Too many fish?

Hi group.

I'm very new to keeping fish and I'd like to check something out that has
been said to me about the number of fish I have in my tank. The tank is 24"
x 15" x 12"

I bought the tank off a guy just short of 3 months ago. The fish that came
with it were 2 black moors, a fantail goldfish, a golden orf, a black widow
and a male fighting fish. Since then I have added...

5 zebra danio's
3 mountain minnows
1 albino red tail shark
2 guppies
2 platys

I have been told that there is way too many fish in a tank that size and it
will stress the fish out. Is this a fair comment? All the fish get along
fine. One of the guppies picks on the smaller guppy, and he hides a lot and
the danio's are always chasing each other around. Other than that it seems
a peaceful tank. They all leave each other alone and seem happy enough.

I really wanted to add a shoal of 10 neon tetras to it but now i'm not too
sure what to do.

Obviously if the tank *is* over-crowded then i'll give the neon's a miss.

Saying that, I saw an advert for a same sized tank for sale that had 47 fish
in it. Didn't say what fish they were tho'.

I'd appreciate any advice

"Jay Kaner" wrote in message
...
Hi group.

I'm very new to keeping fish and I'd like to check something out that has
been said to me about the number of fish I have in my tank. The tank is
24" x 15" x 12"

I bought the tank off a guy just short of 3 months ago. The fish that
came with it were 2 black moors, a fantail goldfish, a golden orf, a black
widow and a male fighting fish. Since then I have added...
===================
The goldfish alone need 30g (about 10g per goldfish until mature, then at
least 15g each) of water as they grow large in time and are a dirty fish,
meaning they eat a lot and pass a lot of waste when well cared for.
--
Koi-Lo.... the ReelMcKoi
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
of fish you want. While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
conditions.

It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.

More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.

You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
water, who are more prone to disease.


At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
your hard-alkaline dominant situation).

I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
in with them, though. Get another aquarium if you are serious about
keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.

"MangroveJack" wrote in message
ups.com...
Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
of fish you want. While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
conditions.

It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.

More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.

You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
water, who are more prone to disease.


At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
your hard-alkaline dominant situation).

I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
in with them, though. Get another aquarium if you are serious about
keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.


how many gallons is that?
NIk

Bottom posted.
"Nikki" wrote in message
...

"MangroveJack" wrote in message
ups.com...
Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
of fish you want. While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
conditions.

It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.

More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.

You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
water, who are more prone to disease.


At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
your hard-alkaline dominant situation).

I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
in with them, though. Get another aquarium if you are serious about
keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.


how many gallons is that?
NIk



Approximately 18 usa gallons, I have calculated it from a formula in an old
aquarium book (height times by width times by length divided by 231).
Hopefully the original poster changes 20 percent (or more) of his aquarium
water per day if he really is keeping that many fish in such a relatively
small aquarium if he wants long term success with it. Good luck and later!

Jay Kaner wrote:
Hi group.

I'm very new to keeping fish and I'd like to check something out that has
been said to me about the number of fish I have in my tank. The tank is 24"
x 15" x 12"

I bought the tank off a guy just short of 3 months ago. The fish that came
with it were 2 black moors, a fantail goldfish, a golden orf, a black widow
and a male fighting fish. Since then I have added...

5 zebra danio's
3 mountain minnows
1 albino red tail shark
2 guppies
2 platys

I have been told that there is way too many fish in a tank that size and it
will stress the fish out. Is this a fair comment? All the fish get along
fine. One of the guppies picks on the smaller guppy, and he hides a lot and
the danio's are always chasing each other around. Other than that it seems
a peaceful tank. They all leave each other alone and seem happy enough.

I really wanted to add a shoal of 10 neon tetras to it but now i'm not too
sure what to do.

Obviously if the tank *is* over-crowded then i'll give the neon's a miss.

Saying that, I saw an advert for a same sized tank for sale that had 47 fish
in it. Didn't say what fish they were tho'.

I'd appreciate any advice

I hope you're mistaken about the ID of that golden orfe. Golden orfe
(Leuciscus idus ) will usually grow to about 16" and should be kept in a
large pond. As your orfe grows, it will find fish like white clouds and
neons to be tasty snacks. You might want to find the poor fellow a pond
home before he gets too big.

As Koi-Lo pointed out, a 20 gallon tank (yours is a size often called a
20 high) is a decent home to TWO grown goldfish. Definitely give the
neons a miss. Also keep an eye on the red-tailed shark. They often
become fairly aggressive when they mature.

As the goldfish and orfe grow, your tank will reach a state where the
fish are completely dependent on airstones and the filter for adequate
oxygenation (if you're not already there). Overstocked tanks can lose a
lot of fish in power failures because the surface area of the water
can't exchange enough oxygen.

As for the 20 gallon tank with 47 fish, either they were tiny or pretty
overcrowded. You could probably have a pretty neat tank with 47 neons
if you kept up on the water changes.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

MangroveJack wrote:

I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
in with them, though. Get another aquarium if you are serious about
keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.

How'd you do that? It must have been a spectacular tank with that many
neons - I've always wanted a tank full of neons or cardinals. If you
don't mind my asking, how long did you run that setup?

I wouldn't have though to try more than 50 or so neons in a 20 gallon
tank, although I think I had about 40 guppies in my planted 10 gallon
for a while. I was changing 50% of the water twice a week to keep them
healthy and growing.

BTW, I didn't realize you were posting from Google. To quote someone's
post and reply, click on the "show options" link at the top of the post.
Then click the new "Reply" link that appears at the top of the post.
The quoted content is there, prefaced with "".

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

"Daniel Morrow" wrote in message
...
Bottom posted.
"Nikki" wrote in message
...

"MangroveJack" wrote in message
ups.com...
Maaate... you got to consider the types of fish you have and the types
of fish you want. While it's fair to say that most fish adapt to
another's ideal conditions if the environment is kept constant, the
optimum way to keep different species is according to their most ideal
conditions.

It is really quite silly even considering adding "warm-water,
soft-acidic" fish (neon tetras, red-tail sharks etc) to "cold-water,
hard-alkaline" fish (golfish, live-bearers etc)environments.

More fish basically means more maintainance. You might get away with
doing third water change every month with just a couple of guppies, but
with a small, highly-stocked aquarium, you'd be mad not to do a third
water change every week, with alternative gravel-syphons one week and
filter-cleanse in removed aquarium water the other week.

You'd probably also need to add some sort of buffer to the water to
keep the Ph constant. I always use "marine grit" which helps keep the
alkalinity high which is how the tap-water is to begin with, and always
add a bit of salt to keep the water hardened for the live-bearers and
goldfish and prevent fungals on the fish who prefer softer, more acidic
water, who are more prone to disease.


At the end of the day, it's not really the size of the aquarium which
matters, so long as the inhabitants all get along reasonably well, or
have so many opponents they have no choice but to get along. What's
most important is the AMOUNT OF WATER they are in over what period of
time. Changing ten percent every day would be highly ideal, or even
better, a constant trickle-flow replacement like in a natural stream
would be best.... anything which keeps everything CONSTANT, not
fluctuating from extremely acidic one day, to alkaline the next, to
over-saturated with wastes and uneaten food another. Minimal feeding,
regular water-change, and you should be able to fit in an extra 10
neon-sized fish (though personally I'd go for something more suited to
your hard-alkaline dominant situation).

I've kept several hundred neon tetras very succesfully in an aquarium
that size before, along with a male betta and a few corys and
bristleys. I would never have thought to put any oxygen-hungry goldfish
in with them, though. Get another aquarium if you are serious about
keeping warm-water soft-acidic type fish.


how many gallons is that?
NIk



Approximately 18 usa gallons, I have calculated it from a formula in an
old
aquarium book (height times by width times by length divided by 231).
Hopefully the original poster changes 20 percent (or more) of his aquarium
water per day if he really is keeping that many fish in such a relatively
small aquarium if he wants long term success with it. Good luck and later!


18 gl?? If that is correct he needs to go get another tank, even with water
changes that is to many fish and not only that to many different types that
dont like the same conditions, i would start by getting the betta out in his
own tank or in a tank with fish that like the same conditions, and getting
another set up for the goldfish.
nik

"Jay Kaner" wrote

I'd appreciate any advice

Which you've all given, and a big thank you to you all for that.

After reading all the replies it seems the tank is a bit over crowded. Tho'
with regular water changes, as per the advice, it shouldn't be too bad.

I bought this tank to see how I would enjoy keeping fish, which I do. I
have room for a 4 foot tank and thought if I enjoy having the fish then I
would upgrade to a 4 foot tank and sell the smaller one.

But from what i can gather it's not the best idea to have the coldwater fish
with the tropical ones ( the fella I bought it off said that wasn't a
problem keeping them together. He said you couldn't keep tropical fish in a
cold water set up but you could keep cold water fish in a tropical set up)

So what I am thinking now is to get a 4foot tank and put the tropical fish
in there and keep the smaller tank as a cold water one for the cold water
fish. I *have* to keep them because my daughter loves the fantail and the
black moors (because the black moors look like E.T!! they're E.T 1 and E.T
2)

All the fish I've added are tropical, I know that for sure. And out of the
ones that came with the tank, the fighting fish is too.
The fantail, the orfe (that's what the guy i bought it off said it was
called) and the black moors are cold water (please let me know if I am wrong
with this) It's just the black widow i'm not sure which tank to put him/her
in.

With a bit of luck I should be getting the bigger tank soon. I'm keeping my
eyes open for one in the local classified ads and ebay for when the right
price/distance to pick up comes along.

I think under the circumstances this is about the best way for getting the
best balance. Separate tanks for cold and tropical. I won't get the neon's
till then.

Thanks again to all who replied. Very helpful...even if some of it went
whoosh!!!! Like i said, I am new to this. But I'm finding it enjoyable so
I will learn as I go along.

One other question I meant to ask in that last post. When doing the water
changes and gravel cleaning is it best to remove the fish? That's what I've
been doing so far, but could this be done with the fish still in the tank?