behavioral question...

We have a juvinille malawi cichlid born in our tank (species unknown)
exhibiting some strange behavior. S/he stopped eating several days
ago, has what appears to be a swollen jaw, and is now beginning to
look emaciated. Otherwise, its behavior appears normal. I realize it
may be difficult to offer advice without knowing the species, but has
anyone seen similar behavior? Any advice?

Thanks,
K

U¿ytkownik wrote:
We have a juvinille malawi cichlid born in our tank (species unknown)
exhibiting some strange behavior.

How long (cm) is the fish? How old?

-- !
milc

On Feb 23, 12:03 am, "Wojciech Milc / The Power Of Dreams"
wrote:
U¿ytkownik wrote:
We have a juvinille malawi cichlid born in our tank (species unknown)
exhibiting some strange behavior.

How long (cm) is the fish? How old?

-- !
milc


S/He is between 6-7 cm and is about 9 months old. The age is an
approximation, for we were not even aware that there had been any
reproduction going on in our tank until we saw "Pee-Wee" as a
juvinille of ~ 1-2 cm. What do you think?

thanks!
k

Hi..

anyone seen similar behavior? Any advice?

"Looks" respectively sounds like a mouthbreeding _she_ ..!

--
cu
Marco
BTW: TFA "The Freshwater Aquarium" exist..

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 23, 12:03 am, "Wojciech Milc / The Power Of Dreams"
wrote:
U¿ytkownik wrote:
We have a juvinille malawi cichlid born in our tank (species unknown)
exhibiting some strange behavior.

How long (cm) is the fish? How old?

-- !
milc


S/He is between 6-7 cm and is about 9 months old. The age is an
approximation, for we were not even aware that there had been any
reproduction going on in our tank until we saw "Pee-Wee" as a
juvinille of ~ 1-2 cm. What do you think?

thanks!
k

Your fish has a mouthful of eggs
I normally wait 2 weeks and 'strip' them
research 'fry saver' and 'milking' malawi cichlids
now if you don't have 2 of the same species the babys will be hybrids
not as bad as you may read, just gotta warn anyone ya pass fry onto
If she is getting skinny I would definitely strip her and raise the fry
seperate (floating frysaver)
that way she can start eating again
One of your fish should be extra pretty and dominant
Malawi cichlids go on a bit of a power trip when they finally get lucky!

Swarvegorilla

U¿ytkownik wrote:
On Feb 23, 12:03 am, "Wojciech Milc / The Power Of Dreams"
wrote:
U¿ytkownik wrote:
We have a juvinille malawi cichlid born in our tank (species
unknown)
exhibiting some strange behavior.

How long (cm) is the fish? How old?

S/He is between 6-7 cm and is about 9 months old. The age is an
approximation, for we were not even aware that there had been any
reproduction going on in our tank until we saw "Pee-Wee" as a
juvinille of ~ 1-2 cm. What do you think?

That's just a reason of my question about size/age :-)

You should celebrate - you have a mommy with a mouthfull of
eggs. If she is not expirienced mother, she may have some
problems with feeding during those ~2 weeks, until she
lets the fry go. But she will make it, do not worry. The
next breeds will be more noumerous and she will learn
how to eat without problems.

If this is a single fish of the given species in your tank,
you should not keep the fry - they will be "*******s", and
it is a bad habit to raise *******s. Just leave her in the
tank, and when finally she will let the fry out, the other
fish shall take care of the fry (I mean it will be consumed :-)

As to "stripping" of female and artifical raising of fry, those
methods are also very bad and should not be encouraged. Stripping
and using fry savers makes fish population weaker - because
then even the weakest specimens make it, which is unwanted.

You also should not let the ******* fry go to other people.

-- !
milc - 500L Malawi Mbuna Tank

"Wojciech Milc / The Power Of Dreams" wrote in
message ...
U¿ytkownik wrote:
On Feb 23, 12:03 am, "Wojciech Milc / The Power Of Dreams"
wrote:
U¿ytkownik wrote:
We have a juvinille malawi cichlid born in our tank (species
unknown)
exhibiting some strange behavior.

How long (cm) is the fish? How old?

S/He is between 6-7 cm and is about 9 months old. The age is an
approximation, for we were not even aware that there had been any
reproduction going on in our tank until we saw "Pee-Wee" as a
juvinille of ~ 1-2 cm. What do you think?

That's just a reason of my question about size/age :-)

You should celebrate - you have a mommy with a mouthfull of
eggs. If she is not expirienced mother, she may have some
problems with feeding during those ~2 weeks, until she
lets the fry go. But she will make it, do not worry. The
next breeds will be more noumerous and she will learn
how to eat without problems.

If this is a single fish of the given species in your tank,
you should not keep the fry - they will be "*******s", and
it is a bad habit to raise *******s. Just leave her in the
tank, and when finally she will let the fry out, the other
fish shall take care of the fry (I mean it will be consumed :-)

As to "stripping" of female and artifical raising of fry, those
methods are also very bad and should not be encouraged. Stripping
and using fry savers makes fish population weaker - because
then even the weakest specimens make it, which is unwanted.

You also should not let the ******* fry go to other people.

-- !
milc - 500L Malawi Mbuna Tank


I disagree totally
1) most mums never learn to eat enough to not lose condition, at most they
get little bits and pieces. Usually they get none. The exception is if she
is a tank all by herself
2) screw other people and there problems with hybrids. They make a good
first batch of fish to 'learn the ropes' with as they are quite a bit more
tough.
3) using fry savers as opposed to keeping the one or 2 that manage to
survive hiding under rocks etc in the main tank does not weaken the
population. That is absurd. All it means is a couple of larger males will
survive. Have bred thousands of these bloody things, around 100 different
african cichlid species and currently have a shed full of fry. Without
stripping and using fry savers there is just no way someone with only one
fish tank can breed enuf fry to make it worth bothering. It also leads to
healthier, larger females who breed more often due to regaining condition
quicker. Is a rare tank that doesn't have a few fry savers floating in it at
my place.
4) As long as the people are made aware they are being given hybrids there
is no problem. I have gotten a few of my friends into the fish scene with
batches of colour enhanced hybrid africans that would otherwise have been
merely feeder fish. Maybe this bizare irrational defence of bloodlines
mattered one day, but for most places those days are gone. The big breeders
will always have pure blood lines. They don't buy off n00b hobbyists mate!
To denie someone the chance to raise up some fry just because of your own
issues is just.... stupid. No one is restocking the lakes from even the
best hobbyists lake! I have 5 species of lake vic atm, all endangered or
worse in their home lake. They breed so often I give away their fry to
anyone who will take them and still have enuf to throw the octopus when I
run outta anything else. Once they hit the hobby, they are just fish and
fish are fish of course of course to most people. People need to relax and
have fun. Yes being sold/given a hybrid and not knowing can suck but it's
hardly the end of the world and it's hardly a reason to cull every time. Try
tell discus breeders to kill all their hybrids and see where that gets ya!
To me line breeding is far more destructive and thats coming from the Panda
Oranda's number one fan!!

I been doing this fish thing for a while now
and it still amazes me how single minded people can be.
Watching fish breed is a magical thing.

Now flame me all ya want
Heard it all before
I mean crap Iv'e bred blood parrots
do your dam worst!
I'll still be here.
:-)

Oh and ya wanna know my best selling African mate?
The rubin red peacock.
heh
never had anyone fazed over that being a hybrid before
EVER!
and it started out as a mongrel in someones tank
ya just never know

Just gotta remember
to have fun
and not make anyone elses life any harder than it has to be
at end of the day it's all that matters
Swarvegorilla

swarvegorilla wrote:

1) most mums never learn to eat enough to not lose condition, at most
they
get little bits and pieces. Usually they get none.

Are we really talking about Malawi Mbuna? They have almost no problem
with feeding while breeding, maybe a little when breeding for the
first time. They may have some problems, though, when the main tank
is too overcrowded (I mean, less than 12-15 liters per adult fish).
But in such conditions you should not expect natural behavior.

The exception is if she is a tank all by herself.

And that's the one method which is preferred by Malawi hobbyists
community
which I belong to. Small separate tanks for breeding females. But
absolutely
no stripping!

2) screw other people and there problems with hybrids. They make a
good
first batch of fish to 'learn the ropes' with as they are quite a bit
more
tough.

You should not go online with such and attitude. "Screw other people".
Huh.
As to fish "to learn the ropes" there are many such fish, which do not
belong to endangered species, so what's the point?

3) using fry savers as opposed to keeping the one or 2 that manage to
survive hiding under rocks etc in the main tank does not weaken the
population. That is absurd. All it means is a couple of larger males
will
survive.

As to only males surviving, this is deifinetely not true. And I am
not talking about using main tank to produce as much fry as
possible - I am talking about natural behavior.

Without stripping and using fry savers there is just no way someone
with only one
fish tank can breed enuf fry to make it worth bothering.

What do you mean by "worth bothering"? If "making enough money" then
we are talking different things now.

It also leads to healthier, larger females who breed more often due
to regaining condition quicker.

That's just another inconsequence. A female which has a chance to
keep the fry as long as is needed will be sure more healthy and
it's fry will be healthier. We are not talking about factory here!

Maybe this bizare irrational defence of bloodlines
mattered one day, but for most places those days are gone.

Sad but true. Especially in States. They also have many more
of very interesting (huh) methods, such as male only overcrowded
tanks, one-bag-for-all-fish universal fish food and such.

To denie someone the chance to raise up some fry just
because of your own issues is just.... stupid.

You just don't have to strip to raise fry. Is small breeding
tank so hard to get and keep?

People need to relax and have fun.

That's just stupid. Do you mean that having fun is impossible
while you keep at least SOME rules? Turn on CNN, every day
we see something stupid, bad or outrageous just because
someone "had fun".

Try tell discus breeders to kill all their hybrids and see
where that gets ya!

Hello? We were talking african cichlids here! Hello?

I been doing this fish thing for a while now
and it still amazes me how single minded people can be.

Doing something for a long time is not equal to doing
it the right way. But I understand some people will not
agree to that. Castro for exapmle :-)

Watching fish breed is a magical thing.

You do not need stripping for that.

Now flame me all ya want
Heard it all before
I mean crap Iv'e bred blood parrots
do your dam worst!
I'll still be here.

Of course I will still try to convince you. This is
what it's all about. You're still not lost :-)

Oh and ya wanna know my best selling African mate?

So this is really about sales, is it?

milc, 500L Malawi Mbuna

Well greetz again my fine fellow....
unfortunately I continue to disagree
not about your love of da malawi cichs but just your one way mentality
so don't take this as a flame on you but rather a nit pick on your methods
So let me continue.....

"Wojciech Milc / The Power Of Dreams" wrote in
message ...
swarvegorilla wrote:

1) most mums never learn to eat enough to not lose condition, at most
they
get little bits and pieces. Usually they get none.

Are we really talking about Malawi Mbuna? They have almost no problem
with feeding while breeding, maybe a little when breeding for the
first time. They may have some problems, though, when the main tank
is too overcrowded (I mean, less than 12-15 liters per adult fish).
But in such conditions you should not expect natural behavior.


At most they will peck a few specks
but I know of no species that can feed with a mouthful of eggs.




The exception is if she is a tank all by herself.

And that's the one method which is preferred by Malawi hobbyists
community
which I belong to. Small separate tanks for breeding females. But
absolutely
no stripping!


by doing this not only do you need tanks matured ahead of time
but you need more tanks
yes it is one method but it's hardly preferred by the whole community
that is just such a blatantly stupid ignorant thing to say
You cannot speak for a whole community.
Especially not one of which I am a part
and I say strip and milk away if ya like
plenty more like me


2) screw other people and there problems with hybrids. They make a
good
first batch of fish to 'learn the ropes' with as they are quite a bit
more
tough.

You should not go online with such and attitude. "Screw other people".
Huh.
As to fish "to learn the ropes" there are many such fish, which do not
belong to endangered species, so what's the point?

the point is this person has fry NOW.
they don't need to go buy another practise group
and who said the species was endagered?
I think its fine to say scew other people when they come down on people new
to the scene with such absolutes
I mean christ what are you a sith lord?
Don't push your ignorant one way attitude on people and expect everyone to
sit back and nod away



3) using fry savers as opposed to keeping the one or 2 that manage to
survive hiding under rocks etc in the main tank does not weaken the
population. That is absurd. All it means is a couple of larger males
will
survive.

As to only males surviving, this is deifinetely not true. And I am
not talking about using main tank to produce as much fry as
possible - I am talking about natural behavior.


so catching out the female (where for a new mum she will prob spit eggs in
the net) and moving her to a new tank is natural.?
If you are going for numbers ya milk at 2 days and incubate
I am talking about a decent batch, I expect people on the first batch to
take cassaultys.
milking at 2 weeks or so generally gives a decent amount.
If I'm gonna have to setup a new tank for fry I wanna do it for a reasonable
amount.
As to natural behaviour..... unless they are F1 your kinda kidding
yourself.
I had feral mbuna in a pond once and that was interesting
but as far as being in a tank..... they are tame mate.
Fry savers allow the average hobbyist to have breeding going on at virtually
no extra cost
hey when they are not in use they can be used to seperate injured fish or
even grow an island of duckweed out of reach of the fish

1) get an icecream container
2) cut windows on it
3) superglue new green scotchbrite scourer pads over the windows
4) superglue styrofoam chunks around top outside edge of icecream container
to let it float.

take 2 seconds and you now have a place to feed powdered flake and pellets
to your new batch of fry.
how anyone could discount this method is amazing.
It may not be the concrete tanks of the big guys but it certainly allows the
hobbyist to have a bit of breeding fun in their display tanks.
Now grow out tanks are another story, but it defies logic not to let
hobbyists in on the ease of da frysaver


Without stripping and using fry savers there is just no way someone
with only one
fish tank can breed enuf fry to make it worth bothering.

What do you mean by "worth bothering"? If "making enough money" then
we are talking different things now.

No one but the big boys make money breeding fish
and they get rich on goldys and guppys
It takes no small amount of effort to raise a batch of african fry
the effort is the same for 1 fish as it is for 100
so why not aim for the higher ground?
your attempt at a moral highground by raising less is.... ?? I don't know
what it is.
Are you feeling OK?




It also leads to healthier, larger females who breed more often due
to regaining condition quicker.

That's just another inconsequence. A female which has a chance to
keep the fry as long as is needed will be sure more healthy and
it's fry will be healthier. We are not talking about factory here!


That is just silly
many malawi mothers will hold until dangerously thin
it can then be a long road to build them back up too breed again
worse she can be killed if you need to add back into the display in a
weakened state.
This is what I mean about your attitude,
there is no one magical way.
Many cases will be different and sometimes fry numbers are very important.
Sometimes the females survival is more important than potential fry
fry don't need to be in the mothers mouth, just like guppys there is no
umbilical cord connection to the mum
they gain protection and thats about it
While this is nessesary in nature and the mum taking a hit for the team is
ok
in a tank it's not needed.
granted it can be cool to sneak up on a nursery tank and try see the bubs
out of mums mouth
but that can be achieved by throwing the mum in a frysaver.
The fry being healthier is also complete bull
if I milk at 2 weeks and feed spirulina flake and baby brine shrimp
those fry will have a higher survival rate, be larger and healthier than
those that are held by a clucky mum for a month.



Maybe this bizare irrational defence of bloodlines
mattered one day, but for most places those days are gone.

Sad but true. Especially in States. They also have many more
of very interesting (huh) methods, such as male only overcrowded
tanks, one-bag-for-all-fish universal fish food and such.


oh brother.....
you are a lost soul.
the bloodlines are secure ok.
for all the commercially viable africans
maybe in some areas theres the odd hybrid
but you can get whatever ya want if you look.
These fish are stupidly popular and with so many devoted peeps behind them
will always be available
All male display tanks are also suitable to most customers after a psuedo
marine tank
infact most people getting into africans start with all male so don't talk
it down
can lead to a very problem free tank it can
as to 1 bag for all fish fish foods
I love them
spectrum you rock my world
and spirulina flake is a food of the gods
christ even earthworms can raise a fish from egg to plate size no prob.
maybe try looking at this hobby from a view outside of your little box.
most popular hobby in the world and the reason is the amount of
customisation available
your tank, your choices.
do the best by your fish and that don't mean pushing your methods like a
religeon.

To denie someone the chance to raise up some fry just
because of your own issues is just.... stupid.

You just don't have to strip to raise fry. Is small breeding
tank so hard to get and keep?

Actually I was refering to your all '******* fish must die' attitude
but yes for many people another tank is not an option
and also not practical
myself I have a shed of tanks as I said before
always looking for a way to squeeze another system in
but for most people
1 is enough
MTS sounds like a mental problem for a reason you know.



People need to relax and have fun.

That's just stupid. Do you mean that having fun is impossible
while you keep at least SOME rules? Turn on CNN, every day
we see something stupid, bad or outrageous just because
someone "had fun".

Oh great, that explains it all.
suckled by CNN as a child.
Let me quote from a book for you
It's called 'Illusions, The adventures of a reluctant Messiah'
By a guy called Richard Bach... some may know his well known work
'Jonathan Livingston Seagull'
anyway to me it read almost like a hippy matrix
a small book, but quite out there
Anyway the passage I wanted to share is

"The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and
tragedy.
What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls a
butterfly"

I don't expect you to understand this, no do I ask you to agree with me.
But if I could stand up and scream it at your whole country
I would.
Rules are there for a reason. Work out the reason and you can accomplish the
same end without following them.




Try tell discus breeders to kill all their hybrids and see
where that gets ya!

Hello? We were talking african cichlids here! Hello?


Discus are cichlids.
why not be outraged that people keep hybrids of them?
Because everyone else isn't already doing it?
Why polarize yourself into communitys like that.
A fish is a fish.


I been doing this fish thing for a while now
and it still amazes me how single minded people can be.

Doing something for a long time is not equal to doing
it the right way. But I understand some people will not
agree to that. Castro for exapmle :-)

Ah yes but when you have done it with the passion I have
faced you hobbyists in the trenches of the lfs for a few years
after being one myself for many
having been a breeder and worked for breeders
I chat with the wholesalers for for ****s and giggles
and moderate forums
or just contribute to them like I do here.
I ain't big noting myself
hell I hate it when people pull the 'I been doing it for X years' crap too
but look at the context!!
I am poking fun at the single mindedness of fishkeepers.
I have learnt to keep fish so many times over now I understand everything we
do today
will seem barbaric and cruel in 20 years.
that is life in the fish world.
So hey I diversify! At least one method has to be right surely


Watching fish breed is a magical thing.

You do not need stripping for that.

Now flame me all ya want
Heard it all before
I mean crap Iv'e bred blood parrots
do your dam worst!
I'll still be here.

Of course I will still try to convince you. This is
what it's all about. You're still not lost :-)

Perhaps you could come hold my catfish while I give them their ovaprim
shots?
I don't change what works for me unless I find something better.
have seen the behaviour of mums and bubs with the Malawi's
pretty fish but not that interesting behaviourwise compared to many other
cichlids
infact not even half as cool as watching a convict pair with their fry
well to me anyway
the tangs are a bit more exciting


Oh and ya wanna know my best selling African mate?

So this is really about sales, is it?

Yea whatever
I sell fish to buy spirulina flake
thats it pretty much
used to do for a fulltime job
now I do it becuase I love feeding the spirulina but hate buying.
I still breed a lot of africans, mainly because they won't stop
but my focus has changed a lot.
at the moment I am focusing on jellyfish
they fascinate me
espec the combs with their running lights


Katurk..... I hope you got something from those posts
people get a bit emotional over these issues
and I reccomend throwing the terms stripping, milking, frysaver
into google and making up your own mind
Malawi people can be quite full on
I also didn't mean to highjack your thread there
good luck with the gobful!
Don't be worried if the new mum spits or swallows either
only the pro's know how to gargle.

Swarvegorilla



PEACE FOREVER

swarvegorilla wrote:
unfortunately I continue to disagree
not about your love of da malawi cichs but just your one way mentality
so don't take this as a flame on you but rather a nit pick on your
methods

OK, disagreement brings progress. It is natural to hold on to your
own opinions, especially based on your own expirience, so no problem
here.

1) most mums never learn to eat enough to not lose condition, at
most
they get little bits and pieces. Usually they get none.

Are we really talking about Malawi Mbuna? They have almost no problem
with feeding while breeding, maybe a little when breeding for the
first time. They may have some problems, though, when the main tank
is too overcrowded (I mean, less than 12-15 liters per adult fish).
But in such conditions you should not expect natural behavior.

At most they will peck a few specks
but I know of no species that can feed with a mouthful of eggs.

All of my Mbuna does that easily. I see it almost daily.
This is of course nothing comparing to agressive feeding
when not having eggs, but they surely feed enough.

The exception is if she is a tank all by herself.

And that's the one method which is preferred by Malawi hobbyists
community which I belong to. Small separate tanks for breeding
females. But
absolutely
no stripping!

by doing this not only do you need tanks matured ahead of time
but you need more tanks

More - yes. Matured - no. I just use water and filter media from
the main tank.

yes it is one method but it's hardly preferred by the whole community
that is just such a blatantly stupid ignorant thing to say
You cannot speak for a whole community.

I wrote "community which I belong to", meaning polish hobbyists and
breeders of malawi cichlids.

Especially not one of which I am a part
and I say strip and milk away if ya like
plenty more like me

Yeah, there are also plenty more who keep malawi and/or
taniganika cichlids with Pterophyllum scalare-s or Astronotus
ocellatus-es (believe me, I've seen it) in soft SA water.

Also, plenty people buy Haplochromis obliquidens as a Malawi
cichlid. So? What you say is: "Let's eat **** - those
thousands of flies cannot be possibly wrong!"

the point is this person has fry NOW.

So this thread does not really apply to him anymore.
This is about breeding in general now.

and who said the species was endagered?

Those of mine a

Labeotropheus fuelleborni:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/de...php/60937/summ

Maylandia estherae:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/de...php/61140/summ

Pseudotropheus flavus:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/de...php/61165/summ

Iodotropheus sprengerae:

http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/de...php/60944/summ

I mean christ what are you a sith lord?
Don't push your ignorant one way attitude on people and expect
everyone to
sit back and nod away

I did not expect to, neither shloud you. Those are just
different ways - I do not expect to pick the absolute best during
this discussion.

3) using fry savers as opposed to keeping the one or 2 that manage
to
survive hiding under rocks etc in the main tank does not weaken the
population. That is absurd. All it means is a couple of larger males
will survive.

As to only males surviving, this is deifinetely not true. And I am
not talking about using main tank to produce as much fry as
possible - I am talking about natural behavior.

so catching out the female (where for a new mum she will prob spit
eggs in
the net) and moving her to a new tank is natural.?

Yes - this is similar to the female's conduct in the lake,
i.e. hiding in less crowded and more safe places.

If you are going for numbers ya milk at 2 days and incubate

I prefer going for quality and natural habitat simulation.

As to natural behaviour..... unless they are F1 your kinda kidding
yourself.

Five of my species are F1, and one is WC.

how anyone could discount this method is amazing.

What I discount is only the stripping the female of
eggs or fry. And of course artifical incubating of eggs.

I did not say that separating fry is bad - as long as
the fry stays in the mommy's mouth as long as she
thinks it proper.

Are you feeling OK?

Perfectly so :-)

It also leads to healthier, larger females who breed more often due
to regaining condition quicker.

That's just another inconsequence. A female which has a chance to
keep the fry as long as is needed will be sure more healthy and
it's fry will be healthier. We are not talking about factory here!

That is just silly
many malawi mothers will hold until dangerously thin

Maybe you should look deeper into your methods then.
It may be something wrong with your tank in general
that prevents them keeping good health when breeding
in natural way.

worse she can be killed if you need to add back into the display in a
weakened state.

This is only true when you have no hiding places
and too few females per one male in each species.

This is what I mean about your attitude,
there is no one magical way.

Of course there is no one way. And I just think
that mine is BETTER, not the ONLY ONE :-)

Sometimes the females survival is more important than potential fry

Always, not sometimes!

granted it can be cool to sneak up on a nursery tank and try see the
bubs
out of mums mouth

To see them get back in is the best expirience :-)

but that can be achieved by throwing the mum in a frysaver.

OK, that's more I like it.

The fry being healthier is also complete bull
if I milk at 2 weeks and feed spirulina flake and baby brine shrimp

Mouthbreeding time cannot be stated as "always two weeks". It
depends on so many factors. The mum just knows better, don't
you understand?

those fry will have a higher survival rate, be larger and healthier
than
those that are held by a clucky mum for a month.

Larger - maybe. Healthier - not necessary.

You have to understand that higher survival rate is not
what evolution is about. Keeping 100% survivial rate
will lead to general weakening of the given species, and
of course you know it.

infact most people getting into africans start with all male so don't
talk
it down

And you think we - as aquarists - should encourage this?

can lead to a very problem free tank it can

Yes, if you have not enough knowledge.

your tank, your choices.
do the best by your fish and that don't mean pushing your methods like
a
religeon.

Oh God, am I really so? I just reccomend what I think is
best and proper, and so do you!

To denie someone the chance to raise up some fry just
because of your own issues is just.... stupid.

You just don't have to strip to raise fry. Is small breeding
tank so hard to get and keep?

Actually I was refering to your all '******* fish must die' attitude

Well, this is the one which I am really convinced to, but
only when it comes to Malawi cichlids. ALL MALAWI *******
FISH MUST DIE! DIE! DIIIIIE! :-)

People need to relax and have fun.

That's just stupid. Do you mean that having fun is impossible
while you keep at least SOME rules? Turn on CNN, every day
we see something stupid, bad or outrageous just because
someone "had fun".

Oh great, that explains it all.
suckled by CNN as a child.

You have to remember, I had no way of seeing CNN as a child,
I was born in the Red Zone in 1972 :-)

"The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice
and
tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master
calls a
butterfly"

I don't expect you to understand this, no do I ask you to agree with
me.

In fact, I do understand. But this passage is about understanding
natural processes, and the common "point of view" philosophy.
I really don't see how this applies to our discussion.

Rules are there for a reason. Work out the reason and you can
accomplish
the same end without following them.

This is even more general, and - sadly - not always true.

Try tell discus breeders to kill all their hybrids and see
where that gets ya!

Hello? We were talking african cichlids here! Hello?

Discus are cichlids.
why not be outraged that people keep hybrids of them?
Because everyone else isn't already doing it?
Why polarize yourself into communitys like that.
A fish is a fish.

Yeah. So go plastics - you will leave so many problems
behind you :-)

Now flame me all ya want
Heard it all before
I mean crap Iv'e bred blood parrots
do your dam worst!
I'll still be here.

Of course I will still try to convince you. This is
what it's all about. You're still not lost :-)

Perhaps you could come hold my catfish while I give them their ovaprim
shots?

Believe me, I have better pleasures avaliable :-)

"Perhaps you could come hold my catfish" :-) speaking
about words out of context :-)

Katurk..... I hope you got something from those posts
people get a bit emotional over these issues

Look who's talking :-)

Malawi people can be quite full on

I don't know, never've been to Malawi myself :-)

Regards,

milc, 500L Malawi Mbuna Tank