on the body (I've never noticed them nipping at each
other's fins.) Sometimes they rapidly flutter their fins and tail as
well. Their frenzy for food has also been lacking of late, and where
normally the frozen bloodworm gumball that's usually devoured in about
1.5 minutes for dinner, is only picked at over the span of an hour or
two. They have still enjoyed their frozen brine shrimp though, but I
don't think this is a good diet on its own.

I would like to hear from anyone who has had angels that acted
similarly to this, and what it means. I hope it isn't something I
should worry about; they have always been fantastically colored,
healthy, active and alert and I am quite attached to them so I want to
make sure I'm doing everything that I can to keep them that way.

From my own experience, this seems perfectly natural. There is a
poossbility that they could harm themselves when they get too
aggressive, but I think this is rare. When mine decide to lay eggs, they
band together and turn that aggression on to the other tanks mates,
while protecting their chosen egg laying leaf.

Nikki

wrote in message
oups.com...
A few eggs have survived... a couple buried safely amongst the gravel
and one in the tangle of the java moss. I'm torn between trying to
rescue them and just letting them be to see what happens. I know that
sounds silly, and is bound to be viewed as "first time excitement" but
I would really love it if I got even a couple of babies out of this
momentous occasion.
=======================
You may want to check out:
http://members.aol.com/AngelBook/angel1.htm and
http://websvirginia.com/angels/
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

wrote:
Well, not more than a couple of hours after I posted my original
message, I noticed a TON of eggs all over the java moss, which is
growing off a large piece of driftwood. I watched the fish for a couple
of hours then, and saw that actually, the female was laying her eggs
vertically, on the filter pipe! Then the male would follow her over the
eggs. I was really excited about this! The appearance of the behavior
was just very cute and sweet to watch, especially after all the
fighting. From some of the reading and research I've done, it does
appear that they are male and female, judging by not only the behavior
but by the difference of appendage, if you will, protruding from
underside of the male fish in comparison to the female. Anyway, by
morning they had eaten all the eggs I could see, but I can't imagine
tha they got ALL of them, since many were nestled quite deeply in the
tangled java moss. My pleco might've made quite a meal of them though,
since vamps are real carnivores. I will keep hope that some of the eggs
will make it on their own;

I doubt any eggs survived, as they are sticky and would not have simply
fallen safely to the gravel, which even if they did, they would have
died off anyway.
Angelfish eggs need tending, either by the parents or the hobbyist. If
they aren't kept cleaned (either by the parents fanning the eggs with
their pectoral fins, or the hobbyist by setting an airstone near* not
right next or under, the eggs). Eggs which were not viable and have
fungused over will be eaten by the parents , or should be removed by
the hobbyist.
Fungus can spread to viable eggs killing them.
Now it's not uncommon for parent angels to eat their first batch or
few. Some always eat them. You just never know until you either try,
or just decide to remove their eggs each time and raise them yourself.
As long as they are the only fish in this tank, and since it sounds
like you'd like to raise some Angel fry, why not remove the Pleco, as
it was most likely the night time egg raider.
Angel parents usually defend their eggs or brood fearlessly and
constantly...unless they're eating or sleeping.
This is when the batch is at risk of tank mates.
Other fish see the parents busy feeding and go for the eggs as soon as
their backs are turned.
At night, the parent fish are sleeping and nocturnal fish or inverts
are on the prowl for easy pickings.
Angelfish fry are bedded down in the gravel at night or tucked away in
a corner or nook somewhere and they end up like grit on
carpet...hoovered right up.
I'd give them a chance to try doing it on their own several times if
needed before deciding their egg eaters.
Remove the pleco to another and put a sponge over the intake for your
filter.
(you don't want your filter sucking any fry up, just remember to keep
it clean).
Food fry Angelfry, you can either hatch out baby Brine Shrimp or buy
frozen *baby* Brine. Not all shops sell the frozen baby brine, so make
sure the pack says baby brine shrimp on it.
Hikari makes a dry product called First bites as well.
Keep their temp about 82*f.
After the fry are free swimming and eating and growing, I will then
slowly lower the temp to 80*f.

I did forget to mention the behavior you were seeing before they
spawned is very typical of Angels before they settle down to spawn.
They are doing a mock battle. This is a way for each of them to see
whether or not the other is (or still) worthy of spawning.
Many pairs will do this just like if it were the first time. Some may
settle on a little fin flashing, some a lip lock-tug o war (this looks
so painful), some just keep intruders at bay and then just spawn.
I currently have 2 males bickering over the same female. She shows
interest in them both, yet neither will back down. The males do a lot
of fin flashing and nipping here and there, but don't do any damage to
each other. It's more for the point of showing off to each other than a
true fight.
I have left them to figure this out on their own, unless it gets
nasty.

If the parents ain't defending them
they will eat the wrigglers
yea I know dam!!!
but it's a good sign that they spawned!
Next time hopefully you will get to see them raise a whole swarm.
And no it doesn't get old, trust me.
Same sorta fist pumping in the air and BOOOO-YAAAA call
fry = w0000000000000t!!!!!!
I got to see an urchin lay eggs in me marine tank the other day
No chance of babies but still!
yea baby!!!
:-)


wrote in message
oups.com...
A few eggs have survived... a couple buried safely amongst the gravel
and one in the tangle of the java moss. I'm torn between trying to
rescue them and just letting them be to see what happens. I know that
sounds silly, and is bound to be viewed as "first time excitement" but
I would really love it if I got even a couple of babies out of this
momentous occasion.

Is there any chance that the few remaining eggs could survive and
hatch, without any treatment from either me or the parents? I keep
reading that fungus is a problem and wonder, if left untreated, would
the eggs possible still be viable?

I know after a few times of this the spawning might become droll and
commonplace but for now I'm going to indulge in the newness of the
excitement. :-)

thanks again,
Jen

swarvegorilla wrote:
I have found that having something for the parents to defend the eggs
against always helps cichlids be better parents.
Even another fishtank placed with it's end to the one with the breeders
in
it can work.
prob don't recognise the plec as a threat.
If you do decide to try raise the eggs yourself
get something to help prevent fungus
acriflavine works pretty well in my experience
but then so does just letting the pair try a few more times
They usually get it right in the end



wrote in message
oups.com...
Well, not more than a couple of hours after I posted my original
message, I noticed a TON of eggs all over the java moss, which is
growing off a large piece of driftwood. I watched the fish for a couple
of hours then, and saw that actually, the female was laying her eggs
vertically, on the filter pipe! Then the male would follow her over the
eggs. I was really excited about this! The appearance of the behavior
was just very cute and sweet to watch, especially after all the
fighting. From some of the reading and research I've done, it does
appear that they are male and female, judging by not only the behavior
but by the difference of appendage, if you will, protruding from
underside of the male fish in comparison to the female. Anyway, by
morning they had eaten all the eggs I could see, but I can't imagine
tha they got ALL of them, since many were nestled quite deeply in the
tangled java moss. My pleco might've made quite a meal of them though,
since vamps are real carnivores. I will keep hope that some of the eggs
will make it on their own; I actually dreamed last night that one
morning I looked in the tank and found a few babies swimming around.
That would be really cool.
Otherwise, maybe next time I'll be more prepared and have a nursery
tank ready to pull out the eggs once they are laid and fertilized. :-)

Nikki Casali wrote:
wrote:

I have two koi angel fish, both approx. 1 year old who grew up
together. Both are about 3" in the body, with substantially longer
fins. They have always bickered a lot, chased each other around the
tank, took turns being the bully. But lately their behavior has
become
much stranger and intense. They spend a lot of time facing each
other
and twitching, then locking lips and spinning around. Very weird.
The
guy at my LFS told me that this is mating behavior and that this
means
they are a pair. They are the only fish in the tank (with the
exception
of a vampire pleco.) They have actually done the lip lock thing for
a
long time at periodic intervals, but the twitching is new. They also
dart around the tank at breakneck speed and nip at each other quite
a
bit, usually on the body (I've never noticed them nipping at each
other's fins.) Sometimes they rapidly flutter their fins and tail as
well. Their frenzy for food has also been lacking of late, and where
normally the frozen bloodworm gumball that's usually devoured in
about
1.5 minutes for dinner, is only picked at over the span of an hour
or
two. They have still enjoyed their frozen brine shrimp though, but I
don't think this is a good diet on its own.

I would like to hear from anyone who has had angels that acted
similarly to this, and what it means. I hope it isn't something I
should worry about; they have always been fantastically colored,
healthy, active and alert and I am quite attached to them so I want
to
make sure I'm doing everything that I can to keep them that way.

From my own experience, this seems perfectly natural. There is a
poossbility that they could harm themselves when they get too
aggressive, but I think this is rare. When mine decide to lay eggs,
they
band together and turn that aggression on to the other tanks mates,
while protecting their chosen egg laying leaf.

Nikki