salt concentrations

My Oscars are coming down with something. The one had a shiny white
patch(when viewed at the right angle under lights almost a marbled effect)
and some white tufts protruding. Not sure if they were parasites - was
definately not fungus. I did some reading, particularly about hole in the
head although I can;t be sure that is what they have. Anyway I did an
immediate large water change and gravel vac and added salt. One site
recommended 1 tbsp per 5-10 gal.(how many ppm would that be roughly?!)

Since I do not know what a tbsp is (of course a table spoon but how much
is that) and do not have measuring cups I opted to weigh the salt and go
for a ppm or percentage solution and using the decimal system it makes the
maths really easy. But I just wanted to double check my maths here for my
own sake, and I am sure there are others who could benefit as well.

This is what I know

1mg (salt) / litre = 1 ppm
10000ppm = 1% salt solution

so if I have 350 litres to treat (trying to take into account the volume
taken up by gravel and rocks)and I want to add salt to get to 1000 ppm
or a 0.1% solution I do the following

1ppm * desired ppm * litres = salt to be added

1 (mg) * 1000 (ppm) * 350 (l) = 350000mg of salt = 350g or 0.35kg

since I only added 264g of salt I need a further 86g to get to 1000ppm

Is this correct?

And is 1000ppm (0.1%) a suitable concetration for treating the oscars for
a possible case of HITH along with more frequent water changes, gravel vac
and varied diet. Just that I do not want to be adding any meds or anythiny
without a proper diagnosis and having seen that even at the 754ppm
concetration level by the morning all the white things had disappeared and
the shiny white patches look less obvious.

The other fish are unaffected. I did do the only two tests I have kits for
and Ammonia was zero and ph between 7 - 7.4 (I have lost the color chart
but know the colour to be neutral to slightly alkaline) Temp runs at 26C
Filtered by a Eheim 22xx canister. I know I have slipped a littel in
gravel vacs but I do change at least 15% every two weeks.

I will be doing 10 % changes every 2 days (with gravel vac) and
adding enough salt to keep a 1000ppm level and investing in some varied
food - currently only feeding Nutrafin complete basic diet Floating
Pellets for medium and large cichlids.

Thanks

trev

Hi.

I can't help with a recommendation for the concentration that you want,
but I think I can help with the unit conversion.

I checked, and a tablespoon = 14.8 ml. 10 US gallons is 37.85L. So 1
tbsp / 10 US gallons is roughly a 0.04% solution (just about 400 ppm). 1
tbsp per 5 gallons should be twice that, or 0.08%. So I think that your
estimate of 0.1% solution is on the high end of the original
recommendation you read.

--chris



On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Trevor wrote:

My Oscars are coming down with something. The one had a shiny white
patch(when viewed at the right angle under lights almost a marbled effect)
and some white tufts protruding. Not sure if they were parasites - was
definately not fungus. I did some reading, particularly about hole in the
head although I can;t be sure that is what they have. Anyway I did an
immediate large water change and gravel vac and added salt. One site
recommended 1 tbsp per 5-10 gal.(how many ppm would that be roughly?!)

Since I do not know what a tbsp is (of course a table spoon but how much
is that) and do not have measuring cups I opted to weigh the salt and go
for a ppm or percentage solution and using the decimal system it makes the
maths really easy. But I just wanted to double check my maths here for my
own sake, and I am sure there are others who could benefit as well.

This is what I know

1mg (salt) / litre = 1 ppm
10000ppm = 1% salt solution

so if I have 350 litres to treat (trying to take into account the volume
taken up by gravel and rocks)and I want to add salt to get to 1000 ppm
or a 0.1% solution I do the following

1ppm * desired ppm * litres = salt to be added

1 (mg) * 1000 (ppm) * 350 (l) = 350000mg of salt = 350g or 0.35kg

since I only added 264g of salt I need a further 86g to get to 1000ppm

Is this correct?

And is 1000ppm (0.1%) a suitable concetration for treating the oscars for
a possible case of HITH along with more frequent water changes, gravel vac
and varied diet. Just that I do not want to be adding any meds or anythiny
without a proper diagnosis and having seen that even at the 754ppm
concetration level by the morning all the white things had disappeared and
the shiny white patches look less obvious.

The other fish are unaffected. I did do the only two tests I have kits for
and Ammonia was zero and ph between 7 - 7.4 (I have lost the color chart
but know the colour to be neutral to slightly alkaline) Temp runs at 26C
Filtered by a Eheim 22xx canister. I know I have slipped a littel in
gravel vacs but I do change at least 15% every two weeks.

I will be doing 10 % changes every 2 days (with gravel vac) and
adding enough salt to keep a 1000ppm level and investing in some varied
food - currently only feeding Nutrafin complete basic diet Floating
Pellets for medium and large cichlids.

Thanks

trev

Not very precise, but easy to remember, every teaspoon per gallon is 0.1%
(a US teaspoon is about 5ml).
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Chris Palma" wrote in message
...

Hi.

I can't help with a recommendation for the concentration that you want,
but I think I can help with the unit conversion.

I checked, and a tablespoon = 14.8 ml. 10 US gallons is 37.85L. So 1
tbsp / 10 US gallons is roughly a 0.04% solution (just about 400 ppm).
1
tbsp per 5 gallons should be twice that, or 0.08%. So I think that
your
estimate of 0.1% solution is on the high end of the original
recommendation you read.

--chris



On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Trevor wrote:

My Oscars are coming down with something. The one had a shiny white
patch(when viewed at the right angle under lights almost a marbled
effect)
and some white tufts protruding. Not sure if they were parasites -
was
definately not fungus. I did some reading, particularly about hole in
the
head although I can;t be sure that is what they have. Anyway I did an
immediate large water change and gravel vac and added salt. One site
recommended 1 tbsp per 5-10 gal.(how many ppm would that be
roughly?!)

Since I do not know what a tbsp is (of course a table spoon but how
much
is that) and do not have measuring cups I opted to weigh the salt and
go
for a ppm or percentage solution and using the decimal system it
makes the
maths really easy. But I just wanted to double check my maths here
for my
own sake, and I am sure there are others who could benefit as well.

This is what I know

1mg (salt) / litre = 1 ppm
10000ppm = 1% salt solution

so if I have 350 litres to treat (trying to take into account the
volume
taken up by gravel and rocks)and I want to add salt to get to 1000
ppm
or a 0.1% solution I do the following

1ppm * desired ppm * litres = salt to be added

1 (mg) * 1000 (ppm) * 350 (l) = 350000mg of salt = 350g or 0.35kg

since I only added 264g of salt I need a further 86g to get to
1000ppm

Is this correct?

And is 1000ppm (0.1%) a suitable concetration for treating the oscars
for
a possible case of HITH along with more frequent water changes,
gravel vac
and varied diet. Just that I do not want to be adding any meds or
anythiny
without a proper diagnosis and having seen that even at the 754ppm
concetration level by the morning all the white things had
disappeared and
the shiny white patches look less obvious.

The other fish are unaffected. I did do the only two tests I have
kits for
and Ammonia was zero and ph between 7 - 7.4 (I have lost the color
chart
but know the colour to be neutral to slightly alkaline) Temp runs at
26C
Filtered by a Eheim 22xx canister. I know I have slipped a littel in
gravel vacs but I do change at least 15% every two weeks.

I will be doing 10 % changes every 2 days (with gravel vac) and
adding enough salt to keep a 1000ppm level and investing in some
varied
food - currently only feeding Nutrafin complete basic diet Floating
Pellets for medium and large cichlids.

Thanks

trev

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:45:07 -0400, Chris Palma wrote:


Hi.

I can't help with a recommendation for the concentration that you want,
but I think I can help with the unit conversion.

I checked, and a tablespoon = 14.8 ml. 10 US gallons is 37.85L. So 1
tbsp / 10 US gallons is roughly a 0.04% solution (just about 400 ppm). 1
tbsp per 5 gallons should be twice that, or 0.08%. So I think that your
estimate of 0.1% solution is on the high end of the original
recommendation you read.

--chris


On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 01:11:29 -0400, NetMax wrote:

Not very precise, but easy to remember, every teaspoon per gallon is
0.1% (a US teaspoon is about 5ml).


By my own experience and calculations I found that a metic tot measure of
25 ml capacity contained salt (fairly course) that weighed 33g. This was
calculated by measuring 15 level tots and weighing the salt on a scale
that was accurate to 20g and divinding the weight 496 by 15 to get 33.07
which I rounded down to 33g per 25 ml of salt. I would imagine that finer
salt would have weighed more.

So according to Netmaxs approximation rule of 5ml salt per gallon (3.79l)
= 0.1 % or 1000ppm I calculated completed differently by the following
methodology

5ml salt = 5/25 * 33 = 6.6g of salt per gal or 3.75 litre therefore
6.6/3.79 = 1.74g per litre = 1740mg per liter or ppm = 0.17 % or 70% more
than 0.1 % approximation.

From Chris' conversion we get the following calculation

14.8ml of salt = 14.8/25 *33 = 19.54g salt per 37.85 litres
19.54/37.85 = 0.52 g per litre = 520mg per litre or ppm = .05% = 25% more
than chris' rough figure but close enough I would imagine!

Obviously both Chris and Netmax never gave exact conversions but
useable approximations, unless my maths is way out We can see that
teaspoon/tablespoon to measure salt is a lousy measure and it would be
nice to see people using ppm or percentage figures for salt remedies.

But in closing I guess even if for me (and my paticular salt granule size)
either method would have given a reasonable concebtration even if they
were (according to my calcs 25 and 75 percent out at these low
concentrations particlularly for the large cichlids I have a .1% or even
..2% solution is not going to have a harmfull effect.

I do not think I have worked my brain harder than this for a while - but
it is fun!!

On further reading and taking a picture of my oscar which really shows it
I amd more convinced that it is suffering from HITH. You can see a picture
here if you would like to confirm this for me and comment on the severity
of this case. www.geocities.com/thereaperman69

Thanks

Trev

"Trevor" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 16:45:07 -0400, Chris Palma wrote:


Hi.

I can't help with a recommendation for the concentration that you
want,
but I think I can help with the unit conversion.

I checked, and a tablespoon = 14.8 ml. 10 US gallons is 37.85L. So
1
tbsp / 10 US gallons is roughly a 0.04% solution (just about 400
ppm). 1
tbsp per 5 gallons should be twice that, or 0.08%. So I think that
your
estimate of 0.1% solution is on the high end of the original
recommendation you read.

--chris


On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 01:11:29 -0400, NetMax wrote:

Not very precise, but easy to remember, every teaspoon per gallon is
0.1% (a US teaspoon is about 5ml).


By my own experience and calculations I found that a metic tot measure
of
25 ml capacity contained salt (fairly course) that weighed 33g. This
was
calculated by measuring 15 level tots and weighing the salt on a scale
that was accurate to 20g and divinding the weight 496 by 15 to get
33.07
which I rounded down to 33g per 25 ml of salt. I would imagine that
finer
salt would have weighed more.

So according to Netmaxs approximation rule of 5ml salt per gallon
(3.79l)
= 0.1 % or 1000ppm I calculated completed differently by the following
methodology

5ml salt = 5/25 * 33 = 6.6g of salt per gal or 3.75 litre therefore
6.6/3.79 = 1.74g per litre = 1740mg per liter or ppm = 0.17 % or 70%
more
than 0.1 % approximation.

From Chris' conversion we get the following calculation

14.8ml of salt = 14.8/25 *33 = 19.54g salt per 37.85 litres
19.54/37.85 = 0.52 g per litre = 520mg per litre or ppm = .05% = 25%
more
than chris' rough figure but close enough I would imagine!

Obviously both Chris and Netmax never gave exact conversions but
useable approximations, unless my maths is way out We can see that
teaspoon/tablespoon to measure salt is a lousy measure and it would be
nice to see people using ppm or percentage figures for salt remedies.

But in closing I guess even if for me (and my paticular salt granule
size)
either method would have given a reasonable concebtration even if they
were (according to my calcs 25 and 75 percent out at these low
concentrations particlularly for the large cichlids I have a .1% or
even
.2% solution is not going to have a harmfull effect.

I do not think I have worked my brain harder than this for a while -
but
it is fun!!

On further reading and taking a picture of my oscar which really shows
it
I amd more convinced that it is suffering from HITH. You can see a
picture
here if you would like to confirm this for me and comment on the
severity
of this case. www.geocities.com/thereaperman69

Thanks

Trev

If you can figure out a reliable conversion, please share it. I've read
that for salt calculations, because of water's changing density, the
calculation should include temperature, with the reference typically
being 59F. The few times I've tried to calculate salt dosages (with
patient help from others), we came out to approximately 1g = 1ml and a
tablespoon per g was 0.3%. While this might not be very accurate, 1
tsp/g = 0.1% helps me be consistent.

For example, Goldfish (freshwater fish) have come from saline levels of
17ppt, but they cannot withstand prolonged exposure to 15ppt (which
worked out to 11 teaspoon per gallon). That gives you quite a broad
range (zero to 11), so stability and changing levels gradually seems just
as important. I agree that larger fish are far less susceptible to
excess salt, being better able to regulate themselves. Good luck with
your Oscar.
--
www.NetMax.tk

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:06:07 -0400, NetMax wrote:



If you can figure out a reliable conversion, please share it. I've read
that for salt calculations, because of water's changing density, the
calculation should include temperature, with the reference typically being
59F. The few times I've tried to calculate salt dosages (with patient
help from others), we came out to approximately 1g = 1ml and a tablespoon
per g was 0.3%. While this might not be very accurate, 1 tsp/g = 0.1%
helps me be consistent.

I think that your estimates are probably well good enough for most
applications. I think people overestimating the exact amount of water
would be more of a problem in getting the right concentration. In my 3
foot tank I was amazed at how much the water level dropped when I took all
the rock work out. Then there is also the volume of tank taken up by the
air space between the water level an the top of the glass.

Doesn't temperature only come into play when you are measuring the
specific gravity with a hydrometer above or below the 60F (at which temp
plain water has an sg of 1.000 The particular hydrometer I am using I had
left over from beer making. Incidentally it seemed to show only slightly
above 1.000 but below 1.001 for my estimated 0.1 % solution (at 25C) I am
not sure what reading I should have expected. I figure it is not accurate
enough to be reliable used at such low concentrations. I also did not
consult a temperature correction table.

How does one relate the SG to a percentage solution? (at 60F of course !)

On googling I see that once can buy a hydrometer calibrated to show the %
salt solution.


I think that consistency _is_ the key here. You will soon get a feel for
if your concentration is too strong (fish adversely affected immediately
or over a long time) or too week (not curing the problem for which it was
applied) or having no noticeable beneficial effect over a long period when
you would normally expect it too.

I should add YMMV here as I am no expert and this is my first time using
salt.

Trev

PS I am

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 02:22:43 +0200, Trevor
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:06:07 -0400, NetMax wrote:



If you can figure out a reliable conversion, please share it. I've read
that for salt calculations, because of water's changing density, the
calculation should include temperature, with the reference typically being
59F. The few times I've tried to calculate salt dosages (with patient
help from others), we came out to approximately 1g = 1ml and a tablespoon
per g was 0.3%. While this might not be very accurate, 1 tsp/g = 0.1%
helps me be consistent.

I think that your estimates are probably well good enough for most
applications. I think people overestimating the exact amount of water
would be more of a problem in getting the right concentration. In my 3
foot tank I was amazed at how much the water level dropped when I took all
the rock work out. Then there is also the volume of tank taken up by the
air space between the water level an the top of the glass.

Doesn't temperature only come into play when you are measuring the
specific gravity with a hydrometer above or below the 60F (at which temp
plain water has an sg of 1.000 The particular hydrometer I am using I had
left over from beer making. Incidentally it seemed to show only slightly
above 1.000 but below 1.001 for my estimated 0.1 % solution (at 25C) I am
not sure what reading I should have expected. I figure it is not accurate
enough to be reliable used at such low concentrations. I also did not
consult a temperature correction table.

How does one relate the SG to a percentage solution? (at 60F of course !)

On googling I see that once can buy a hydrometer calibrated to show the %
salt solution.


I think that consistency _is_ the key here. You will soon get a feel for
if your concentration is too strong (fish adversely affected immediately
or over a long time) or too week (not curing the problem for which it was
applied) or having no noticeable beneficial effect over a long period when
you would normally expect it too.

I should add YMMV here as I am no expert and this is my first time using
salt.

Trev

PS I am



Some more reading:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu.../chemistry.htm

Unfortunately it is geared to seawater concentrations.
If we take 100 grams of water and add 1 gram of salt, we would have a
1% solution. We are doing this at the temperature where 1 cc of water
weighs 1 gram, whatever that is.

Assuming the solution doesn't change volume (it could increase,
decrease, or remain the same)we would have 100 cc that weigh 101
grams.

101/100 = 1.01 specific gravity.

Another way to figure is 99 grams of water and 1 gram of salt to get
100 grams of solution.

100/99 = 1.01010101...

So 1.001 for 0.1% sounds right, ignoring all the variables that are
too small for us to measure anyway.


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

mo

http://www.mt.com/mt/resourcedetail/...y=c2MTg4NjM1Mz


--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 05:54:00 GMT, Charles
bubbled forth the following:

Some more reading:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu.../chemistry.htm

Unfortunately it is geared to seawater concentrations.
If we take 100 grams of water and add 1 gram of salt, we would have a
1% solution. We are doing this at the temperature where 1 cc of water
weighs 1 gram, whatever that is.

3.984 degrees Celsius, the temperature at which water is at it's most
dense.

Jerry

So, corrected to 20 C, or 68F.

Water has a density of .9982063 G/CC

Water with 0.1% sodium chloride has a density of .9989 G/CC.

Dividing one number by the other one, we get 1.007 as the relative
density, or specific gravity at 20C.
--

- Charles
-
-does not play well with others