Do we need a protein skimmer

We are just setting up a reef tank (not yet stabilised - installed
less than a week ago) It is a Juwel 240 (with integral filter), 215
litres (est real volume), Fluval 204 external filter (with standard
media). We are new to marine fish keeping and have been reading a lot
about protein skimmers. Some dealers say we need one, some don't. How
do we assess whether one is required or not? If we need one, should we
be installing it now or after the tank is stabilised/populated?

my thoughts are that unless you are very very experienced then I would
strongly recommend a protein skimmer. go for one that's recommended for
twice the volume of your tank to be sure. if your not drilling the tank
then I suggest a hang-on type rather than an in-tank solution. it may mean
a modification of your hood it does mean that you can put as powerful a
skimmer as you can afford and will really be a lot better than any internal
as far as skimming efficiency goes. shop around.

Robin

"Dale and Helen" wrote in message
om...
We are just setting up a reef tank (not yet stabilised - installed
less than a week ago) It is a Juwel 240 (with integral filter), 215
litres (est real volume), Fluval 204 external filter (with standard
media). We are new to marine fish keeping and have been reading a lot
about protein skimmers. Some dealers say we need one, some don't. How
do we assess whether one is required or not? If we need one, should we
be installing it now or after the tank is stabilised/populated?



I would say yes to the skimmer.... trade the cannister filter in for it.


--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/reef.htm

"Toni" wrote in message
. ..

|
|
|
| I would say yes to the skimmer.... trade the cannister filter in
for it.
|


Agreed, cannister filters are not really a good choice for a reef
tank, they manufacture nitrates at an alarming rate. Some reefers
will tell stories of amazingly high nitrates for years on end, but
it's just not worth the risk. Trade\sell the 204 and aquire the best
skimmer you can afford.

billy


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... trade the cannister filter in for it.

... cannister filters are not really a good choice for a reef
tank,

Thanks for the feedback guys, but I am not sure I understand. From the
reading we have done and from conversations with dealers, we were led
to believe that a biological filter was required to convert Amonia to
Nitrite then Nitrite to Nitrate, with the latter being much less
harmful and cleared out through water changes. The dealer who sold us
the tank also sold us the 204 on the basis that we needed more
biological filtration capacity than the Juwel 240 integral filter
provided (which is apparently rated for fresh water tropicals only).
The feedback here seems to suggest that the skimmer can be used in
place of the biological filter(?). Or is it that the 204 type
cannister filters are bad news but other biological filters are OK(?).
One dealer we consulted suggested under-gravel filtering, but others
seem to agree with the first and recommend cannisters?

Since our original posting, we visited a dealer we haven't been to
before and he too recommended a skimmer, but in addition to the
existing filter setup.

Help!!

D&H

Have a look at this link. It is quite a good explanation of the function of
a skimmer -- it is removing dissolved organics, and therefore reducing the
load on the biological filtration system.

Phil

http://www.algone.com/protein_skimmer.htm


"Dale & H" wrote in message
om...
... trade the cannister filter in for it.

... cannister filters are not really a good choice for a reef
tank,

Thanks for the feedback guys, but I am not sure I understand. From the
reading we have done and from conversations with dealers, we were led
to believe that a biological filter was required to convert Amonia to
Nitrite then Nitrite to Nitrate, with the latter being much less
harmful and cleared out through water changes. The dealer who sold us
the tank also sold us the 204 on the basis that we needed more
biological filtration capacity than the Juwel 240 integral filter
provided (which is apparently rated for fresh water tropicals only).
The feedback here seems to suggest that the skimmer can be used in
place of the biological filter(?). Or is it that the 204 type
cannister filters are bad news but other biological filters are OK(?).
One dealer we consulted suggested under-gravel filtering, but others
seem to agree with the first and recommend cannisters?

Since our original posting, we visited a dealer we haven't been to
before and he too recommended a skimmer, but in addition to the
existing filter setup.

Help!!

we were led
to believe that a biological filter was required to convert Amonia to
Nitrite then Nitrite to Nitrate,

Your live rock does that job for you.

The skimmer is for dissolved organics/phosphates which canister filters do not
do good at. Those two are food for algae so that's why people keep them low.

Live Rock
Skimmer
Sump w/Algae
is how I see it prioritized.
~John

"Billy" wrote in message ...
"Toni" wrote in message
. ..

|
|
|
| I would say yes to the skimmer.... trade the cannister filter in
for it.
|


Agreed, cannister filters are not really a good choice for a reef
tank, they manufacture nitrates at an alarming rate. Some reefers
will tell stories of amazingly high nitrates for years on end, but
it's just not worth the risk. Trade\sell the 204 and aquire the best
skimmer you can afford.

billy


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I'm setting up my 10 gal reef (LR & LS) currently and was planning to
use both a Prizm Skimmer (Deluxe model) as well as an Eheim 2211
canister filter. Are you saying that it's a bad idea to use the
canister filter even in conjunction with the skimmer? Don't I need
some form of mechanical filtration?

Regards,

MB

"MonkeyBoy" wrote in message
...
|
| I'm setting up my 10 gal reef (LR & LS) currently and was planning
to
| use both a Prizm Skimmer (Deluxe model) as well as an Eheim 2211
| canister filter. Are you saying that it's a bad idea to use the
| canister filter even in conjunction with the skimmer? Don't I need
| some form of mechanical filtration?
|

I was confused about that as well, initially. As I understand it, if
you have an adequate cleanup crew, the mechanical filtration isn't
really needed. A good skimmer is the key. FWIW, Prizm skimmers are
considered pretty poor as far as skimmers go, and having used one, I
can agree. Many skimmers, particularly that Prizm, have a chamber for
filter media, but be sure you rinse it frequently to avoid nitrate
production.

billy


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This reminds me of how confusing things were when I first got started.
I read a couple of good books ( a couple of times each ) before I
started to "get it". I'll try to summarize a little here.

Biological wastes are broken down by bacteria. Much of the waste
products we're concerned with here are nitrogen based.

These wastes are first tackled by bacteria type 'A' and converted to
Ammonia. Ammonia is very toxic.

Ammonia is then used by bacteria type 'B' and converted to Nitrite.
Nitrite can be very toxic under some conditions.

The Nitrite is then converted to Nitrate by bacteria type 'C'.
Nitrate is only toxic at very high levels but it is a nutrient source
for plants and algae.

Nitrate is then broken down into Nitrogen gas by bacteria type 'D'.
Nitrogen gas is safe and will escape from the aquarium via little
bubbles.

So, the first thing you'll need to do is establish a population of
bacteria type 'A' and then bacteria types 'B' and 'C'. This is what
people mean when they talk about cycling a tank. They are providing
enough food for the bacteria to colonize and start the process of
converting Ammonia - Nitrite - Nitrate. Luckly these bacteria are
everywhere, in the air, on our bodies, in dirt etc... These colonies
of bacteria will start to flurish in a couple of weeks provided they
have a food source and a substrate to grow on. That's where the
filters come in. Filters typically try to provide a huge amount of
surface area for the bacteria to grow on. Some also provide some
mechanical filtration to trap particles.

So far we have a filltration system that converts biological wastes
into Nitrate, but Nitrates will cause serious problems do to
excessive algae, so we try to keep the Nitrate levels low.
The problem is that the bacteria that converts Nitrate to Nitrogen gas
requires conditions very different from the the other bacteria types (
'A', 'B', and 'C'). The first 3 types of bacteria require alot of
oxygen to do their job while type 'D' requires a low oxygen
environment.

Most biological filters do an awesome job at growing the first 3 types
of bacteria but not the last one so that Nitrates build up in a system
quickly. The first step is to try to remove waste from the system
before the bacteria gets to it. This is where the protein skimmer
comes in. Secondly, the mechanical filters have to be cleaned at
least once per day, otherwise they are just trapping wastes in the
system which will eventually turn into more Nitrate.

What we really want is a system that provides alot of high oxygen
surface area for bacteria types 'A', 'B', and 'C' and also low oxygen
areas for bacteria type 'D'. Liverock and a deep layer of sand (deep
sand bed , DSB) provide these environments in a very natural way.
Even if you provided an environment for bacteria type 'D' via a second
filter system, or via a DSB, the Nitrates are still in the water
column long enough for algae to get out of hand.


Clear as mud?
Here are a couple of articles by people far more knowlegable than I.
Not to mention they write gooder two.

Good luck.

The Basics of Filtration for the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...3/beginner.htm

These people are a little weird but they have a lot of good info
online. Look at the stuff about the "bullet proof reef"
http://www.garf.org



On 30 Aug 2004 13:40:45 -0700, (Dale & H) wrote:

... trade the cannister filter in for it.

... cannister filters are not really a good choice for a reef
tank,

Thanks for the feedback guys, but I am not sure I understand. From the
reading we have done and from conversations with dealers, we were led
to believe that a biological filter was required to convert Amonia to
Nitrite then Nitrite to Nitrate, with the latter being much less
harmful and cleared out through water changes. The dealer who sold us
the tank also sold us the 204 on the basis that we needed more
biological filtration capacity than the Juwel 240 integral filter
provided (which is apparently rated for fresh water tropicals only).
The feedback here seems to suggest that the skimmer can be used in
place of the biological filter(?). Or is it that the 204 type
cannister filters are bad news but other biological filters are OK(?).
One dealer we consulted suggested under-gravel filtering, but others
seem to agree with the first and recommend cannisters?

Since our original posting, we visited a dealer we haven't been to
before and he too recommended a skimmer, but in addition to the
existing filter setup.

Help!!