winter water temperatures

Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it makes a
pretty interesting read.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
From: Roark7
Subject: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
Date: 1997/10/31

David Swarbrick wrote:

Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the water
at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
by the ice being distributed all over.

I question this.

Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and voiced the
same arguments that you shortly share because it *is* counter-intuitive...
until you start looking hard.

First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen water
floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes where
the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only at
the point very near freezing.

I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter pond"
thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up with three
things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in ascending
order of importance:

- The native heat of the earth
- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.

I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:

- Heat of the Earth:
It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right around
34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower. The
simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic. As you dig down
you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can be
pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes below
the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is* there.
The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The other
effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by keeping
this slightly warmer water on the bottom.

- Physics of Water:
It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor sink when
it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly a
function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it rises... but
this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs- temperature
curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point (32.8
F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes *less*
dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This difference
is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water, near-freezing water
*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density of the
water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy is
controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the water. The
more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point has been
reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater O2
concentration, this further contributes to stratification. Near-freezing
water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface, freezes
completely.

- Surface Cooling Effects
This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in context.
Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull more
heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural convection.
Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water physics
insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't true,
you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit a point
where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.

It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
right.

Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it will
take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far more
than you could reasonably produce. Pumping a large amount of air in would
also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least adjust
for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them into
this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the winter.

For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this warm-air idea
to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm air to
it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run between
your shed and the airstone.

Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and build
up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler has
to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.

The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low. This is
a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen available once
you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of wastes
by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion of the
oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.

During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble system
would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of her way
to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite *benefit*
to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper 30's and
40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd be
putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the pond to
absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a shower.
From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems during the
actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during that
transition period.

So.... thats my 2 cents on the subject. YMMV.

Roark --- wouldn't know a real winter if it bit him in the rumpus!
Ventura, Ca.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~


kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

There are a few areas that Roark is mistaken, though his dissertation is
reasonably close. One the point of maximum density of water is at 39
degrees, so as long as the temperature is warmer than 39, the warm water is
at the top, and when the temperature of the pond drops below 39 degrees, the
warmest water is at the bottom. The earth does continue to warm the bottom
of the pond with the heat being transported to the surface where wind,
evaporation, and cold temperatures rob the heat from the surface. When the
amount of heat transferred is not sufficient to keep up, then the
temperature at the surface reaches 32 degree water, and through continued
cooling becomes 32 degree ice. At the water ice interface, the temperature
is always 32 degrees. When ice forms, it expands about 9% which is why ice
floats with about 10% of the cube out of the water.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"Ka30P" wrote in message
...
Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it makes
a
pretty interesting read.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
From: Roark7
Subject: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
Date: 1997/10/31

David Swarbrick wrote:

Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the water
at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
by the ice being distributed all over.

I question this.

Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and voiced
the
same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*
counter-intuitive...
until you start looking hard.

First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen water
floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes where
the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only at
the point very near freezing.

I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter pond"
thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up with
three
things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in
ascending
order of importance:

- The native heat of the earth
- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.

I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:

- Heat of the Earth:
It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right
around
34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower.
The
simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic. As you dig
down
you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can
be
pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes
below
the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*
there.
The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The
other
effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by
keeping
this slightly warmer water on the bottom.

- Physics of Water:
It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor sink
when
it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly a
function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it
rises... but
this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-
temperature
curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point
(32.8
F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes
*less*
dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This
difference
is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water, near-freezing
water
*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density of
the
water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy is
controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the water.
The
more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point has
been
reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater O2
concentration, this further contributes to stratification.
Near-freezing
water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,
freezes
completely.

- Surface Cooling Effects
This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in context.
Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull
more
heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural
convection.
Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water
physics
insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't true,
you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit a
point
where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.

It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
right.

Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it
will
take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far
more
than you could reasonably produce. Pumping a large amount of air in
would
also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least
adjust
for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them
into
this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the winter.

For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this warm-air
idea
to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm air
to
it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run
between
your shed and the airstone.

Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and build
up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler has
to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.

The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low.
This is
a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen available
once
you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of
wastes
by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion of
the
oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.

During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble
system
would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of
her way
to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite
*benefit*
to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper 30's
and
40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd be
putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the pond
to
absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a
shower.
From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems during
the
actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during
that
transition period.

So.... thats my 2 cents on the subject. YMMV.

Roark --- wouldn't know a real winter if it bit him in the rumpus!
Ventura, Ca.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~


kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

"Ka30P" wrote in message
...
Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it makes a
pretty interesting read.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
From: Roark7
Subject: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
Date: 1997/10/31

David Swarbrick wrote:

Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the water
at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
by the ice being distributed all over.

I question this.

Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and voiced the
same arguments that you shortly share because it *is* counter-intuitive...
until you start looking hard.

Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the circulation,
which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the ground below
the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and only had
ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).

First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen water
floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes where
the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only at
the point very near freezing.

I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter pond"
thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up with three
things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in ascending
order of importance:

- The native heat of the earth
- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.

I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:

- Heat of the Earth:
It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right around
34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower. The
simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
As you dig down
you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can be
pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes below
the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is* there.
The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The other
effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by keeping
this slightly warmer water on the bottom.

I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the geothermal
gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth. But at
shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill. For
instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave stays in
the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the cave, which
depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the surface,and visa
versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower. Travel
south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to ponds, the
surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a certain
depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the soil will
not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with increasing
depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the frost line is
at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such as water
lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried six inches
below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north latitude,
and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not freeze
(unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case, your pond
can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year my pond
only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free the rest
of the winter.

- Physics of Water:
It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor sink
when
it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly a
function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it rises... but
this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs- temperature
curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point (32.8
F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes *less*
dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This difference
is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water, near-freezing water
*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density of the
water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy is
controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the water. The
more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point has been
reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater O2
concentration, this further contributes to stratification. Near-freezing
water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface, freezes
completely.

Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I place the
air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that drawing the
warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of the water
at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below the frost
line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into the water
as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your air supply
is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air into the
water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of the pond
may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish unless
the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time (in which
case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the hose out
to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his pond from
his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is actually
pumping heated air into the pond).

- Surface Cooling Effects
This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in context.
Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull more
heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural convection.
Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water physics
insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't true,
you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit a point
where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.

It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
right.

Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it will
take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far more
than you could reasonably produce.

That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the water can
adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat the water,
but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air will.

Pumping a large amount of air in would
also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least adjust
for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them into
this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the winter.

For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this warm-air idea
to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm air to
it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run between
your shed and the airstone.

An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about $50-$60:

http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm

Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and build
up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler has
to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.

Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air to the
pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.

The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low. This
is
a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen available once
you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of wastes
by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion of the
oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.

Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange, and the fish
could die.

During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble system
would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of her way
to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite *benefit*
to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper 30's and
40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd be
putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the pond to
absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a shower.
From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems during the
actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during that
transition period.

It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to digest
when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that helps in
digestion will eventually go dormant.

I have bin told to just put one of those heaters that the farmers use to
keep fresh water for there cattle from freezing in to my pond. They have a
built in thermostat and only turn on when the water reaches 33 or 34
degrees. I have also bin told that you should not let the pond freeze over
because of the gas build up and not the lake of oxygen. Are you saying that
I sill should put in a Bubbler?




"George" wrote in message
.. .

"Ka30P" wrote in message
...
Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it
makes a
pretty interesting read.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
From: Roark7
Subject: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
Date: 1997/10/31

David Swarbrick wrote:

Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the water
at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
by the ice being distributed all over.

I question this.

Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and
voiced the
same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*
counter-intuitive...
until you start looking hard.

Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the
circulation,
which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the ground
below
the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and
only had
ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).

First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen water
floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes where
the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only at
the point very near freezing.

I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter
pond"
thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up with
three
things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in
ascending
order of importance:

- The native heat of the earth
- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.

I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:

- Heat of the Earth:
It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right
around
34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower.
The
simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
As you dig down
you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can
be
pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes
below
the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*
there.
The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The
other
effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by
keeping
this slightly warmer water on the bottom.

I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the
geothermal
gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth. But
at
shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill. For
instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave
stays in
the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the cave,
which
depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the
surface,and visa
versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower.
Travel
south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to
ponds, the
surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a
certain
depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the soil
will
not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with
increasing
depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the frost
line is
at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such as
water
lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried six
inches
below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north
latitude,
and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not freeze
(unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case,
your pond
can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year my
pond
only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free the
rest
of the winter.

- Physics of Water:
It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor
sink
when
it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly a
function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it
rises... but
this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-
temperature
curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point
(32.8
F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes
*less*
dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This
difference
is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water, near-freezing
water
*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density
of the
water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy
is
controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the water.
The
more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point has
been
reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater
O2
concentration, this further contributes to stratification.
Near-freezing
water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,
freezes
completely.

Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I
place the
air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that drawing
the
warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of the
water
at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below the
frost
line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into the
water
as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your air
supply
is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air into
the
water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of the
pond
may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish
unless
the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time (in
which
case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the
hose out
to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his pond
from
his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is
actually
pumping heated air into the pond).

- Surface Cooling Effects
This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in
context.
Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull
more
heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural
convection.
Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water
physics
insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't
true,
you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit a
point
where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.

It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
right.

Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it
will
take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far
more
than you could reasonably produce.

That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the water
can
adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat the
water,
but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air
will.

Pumping a large amount of air in would
also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least
adjust
for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them
into
this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the winter.

For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this
warm-air idea
to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm
air to
it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run
between
your shed and the airstone.

An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about $50-$60:

http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm

Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and build
up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler has
to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.

Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air to
the
pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.

The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low.
This
is
a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen
available once
you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of
wastes
by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion
of the
oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.

Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange, and
the fish
could die.

During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble
system
would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of
her way
to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite
*benefit*
to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper
30's and
40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd
be
putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the pond
to
absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a
shower.
From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems
during the
actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during
that
transition period.

It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to
digest
when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that helps
in
digestion will eventually go dormant.

Rick,

The bubbler will keep a hole in the ice for quite a while and is a whole lot
cheaper to run than the electric stock tank heaters. It is true that the
fish don't need much oxygen in their winter stupor, and cold water holds a
lot of oxygen, so the bubbler is probably not necessary for oxygen, but it
does help to drive off other gasses. If the pond does completely freeze
over one night, the stock tank heater can be put in and then will melt a
hole and maintain the hole open until warmer weather returns.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...
I have bin told to just put one of those heaters that the farmers use to
keep fresh water for there cattle from freezing in to my pond. They have
a
built in thermostat and only turn on when the water reaches 33 or 34
degrees. I have also bin told that you should not let the pond freeze
over
because of the gas build up and not the lake of oxygen. Are you saying
that
I sill should put in a Bubbler?




"George" wrote in message
.. .

"Ka30P" wrote in message
...
Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it
makes a
pretty interesting read.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
From: Roark7
Subject: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
Date: 1997/10/31

David Swarbrick wrote:

Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the
water
at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
by the ice being distributed all over.

I question this.

Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and
voiced the
same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*
counter-intuitive...
until you start looking hard.

Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the
circulation,
which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the
ground
below
the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and
only had
ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).

First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen
water
floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes
where
the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only
at
the point very near freezing.

I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter
pond"
thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up
with
three
things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in
ascending
order of importance:

- The native heat of the earth
- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.

I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:

- Heat of the Earth:
It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays
right
around
34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much
lower.
The
simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
As you dig down
you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than
can
be
pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes
below
the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*
there.
The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The
other
effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by
keeping
this slightly warmer water on the bottom.

I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the
geothermal
gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth. But
at
shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill. For
instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave
stays in
the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the cave,
which
depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the
surface,and visa
versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower.
Travel
south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to
ponds, the
surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a
certain
depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the soil
will
not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with
increasing
depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the frost
line is
at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such as
water
lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried six
inches
below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north
latitude,
and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not
freeze
(unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case,
your pond
can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year my
pond
only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free
the
rest
of the winter.

- Physics of Water:
It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor
sink
when
it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly
a
function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it
rises... but
this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-
temperature
curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point
(32.8
F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes
*less*
dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This
difference
is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water,
near-freezing
water
*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density
of the
water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy
is
controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the
water.
The
more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point
has
been
reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater
O2
concentration, this further contributes to stratification.
Near-freezing
water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,
freezes
completely.

Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I
place the
air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that drawing
the
warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of
the
water
at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below the
frost
line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into
the
water
as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your
air
supply
is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air
into
the
water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of the
pond
may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish
unless
the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time (in
which
case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the
hose out
to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his
pond
from
his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is
actually
pumping heated air into the pond).

- Surface Cooling Effects
This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in
context.
Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull
more
heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural
convection.
Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water
physics
insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't
true,
you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit
a
point
where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.

It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
right.

Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but
it
will
take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far
more
than you could reasonably produce.

That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the
water
can
adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat the
water,
but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air
will.

Pumping a large amount of air in would
also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least
adjust
for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them
into
this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the
winter.

For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this
warm-air idea
to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm
air to
it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run
between
your shed and the airstone.

An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about
$50-$60:

http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm

Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and
build
up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler
has
to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.

Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air to
the
pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.

The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low.
This
is
a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen
available once
you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of
wastes
by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion
of the
oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.

Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange, and
the fish
could die.

During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble
system
would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of
her way
to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite
*benefit*
to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper
30's and
40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd
be
putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the
pond
to
absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a
shower.
From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems
during the
actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during
that
transition period.

It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to
digest
when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that
helps
in
digestion will eventually go dormant.

"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...
I have bin told to just put one of those heaters that the farmers use to
keep fresh water for there cattle from freezing in to my pond. They have a
built in thermostat and only turn on when the water reaches 33 or 34
degrees. I have also bin told that you should not let the pond freeze over
because of the gas build up and not the lake of oxygen. Are you saying that
I sill should put in a Bubbler?


If you have large fish, or a lot of them, then yes you need to add air to the
water to keep it oxygenated. I do have a de-icer, and use it when the weather
gets really bad, but haven't had to use it much since I built the pond, because
we've only had two really cold days in the last two years. Here is a link to
the de-icer that I have:

http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm

Scroll down the page and look at the first de-icer shown. That is the one that
I have.



"George" wrote in message
.. .

"Ka30P" wrote in message
...
Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it
makes a
pretty interesting read.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
From: Roark7
Subject: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
Date: 1997/10/31

David Swarbrick wrote:

Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the water
at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
by the ice being distributed all over.

I question this.

Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and
voiced the
same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*
counter-intuitive...
until you start looking hard.

Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the
circulation,
which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the ground
below
the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and
only had
ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).

First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen water
floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes where
the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only at
the point very near freezing.

I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter
pond"
thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up with
three
things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in
ascending
order of importance:

- The native heat of the earth
- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.

I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:

- Heat of the Earth:
It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right
around
34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower.
The
simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
As you dig down
you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can
be
pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes
below
the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*
there.
The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The
other
effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by
keeping
this slightly warmer water on the bottom.

I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the
geothermal
gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth. But
at
shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill. For
instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave
stays in
the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the cave,
which
depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the
surface,and visa
versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower.
Travel
south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to
ponds, the
surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a
certain
depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the soil
will
not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with
increasing
depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the frost
line is
at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such as
water
lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried six
inches
below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north
latitude,
and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not freeze
(unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case,
your pond
can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year my
pond
only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free the
rest
of the winter.

- Physics of Water:
It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor
sink
when
it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly a
function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it
rises... but
this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-
temperature
curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point
(32.8
F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes
*less*
dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This
difference
is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water, near-freezing
water
*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density
of the
water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy
is
controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the water.
The
more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point has
been
reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater
O2
concentration, this further contributes to stratification.
Near-freezing
water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,
freezes
completely.

Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I
place the
air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that drawing
the
warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of the
water
at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below the
frost
line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into the
water
as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your air
supply
is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air into
the
water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of the
pond
may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish
unless
the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time (in
which
case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the
hose out
to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his pond
from
his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is
actually
pumping heated air into the pond).

- Surface Cooling Effects
This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in
context.
Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull
more
heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural
convection.
Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water
physics
insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't
true,
you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit a
point
where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.

It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
right.

Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it
will
take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far
more
than you could reasonably produce.

That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the water
can
adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat the
water,
but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air
will.

Pumping a large amount of air in would
also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least
adjust
for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them
into
this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the winter.

For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this
warm-air idea
to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm
air to
it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run
between
your shed and the airstone.

An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about $50-$60:

http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm

Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and build
up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler has
to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.

Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air to
the
pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.

The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low.
This
is
a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen
available once
you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of
wastes
by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion
of the
oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.

Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange, and
the fish
could die.

During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble
system
would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of
her way
to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite
*benefit*
to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper
30's and
40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd
be
putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the pond
to
absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a
shower.
From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems
during the
actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during
that
transition period.

It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to
digest
when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that helps
in
digestion will eventually go dormant.

Rick,

I don't have that much problem with total ice cover and
according the Farmer's Almanac this winter is suppose
to be mild in my region, but there have been winters
with total solid ice cover.

Over the years I have checked trough de-icers and they
usually run 1,000 to 1,500 watts and the thermostats
that some of them have turn on between 38 degrees F. to
34 degrees F. depending on the brand. Needless to say,
the cost of running one can be high, so I have used
airstones.

The airstone may not keep a hole in the ice but it will
cause an escape for the air through the ice which is
what needed. One of the years when the ponds froze
over sold I came out and told myself, "what a waste,"
because there was no hole. Upon closer inspection I
found that the air was making its way up through
channels created as the ice froze. One of the
important things that you have to remember when using
an airstone is to have the airstone just below where
the thickness of the ice will accumulate, you don't
want to disturb the water layers at the bottom of the
pond, so keep it high in upper level of your pond. I
have switched over to an air blower so my airstones
this year will only be about 6 inches below the surface
of the water, which for me is more than enough.

Good luck with what ever technique you decide to use.

HTH

Tom L.L.

Rick wrote:
I have bin told to just put one of those heaters that the farmers use to
keep fresh water for there cattle from freezing in to my pond. They have a
built in thermostat and only turn on when the water reaches 33 or 34
degrees. I have also bin told that you should not let the pond freeze over
because of the gas build up and not the lake of oxygen. Are you saying that
I sill should put in a Bubbler?




"George" wrote in message
.. .

"Ka30P" wrote in message
...

Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it

makes a

pretty interesting read.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
From: Roark7
Subject: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
Date: 1997/10/31

David Swarbrick wrote:


Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the water
at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
by the ice being distributed all over.

I question this.

Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and

voiced the

same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*

counter-intuitive...

until you start looking hard.

Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the

circulation,

which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the ground

below

the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and

only had

ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).


First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen water
floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes where
the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only at
the point very near freezing.

I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter

pond"

thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up with

three

things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in

ascending

order of importance:

- The native heat of the earth
- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.

I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:

- Heat of the Earth:
It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right

around

34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower.

The

simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
As you dig down
you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can

be

pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes

below

the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*

there.

The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The

other

effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by

keeping

this slightly warmer water on the bottom.

I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the

geothermal

gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth. But

at

shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill. For
instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave

stays in

the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the cave,

which

depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the

surface,and visa

versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower.

Travel

south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to

ponds, the

surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a

certain

depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the soil

will

not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with

increasing

depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the frost

line is

at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such as

water

lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried six

inches

below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north

latitude,

and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not freeze
(unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case,

your pond

can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year my

pond

only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free the

rest

of the winter.


- Physics of Water:
It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor

sink

when
it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly a
function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it

rises... but

this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-

temperature

curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point

(32.8

F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes

*less*

dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This

difference

is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water, near-freezing

water

*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density

of the

water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy

is

controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the water.

The

more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point has

been

reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater

O2

concentration, this further contributes to stratification.

Near-freezing

water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,

freezes

completely.

Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I

place the

air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that drawing

the

warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of the

water

at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below the

frost

line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into the

water

as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your air

supply

is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air into

the

water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of the

pond

may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish

unless

the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time (in

which

case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the

hose out

to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his pond

from

his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is

actually

pumping heated air into the pond).


- Surface Cooling Effects
This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in

context.

Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull

more

heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural

convection.

Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water

physics

insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't

true,

you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit a

point

where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.


It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
right.

Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it

will

take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far

more

than you could reasonably produce.

That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the water

can

adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat the

water,

but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air

will.

Pumping a large amount of air in would
also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least

adjust

for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them

into

this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the winter.

For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this

warm-air idea

to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm

air to

it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run

between

your shed and the airstone.

An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about $50-$60:

http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm


Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and build
up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler has
to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.

Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air to

the

pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.


The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low.

This

is
a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen

available once

you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of

wastes

by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion

of the

oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.

Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange, and

the fish

could die.


During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble

system

would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of

her way

to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite

*benefit*

to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper

30's and

40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd

be

putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the pond

to

absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a

shower.

From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems

during the

actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during

that

transition period.

It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to

digest

when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that helps

in

digestion will eventually go dormant.

Tom
How big of a bubbler do I get? Looked a Wally Word and the biggest one is
for a 40 to 60 gal tank. my pond is give or take 1200 gal.

"Tom L. La Bron" wrote in message
...
Rick,

I don't have that much problem with total ice cover and
according the Farmer's Almanac this winter is suppose
to be mild in my region, but there have been winters
with total solid ice cover.

Over the years I have checked trough de-icers and they
usually run 1,000 to 1,500 watts and the thermostats
that some of them have turn on between 38 degrees F. to
34 degrees F. depending on the brand. Needless to say,
the cost of running one can be high, so I have used
airstones.

The airstone may not keep a hole in the ice but it will
cause an escape for the air through the ice which is
what needed. One of the years when the ponds froze
over sold I came out and told myself, "what a waste,"
because there was no hole. Upon closer inspection I
found that the air was making its way up through
channels created as the ice froze. One of the
important things that you have to remember when using
an airstone is to have the airstone just below where
the thickness of the ice will accumulate, you don't
want to disturb the water layers at the bottom of the
pond, so keep it high in upper level of your pond. I
have switched over to an air blower so my airstones
this year will only be about 6 inches below the surface
of the water, which for me is more than enough.

Good luck with what ever technique you decide to use.

HTH

Tom L.L.

Rick wrote:
I have bin told to just put one of those heaters that the farmers use to
keep fresh water for there cattle from freezing in to my pond. They
have a
built in thermostat and only turn on when the water reaches 33 or 34
degrees. I have also bin told that you should not let the pond freeze
over
because of the gas build up and not the lake of oxygen. Are you saying
that
I sill should put in a Bubbler?




"George" wrote in message
.. .

"Ka30P" wrote in message
...

Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it

makes a

pretty interesting read.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
From: Roark7
Subject: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
Date: 1997/10/31

David Swarbrick wrote:


Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the
water
at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
by the ice being distributed all over.

I question this.

Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and

voiced the

same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*

counter-intuitive...

until you start looking hard.

Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the

circulation,

which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the
ground

below

the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and

only had

ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).


First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen
water
floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes
where
the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only
at
the point very near freezing.

I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter

pond"

thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up
with

three

things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in

ascending

order of importance:

- The native heat of the earth
- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.

I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:

- Heat of the Earth:
It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right

around

34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower.

The

simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
As you dig down
you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can

be

pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes

below

the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*

there.

The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The

other

effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by

keeping

this slightly warmer water on the bottom.

I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the

geothermal

gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth. But

at

shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill. For
instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave

stays in

the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the cave,

which

depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the

surface,and visa

versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower.

Travel

south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to

ponds, the

surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a

certain

depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the soil

will

not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with

increasing

depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the frost

line is

at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such as

water

lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried six

inches

below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north

latitude,

and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not
freeze
(unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case,

your pond

can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year my

pond

only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free
the

rest

of the winter.


- Physics of Water:
It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor

sink

when
it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly
a
function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it

rises... but

this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-

temperature

curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point

(32.8

F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes

*less*

dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This

difference

is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water,
near-freezing

water

*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density

of the

water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy

is

controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the
water.

The

more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point
has

been

reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater

O2

concentration, this further contributes to stratification.

Near-freezing

water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,

freezes

completely.

Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I

place the

air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that drawing

the

warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of
the

water

at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below the

frost

line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into
the

water

as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your
air

supply

is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air
into

the

water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of the

pond

may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish

unless

the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time (in

which

case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the

hose out

to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his
pond

from

his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is

actually

pumping heated air into the pond).


- Surface Cooling Effects
This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in

context.

Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull

more

heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural

convection.

Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water

physics

insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't

true,

you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit
a

point

where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.


It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
right.

Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it

will

take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far

more

than you could reasonably produce.

That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the
water

can

adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat the

water,

but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air

will.

Pumping a large amount of air in would
also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least

adjust

for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them

into

this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the
winter.

For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this

warm-air idea

to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm

air to

it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run

between

your shed and the airstone.

An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about
$50-$60:

http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm


Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and
build
up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler
has
to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.

Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air to

the

pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.


The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low.

This

is
a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen

available once

you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of

wastes

by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion

of the

oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.

Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange, and

the fish

could die.


During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble

system

would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of

her way

to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite

*benefit*

to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper

30's and

40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd

be

putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the
pond

to

absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a

shower.

From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems

during the

actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during

that

transition period.

It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to

digest

when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that
helps

in

digestion will eventually go dormant.

Rick,

One year I did buy a Luft pump from drsfostersmith.com
which is pretty powerful, but other air pumps I get I
usually get from Wally-World, and I buy the $9.95 unit.
I also use a T-connector and bring both of the outlets
into one hose and add my airstone.

Tom L.L.
-------------------------------------------
Rick wrote:
Tom
How big of a bubbler do I get? Looked a Wally Word and the biggest one is
for a 40 to 60 gal tank. my pond is give or take 1200 gal.

"Tom L. La Bron" wrote in message
...

Rick,

I don't have that much problem with total ice cover and
according the Farmer's Almanac this winter is suppose
to be mild in my region, but there have been winters
with total solid ice cover.

Over the years I have checked trough de-icers and they
usually run 1,000 to 1,500 watts and the thermostats
that some of them have turn on between 38 degrees F. to
34 degrees F. depending on the brand. Needless to say,
the cost of running one can be high, so I have used
airstones.

The airstone may not keep a hole in the ice but it will
cause an escape for the air through the ice which is
what needed. One of the years when the ponds froze
over sold I came out and told myself, "what a waste,"
because there was no hole. Upon closer inspection I
found that the air was making its way up through
channels created as the ice froze. One of the
important things that you have to remember when using
an airstone is to have the airstone just below where
the thickness of the ice will accumulate, you don't
want to disturb the water layers at the bottom of the
pond, so keep it high in upper level of your pond. I
have switched over to an air blower so my airstones
this year will only be about 6 inches below the surface
of the water, which for me is more than enough.

Good luck with what ever technique you decide to use.

HTH

Tom L.L.

Rick wrote:

I have bin told to just put one of those heaters that the farmers use to
keep fresh water for there cattle from freezing in to my pond. They

have a

built in thermostat and only turn on when the water reaches 33 or 34
degrees. I have also bin told that you should not let the pond freeze

over

because of the gas build up and not the lake of oxygen. Are you saying

that

I sill should put in a Bubbler?




"George" wrote in message
t...


"Ka30P" wrote in message
...


Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it

makes a


pretty interesting read.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~
From: Roark7
Subject: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
Date: 1997/10/31

David Swarbrick wrote:



Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a pond
over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the pond,
but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the

water

at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold water
by the ice being distributed all over.

I question this.

Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and

voiced the


same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*

counter-intuitive...


until you start looking hard.

Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the

circulation,


which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the

ground

below


the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and

only had


ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).



First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the bottom
will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen

water

floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes

where

the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only

at

the point very near freezing.

I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter

pond"


thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up

with

three


things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in

ascending


order of importance:

- The native heat of the earth
- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.

I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:

- Heat of the Earth:
It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays right

around


34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much lower.

The


simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
As you dig down
you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than can

be


pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water pipes

below


the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*

there.


The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time. The

other


effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by

keeping


this slightly warmer water on the bottom.

I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the

geothermal


gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth. But

at


shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill. For
instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave

stays in


the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the cave,

which


depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the

surface,and visa


versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower.

Travel


south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to

ponds, the


surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a

certain


depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the soil

will


not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with

increasing


depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the frost

line is


at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such as

water


lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried six

inches


below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north

latitude,


and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not

freeze

(unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case,

your pond


can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year my

pond


only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free

the

rest


of the winter.



- Physics of Water:
It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor

sink


when
it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is strictly

a

function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it

rises... but


this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-

temperature


curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing point

(32.8


F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes

*less*


dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This

difference


is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water,

near-freezing

water


*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The density

of the


water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final bouyancy

is


controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the

water.

The


more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point

has

been


reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a greater

O2


concentration, this further contributes to stratification.

Near-freezing


water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,

freezes


completely.

Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I

place the


air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that drawing

the


warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of

the

water


at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below the

frost


line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into

the

water


as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your

air

supply


is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air

into

the


water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of the

pond


may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish

unless


the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time (in

which


case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the

hose out


to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his

pond

from


his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is

actually


pumping heated air into the pond).



- Surface Cooling Effects
This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in

context.


Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to pull

more


heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural

convection.


Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water

physics


insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't

true,


you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just hit

a

point


where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.



It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in my
case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
right.

Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but it

will


take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature.... far

more


than you could reasonably produce.

That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the

water

can


adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat the

water,


but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air

will.


Pumping a large amount of air in would
also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least

adjust


for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them

into


this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the

winter.

For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this

warm-air idea


to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm

air to


it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short run

between


your shed and the airstone.

An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about

$50-$60:

http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm



Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and

build

up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler

has

to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.

Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air to

the


pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.



The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very low.

This


is
a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen

available once


you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of

wastes


by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent portion

of the


oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.

Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange, and

the fish


could die.



During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown bubble

system


would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out of

her way


to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite

*benefit*


to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper

30's and


40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion, you'd

be


putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the

pond

to


absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't be
oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a

shower.


From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems

during the


actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool during

that


transition period.

It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to

digest


when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that

helps

in


digestion will eventually go dormant.

It is not the size of the bubbler that is important. You are not trying to
achieve filtration by air driven under gravel filters, you are trying to
keep the top surface of the water disturbed to prevent freezing over. Any
of the pumps will work, just put a big airstone on the line, suspend the
airstone a few inches from the top, and let it do the work of a heater.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/index.html

"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...
Tom
How big of a bubbler do I get? Looked a Wally Word and the biggest one is
for a 40 to 60 gal tank. my pond is give or take 1200 gal.

"Tom L. La Bron" wrote in message
...
Rick,

I don't have that much problem with total ice cover and
according the Farmer's Almanac this winter is suppose
to be mild in my region, but there have been winters
with total solid ice cover.

Over the years I have checked trough de-icers and they
usually run 1,000 to 1,500 watts and the thermostats
that some of them have turn on between 38 degrees F. to
34 degrees F. depending on the brand. Needless to say,
the cost of running one can be high, so I have used
airstones.

The airstone may not keep a hole in the ice but it will
cause an escape for the air through the ice which is
what needed. One of the years when the ponds froze
over sold I came out and told myself, "what a waste,"
because there was no hole. Upon closer inspection I
found that the air was making its way up through
channels created as the ice froze. One of the
important things that you have to remember when using
an airstone is to have the airstone just below where
the thickness of the ice will accumulate, you don't
want to disturb the water layers at the bottom of the
pond, so keep it high in upper level of your pond. I
have switched over to an air blower so my airstones
this year will only be about 6 inches below the surface
of the water, which for me is more than enough.

Good luck with what ever technique you decide to use.

HTH

Tom L.L.

Rick wrote:
I have bin told to just put one of those heaters that the farmers use
to
keep fresh water for there cattle from freezing in to my pond. They
have a
built in thermostat and only turn on when the water reaches 33 or 34
degrees. I have also bin told that you should not let the pond freeze
over
because of the gas build up and not the lake of oxygen. Are you
saying
that
I sill should put in a Bubbler?




"George" wrote in message
.. .

"Ka30P" wrote in message
...

Roark did a bit on water and winter in response to a question and it

makes a

pretty interesting read.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
From: Roark7
Subject: Bubbling bottoms and super cooling
Date: 1997/10/31

David Swarbrick wrote:


Bubblers are recommended for maintaining an ice free portion of a
pond
over winter, and maintaining good oxygen levels. I have also seen it
suggested here that it should not be placed on the bottom of the
pond,
but raised so that the circulation it induces does not disturb the
water
at the every bottom because this merely results in the very cold
water
by the ice being distributed all over.

I question this.

Yep... And I don't blame you one bit. I had the same doubts and

voiced the

same arguments that you shortly share because it *is*

counter-intuitive...

until you start looking hard.

Actually, if your pond is deep, like mine (45 inches or more), the

circulation,

which goes from bottom to top, will draw the residual warmth in the
ground

below

the frost line to the upper levels of the pond, and moderate the water
temperature. I ran a bubbler from the bottom all winter last year and

only had

ice two days (less than 1/8 inch thick, at that, and only on one end).


First, warm water rises, and cold water sinks. The water at the
bottom
will always circulate if there is a temperature difference. Frozen
water
floats. I suppose there must be a point just before water freezes
where
the situation turns on its head, but I assume also that this is only
at
the point very near freezing.

I had major questions about the physics aspect of this whole "winter

pond"

thingy as well. I did some asking and a bit of research and came up
with

three

things which cause the inverse stratification effect. These are, in

ascending

order of importance:

- The native heat of the earth
- The physics of water going from a liquid to a solid
- Surface cooling due to winds and cold air.

I'll rattle through each contributing effect in detail below:

- Heat of the Earth:
It turns out that the earthern bottom of a 4-foot deep pond stays
right

around

34-38 degrees even though the outside air temperature drops much
lower.

The

simple reason for this is the Earth is slightly exothermic.
As you dig down
you hit a point where more heat is being released by the earth than
can

be

pulled-away by wind, night sky, etc. This is why you bury water
pipes

below

the "frost line". This heating effect is small in ponds, but it *is*

there.

The earth *is* pumping a bit of heat energy into it all the time.
The

other

effects (below) tend to magnify this effect into something useful by

keeping

this slightly warmer water on the bottom.

I will add here that the residual heat of the earth is called the

geothermal

gradient, and varies from place to place, and increases with depth.
But

at

shallow depth, it is affected by surface temperatureand wind chill.
For
instance, at the latitude where I live (38 degrees), the air in a cave

stays in

the vicinity of 54 degrees F, depending on air currents within the
cave,

which

depend on the connectivity of cave passages, and the number of surface
entrances, all of which can affect the transfer the heat to the

surface,and visa

versa. Travel north of this latitude, and the temperature is lower.

Travel

south of this latitude and the temperature is higher. With regard to

ponds, the

surface temperature has an effect on the soil, but only to within a

certain

depth. That depth is called the frost line. Below that depth, the
soil

will

not freeze, but will retain it's residual warmth, and increase with

increasing

depth. The frost line varies with latitude. At my latitude, the
frost

line is

at 22 inches. In order to keep buried utilities from freezing (such
as

water

lines), the local building codes required the utilities to be buried
six

inches

below the frost line, at 28 inches. If you live at 38 Degrees north

latitude,

and your pond is 45 inches deep, then the bottom 17 inches will not
freeze
(unless, of course, you have an abnormally cold winter, in which case,

your pond

can actually freeze solid, but this is rare in most cases). Lat year
my

pond

only had a small surface crust for two days, and then stayed ice free
the

rest

of the winter.


- Physics of Water:
It turns out that water doesn't move upwards because it is "warm" nor

sink

when
it becomes "cold". A little thought reveals this behavior is
strictly
a
function of density. Warmer water *tends* to be less dense so it

rises... but

this isn't gospel. An interesting kink in the water density -vs-

temperature

curve shows-up just prior to 32 degrees F. At the pre-freezing
point

(32.8

F), water undergoes a major density change. As it cools it becomes

*less*

dense than water which is just a fraction of a degree warmer. This

difference

is fairly large. Being lighter than the surrounding water,
near-freezing

water

*rises*. (This is one reason frozen pipes tend to burst. The
density

of the

water decreases, the mass stays the same, so the result is volumetric
expansion which splits pipes with ease.) The degree of final
bouyancy

is

controlled to a large part by the dissolved oxygen content of the
water.

The

more dissolved O2, the greater the expansion once the freezing point
has

been

reached. Since water at the *top* of the pond tends to have a
greater

O2

concentration, this further contributes to stratification.

Near-freezing

water moves toward the surface, and then, having reached the surface,

freezes

completely.

Unless, of course, you draw warmer water up from below, which is why I

place the

air stone at the bottom in the winter. Some have suggested that
drawing

the

warmer water from the bottom to the top will cause the temperature of
the

water

at the bottom to drop. But that doesn't happen if the pond is below
the

frost

line because the surrounding soil will release it's residual heat into
the

water

as the warmer water is drawn towards the surface. Of course, if your
air

supply

is outside, and the temperature gets very cold, pumping that cold air
into

the

water could affect the water temperature. The overall temperture of
the

pond

may drop slightly, but usually not enough to adversely affect the fish

unless

the air temperatuere stays below freezing for a long period of time
(in

which

case, you might consider keeping your air pump indoors and running the

hose out

to the pond. I know a guy who has installed a buried air hose to his
pond

from

his basement, where his air pump is located. So in the winter, he is

actually

pumping heated air into the pond).


- Surface Cooling Effects
This one is pretty obvious, but its worth restating to put it in

context.

Given a sub-freezing day and a brisk wind, its a simple matter to
pull

more

heat from the top layer of water than can be replaced by natural

convection.

Once the top starts to freeze, heat loss to ambient and basic water

physics

insures the top will *stay* cooler than the bottom. If this wasn't

true,

you'd never see a thin coat of ice.... the pond would instead just
hit
a

point

where the entire thing suddenly became a solid chunk of ice.


It seems to me that if the air being pumped in is warmer anyway (in
my
case, from inside an unheated shed), then the balance will be about
right.

Your idea about pumping warm air into the water isn't a bad one, but
it

will

take a lot of warm air to make a dent in the ponds temperature....
far

more

than you could reasonably produce.

That is true. However, as I stated above, pumping cold air into the
water

can

adversely affect the water temperature. So, the warm air won't heat
the

water,

but will simply prevent it from making the water colder than cold air

will.

Pumping a large amount of air in would
also create currents which the fish would need to fight or at least

adjust

for. Hibernating fish are in no position to do this and forcing them

into

this situation uses energy they will need during the rest of the
winter.

For keeping a hole in the ice however, you could likely use this

warm-air idea

to your benefit. Put an airstone a foot under the water and run warm

air to

it. Bear in mind that you will lose lots of heat in just a short
run

between

your shed and the airstone.

An alternative would be to purchase an electric deicer for about
$50-$60:

http://www.pondsolutions.com/pond-heaters.htm


Also if the problem with water under ice is the lack of oxygen and
build
up of waste products under the ice, then the more chance the bubbler
has
to oxygenate the water and take away the foul water the better.

Whether you use a de-icer or not, it is always a good idea to add air
to

the

pond in the winter time for the reasons you state above.


The oxygen demands of fish near the freezing point are very, very
low.

This

is
a good thing because I've got a feeling there isn't much oxygen

available once

you near the peak of winter. Fortunately, decay and decomposition of

wastes

by bacteria has nearly stopped as well which relieves a decent
portion

of the

oxygen load. Very little oxygen is needed in a winter pond.

Unless it freezes over, in which case, there is no oxygen exchange,
and

the fish

could die.


During a really *cold* winter, I think the idea of a full-blown
bubble

system

would tend to upset a natural balance which Nature clearly went out
of

her way

to establish. Having said that however, I can see a very definite

*benefit*

to using such a system as the air temp starts to push into the upper

30's and

40's. By introducing additional air and inducing water motion,
you'd

be

putting lots of needed oxygen into the water as well as helping the
pond

to

absorb ambient heat. Fish coming out of their winter sleep wouldn't
be
oxygen-stressed as well as being thin, worn and badly in need in of a

shower.

From what I'm given to understand, most fish have no problems

during the

actual *wintering*... its the *transition* from hibernation to normal
metabolism which gets them. Your bubbler could be a great tool
during

that

transition period.

It is also important to transition your fish to food that is easier to

digest

when preparing the pond for winter as the microbes in their gut that
helps

in

digestion will eventually go dormant.