Need help - suicidal shubunkans

Help! My shubunkans are jumping out of my barrel pond. I knew I'd lost
a shubunkan over vacation but figured it was ammonia or something.
There was no way to find a corpse in the green water so I didn't know
what happened. I bought three more and put them in the pond on Friday.
All 3 were alive and accounted for Sunday. Today, I could only find
two. I finally looked on the ground, and there were two dead jumpers.

Do shubunkans commonly jump? Do I need netting over the barrel with
them? If so, how do I handle the marginals and water lettuce which are
sticking up out of the barrel? Please help! I don't want to find any
more dead fish on the ground.

Also, while I'm on the subject of shubunkans, one fish is constantly
chasing the other. I can't figure out whether it's aggression or mating
behavior. Will this stress out the chasee, and would a third fish help?
(Assuming I can keep it in the barrel and off the concrete.)

Thanks for any advice.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

"Otto Pylot" wrote in message
...
In article , Elaine T
wrote:

Help! My shubunkans are jumping out of my barrel pond. I knew I'd lost
a shubunkan over vacation but figured it was ammonia or something.
There was no way to find a corpse in the green water so I didn't know
what happened. I bought three more and put them in the pond on Friday.
All 3 were alive and accounted for Sunday. Today, I could only find
two. I finally looked on the ground, and there were two dead jumpers.

Do shubunkans commonly jump? Do I need netting over the barrel with
them? If so, how do I handle the marginals and water lettuce which are
sticking up out of the barrel? Please help! I don't want to find any
more dead fish on the ground.

We have 4 Shubunkins in our outdoor pond. Yes, they can jump every now
and then but ours have stayed in the pond. Granted it's about 1200
gallons so they'd have to jump really far to make it out.

Also, while I'm on the subject of shubunkans, one fish is constantly
chasing the other. I can't figure out whether it's aggression or mating
behavior. Will this stress out the chasee, and would a third fish help?
(Assuming I can keep it in the barrel and off the concrete.)

Yes, they are frisky little fish. Our's chase each other all the time
but we've never noticed that to be a problem nor have we seen any fry,
at least not yet. In fact, two of them are "missing" right now. We see
them every now and then so maybe because it's close to spring and the
water is getting warmer they're doing the fish thing.

--
Deja Moo: I've seen this bull**** before.

My address has been anti-spammed.
Please reply to: replacing invalid with sonic.

I don't know what calander you use, but mine says that it is spring already.
The green water should be a clue. If you had fish jumping out before, and
replaced them with more fish, who are now jumping out, you likely have water
quality problem. I would do at least a 50% water change immediately, followed
by a 10% change in about a week. You need to get whatever (probably ammonia or
very high nitrates) is irritating them out of the water. You probably also need
to add more water flow/aeration, at a minimum. Is your pond filtered? Another
possibility is that they are mating (yes, it's just about that time of year).

George wrote:


I don't know what calander you use, but mine says that it is spring already.
The green water should be a clue. If you had fish jumping out before, and
replaced them with more fish, who are now jumping out, you likely have water
quality problem. I would do at least a 50% water change immediately, followed
by a 10% change in about a week. You need to get whatever (probably ammonia or
very high nitrates) is irritating them out of the water. You probably also need
to add more water flow/aeration, at a minimum. Is your pond filtered? Another
possibility is that they are mating (yes, it's just about that time of year).


Thanks. It's definately spring here. I'm in zone 10.
Lessee...

I tested and water is 0/0/5 ammonia/nitrite/nitrate, pH 7.0. I seeded
bacteria from my indoor fish tanks and added a lot of plants at the
start so I never really saw any ammonia or nitrites. Gambusia to went
in about 6 weeks ago, and I added some white clouds 4 weeks ago. The
white clouds have spawned and fry are alive, consistent with very good
water quality.

Volume is approx. 70 gallons across 3 whisky barrels connected with DIY
spillways. The spillways stop about 2" from the water surface to get a
bit of splash, pleasant sound, and good aeration. Circulation is strong
at about 200 gph, filtration is a sponge prefilter over cages of bio balls.

Due to problems with the spillways leaking and having to drain for
repairs, I've been unintentionally changing about 15-20 gallons a week.

I think the green water is from a sudden change to warmer weather and a
lot of sunlight. From what I've been reading, I'll have trouble with
various sorts of algae until about 2/3 of the pond surface is covered
with floating plants or shaded by marginals and they haven't gotten that
far yet.

So, as far as I know there is nothing about the water itself that would
cause a fish to jump out. I've been keeping aquaria for a long time and
understand basic fish needs. However, I'm new to goldfish and ponds.
Do you think one of the jumpers could have been a female without eggs
trying to escape an overly amorous male?

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Last year I kept having problems with shubunkins jumping out of the
wifes half barrel feature. Water parameters were just fine. I
eventually got tired of finding the fish out of water (seem this one
shubunkin kept pressing his luck with the thought I would always find
it in due time before it was too late) so I put up a small barrier
made out of 1/2" sq plastic mesh. Sort of like a fish fence. It kept
the shubunkins in and eventually I removed it and they stayed put
until I removed them to the larger pond late last year. This year so
far we have two small koi and about 8 or so small feeder type GF in
the two half barrels and none have made any attempts at jumping out.
It seems only the shubunkins ever jumped out. One finsh in particular
must have jumped out at least 7 or 8 times, with a few of those times
I did not think he would make it, but its still doing fine.

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 02:32:45 GMT, Elaine T
wrote:

===Help! My shubunkans are jumping out of my barrel pond. I knew I'd lost
===a shubunkan over vacation but figured it was ammonia or something.
===There was no way to find a corpse in the green water so I didn't know
===what happened. I bought three more and put them in the pond on Friday.
=== All 3 were alive and accounted for Sunday. Today, I could only find
===two. I finally looked on the ground, and there were two dead jumpers.
===
===Do shubunkans commonly jump? Do I need netting over the barrel with
===them? If so, how do I handle the marginals and water lettuce which are
===sticking up out of the barrel? Please help! I don't want to find any
===more dead fish on the ground.
===
===Also, while I'm on the subject of shubunkans, one fish is constantly
===chasing the other. I can't figure out whether it's aggression or mating
===behavior. Will this stress out the chasee, and would a third fish help?
=== (Assuming I can keep it in the barrel and off the concrete.)
===
===Thanks for any advice.


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

"Elaine T" wrote in message
m...
George wrote:


I don't know what calander you use, but mine says that it is spring already.
The green water should be a clue. If you had fish jumping out before, and
replaced them with more fish, who are now jumping out, you likely have water
quality problem. I would do at least a 50% water change immediately,
followed by a 10% change in about a week. You need to get whatever (probably
ammonia or very high nitrates) is irritating them out of the water. You
probably also need to add more water flow/aeration, at a minimum. Is your
pond filtered? Another possibility is that they are mating (yes, it's just
about that time of year).
Thanks. It's definately spring here. I'm in zone 10.
Lessee...

I tested and water is 0/0/5 ammonia/nitrite/nitrate, pH 7.0. I seeded
bacteria from my indoor fish tanks and added a lot of plants at the start so I
never really saw any ammonia or nitrites. Gambusia to went in about 6 weeks
ago, and I added some white clouds 4 weeks ago. The white clouds have spawned
and fry are alive, consistent with very good water quality.

Volume is approx. 70 gallons across 3 whisky barrels connected with DIY
spillways. The spillways stop about 2" from the water surface to get a bit of
splash, pleasant sound, and good aeration. Circulation is strong at about 200
gph, filtration is a sponge prefilter over cages of bio balls.

Due to problems with the spillways leaking and having to drain for repairs,
I've been unintentionally changing about 15-20 gallons a week.

I think the green water is from a sudden change to warmer weather and a lot of
sunlight. From what I've been reading, I'll have trouble with various sorts
of algae until about 2/3 of the pond surface is covered with floating plants
or shaded by marginals and they haven't gotten that far yet.

So, as far as I know there is nothing about the water itself that would cause
a fish to jump out. I've been keeping aquaria for a long time and understand
basic fish needs. However, I'm new to goldfish and ponds. Do you think one of
the jumpers could have been a female without eggs trying to escape an overly
amorous male?


Well, it is possible that since you only have 70 gallons, that you may have too
many large fish in your barrel pond and they are simply competing for mates and
for space. I have 2 shubukins and have never had a problem with them jumping,
but then, my pond is 12'x4'x45" deep, at around 1200-1400 gallons. In three
years, I've had one goldfish jump out, but that was after a heavy rain storm
last summer when my pond got to about 2 inches from the top. Here is a picture
of my pond that also describes my filtration system:

http://home.insightbb.com/~jryates/filter.htm

~Roy~ wrote:
Last year I kept having problems with shubunkins jumping out of the
wifes half barrel feature. Water parameters were just fine. I
eventually got tired of finding the fish out of water (seem this one
shubunkin kept pressing his luck with the thought I would always find
it in due time before it was too late) so I put up a small barrier
made out of 1/2" sq plastic mesh. Sort of like a fish fence. It kept
the shubunkins in and eventually I removed it and they stayed put
until I removed them to the larger pond late last year. This year so
far we have two small koi and about 8 or so small feeder type GF in
the two half barrels and none have made any attempts at jumping out.
It seems only the shubunkins ever jumped out. One finsh in particular
must have jumped out at least 7 or 8 times, with a few of those times
I did not think he would make it, but its still doing fine.

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 02:32:45 GMT, Elaine T
wrote:


===Help! My shubunkans are jumping out of my barrel pond. I knew I'd lost
===a shubunkan over vacation but figured it was ammonia or something.
===There was no way to find a corpse in the green water so I didn't know
===what happened. I bought three more and put them in the pond on Friday.
=== All 3 were alive and accounted for Sunday. Today, I could only find
===two. I finally looked on the ground, and there were two dead jumpers.
===
===Do shubunkans commonly jump? Do I need netting over the barrel with
===them? If so, how do I handle the marginals and water lettuce which are
===sticking up out of the barrel? Please help! I don't want to find any
===more dead fish on the ground.
===
===Also, while I'm on the subject of shubunkans, one fish is constantly
===chasing the other. I can't figure out whether it's aggression or mating
===behavior. Will this stress out the chasee, and would a third fish help?
=== (Assuming I can keep it in the barrel and off the concrete.)
===
===Thanks for any advice.



==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

I was thinking of a barrier like that. I'll try that first, and if that
fails, I'll separate the fish so they're one to a barrel.

Thanks, Roy and George

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Elaine T wrote:
~Roy~ wrote:

Last year I kept having problems with shubunkins jumping out of the
wifes half barrel feature. Water parameters were just fine. I
eventually got tired of finding the fish out of water (seem this one
shubunkin kept pressing his luck with the thought I would always find
it in due time before it was too late) so I put up a small barrier
made out of 1/2" sq plastic mesh. Sort of like a fish fence. It kept
the shubunkins in and eventually I removed it and they stayed put
until I removed them to the larger pond late last year. This year so
far we have two small koi and about 8 or so small feeder type GF in
the two half barrels and none have made any attempts at jumping out.
It seems only the shubunkins ever jumped out. One finsh in particular
must have jumped out at least 7 or 8 times, with a few of those times
I did not think he would make it, but its still doing fine.

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 02:32:45 GMT, Elaine T
wrote:


===Help! My shubunkans are jumping out of my barrel pond. I knew
I'd lost ===a shubunkan over vacation but figured it was ammonia or
something. ===There was no way to find a corpse in the green water
so I didn't know ===what happened. I bought three more and put
them in the pond on Friday. === All 3 were alive and accounted for
Sunday. Today, I could only find ===two. I finally looked on the
ground, and there were two dead jumpers.
===
===Do shubunkans commonly jump? Do I need netting over the barrel
with ===them? If so, how do I handle the marginals and water
lettuce which are ===sticking up out of the barrel? Please help!
I don't want to find any ===more dead fish on the ground.
===
===Also, while I'm on the subject of shubunkans, one fish is
constantly ===chasing the other. I can't figure out whether it's
aggression or mating ===behavior. Will this stress out the chasee,
and would a third fish help? === (Assuming I can keep it in the
barrel and off the concrete.)
===
===Thanks for any advice.




==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!


I was thinking of a barrier like that. I'll try that first, and if that
fails, I'll separate the fish so they're one to a barrel.

Thanks, Roy and George

Well, the fish separated themselves. I came out this morning and the
smaller fish had squeezed herself through the grate on the spillway and
was in the bottom barrel. Guess I'll leave them that way. I've read
that goldies like company, but I guess these two won't be social until
after springtime is over.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Does anyone else think that 2 koi and 8 goldfish in 2 half barrels is a lot
of fish per volume? I would think they are jumping out because they don't
have enough territory and are chasing one another. The only thing I have
been able to keep safely in my vase water garden which is about the same
size as a half barrel liner are rosie reds.


wrote in message m...
Elaine T wrote:
~Roy~ wrote:

Last year I kept having problems with shubunkins jumping out of the
wifes half barrel feature. Water parameters were just fine. I
eventually got tired of finding the fish out of water (seem this one
shubunkin kept pressing his luck with the thought I would always find
it in due time before it was too late) so I put up a small barrier
made out of 1/2" sq plastic mesh. Sort of like a fish fence. It kept
the shubunkins in and eventually I removed it and they stayed put
until I removed them to the larger pond late last year. This year so
far we have two small koi and about 8 or so small feeder type GF in
the two half barrels and none have made any attempts at jumping out.
It seems only the shubunkins ever jumped out. One finsh in particular
must have jumped out at least 7 or 8 times, with a few of those times
I did not think he would make it, but its still doing fine.

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 02:32:45 GMT, Elaine T
wrote:


===Help! My shubunkans are jumping out of my barrel pond. I knew
I'd lost ===a shubunkan over vacation but figured it was ammonia or
something. ===There was no way to find a corpse in the green water so
I didn't know ===what happened. I bought three more and put them in
the pond on Friday. === All 3 were alive and accounted for Sunday.
Today, I could only find ===two. I finally looked on the ground, and
there were two dead jumpers.
===
===Do shubunkans commonly jump? Do I need netting over the barrel
with ===them? If so, how do I handle the marginals and water lettuce
which are ===sticking up out of the barrel? Please help! I don't
want to find any ===more dead fish on the ground.
===
===Also, while I'm on the subject of shubunkans, one fish is
constantly ===chasing the other. I can't figure out whether it's
aggression or mating ===behavior. Will this stress out the chasee,
and would a third fish help? === (Assuming I can keep it in the
barrel and off the concrete.)
===
===Thanks for any advice.




==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!


I was thinking of a barrier like that. I'll try that first, and if that
fails, I'll separate the fish so they're one to a barrel.

Thanks, Roy and George

Well, the fish separated themselves. I came out this morning and the
smaller fish had squeezed herself through the grate on the spillway and
was in the bottom barrel. Guess I'll leave them that way. I've read that
goldies like company, but I guess these two won't be social until after
springtime is over.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

DKat wrote:
Does anyone else think that 2 koi and 8 goldfish in 2 half barrels is a lot
of fish per volume? I would think they are jumping out because they don't
have enough territory and are chasing one another. The only thing I have
been able to keep safely in my vase water garden which is about the same
size as a half barrel liner are rosie reds.


Where in the world did you get that idea??? I have 2 gambusia, 4 white
clouds, and 2 shubunkans in THREE half barrels connected by spillways
and well filtered.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

"Elaine T" wrote in message
...
DKat wrote:
Does anyone else think that 2 koi and 8 goldfish in 2 half barrels is a
lot of fish per volume? I would think they are jumping out because they
don't have enough territory and are chasing one another. The only thing
I have been able to keep safely in my vase water garden which is about
the same size as a half barrel liner are rosie reds.


Where in the world did you get that idea??? I have 2 gambusia, 4 white
clouds, and 2 shubunkans in THREE half barrels connected by spillways and
well filtered.
__ Elaine T __

So you have six fish in 3 barrels - 2 fish per barrel vs 5 per barrel with 2
of them being Koi....... stikes me as a tad different.