Mystery crash

Yesterday I noticed a previously active and precocious white+yellow
Oranda was feeling punk. I measured some basic chemistry and was
astounded to see +0.5 nitrites and 80ppm nitrates, but ammonia
still zeroish. This was 6 days since my last PWC (according to
the log), and the first trouble I've had in this tank since it
first cycled up over 18 months ago.

A quick 90% PWC perked everyone up in almost no time. There was some
damage done -- the Oranda's dorsal fin shows some red streaking --
but I think the situation is under control now.
I keep a Duetto-50 cycled up and running just for such emergencies,
and moved it into the tank with the PWC. It's too small for a
slightly overloaded 20G, but it's better than nothing. (Slightly
means 3 fish, 2" max.)

The big mystery is - What happened??
I find it curious that at least some bio-filtration survived
whatever calamity struck. Note that ammonia reading was zero,
and nitrates were _way_ elevated. The nitrIte did the damage.

Some possible factors -
- as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
that was the plan. Did I have a blond-moment and forget it when
doing PWCs this month? Did chloramine kill some biobugs?
- The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs over
a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were
then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were
laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system
could handle?

Any and all theories (except those based on notions of Karma or
feng shui) are welcomed and solicited.

Gunther, who's off to visit the dentist now.

In article ,
says...
Yesterday I noticed a previously active and precocious white+yellow
Oranda was feeling punk. I measured some basic chemistry and was
astounded to see +0.5 nitrites and 80ppm nitrates, but ammonia
still zeroish. This was 6 days since my last PWC (according to
the log), and the first trouble I've had in this tank since it
first cycled up over 18 months ago.

A quick 90% PWC perked everyone up in almost no time. There was some
damage done -- the Oranda's dorsal fin shows some red streaking --
but I think the situation is under control now.
I keep a Duetto-50 cycled up and running just for such emergencies,
and moved it into the tank with the PWC. It's too small for a
slightly overloaded 20G, but it's better than nothing. (Slightly
means 3 fish, 2" max.)

The big mystery is - What happened??
I find it curious that at least some bio-filtration survived
whatever calamity struck. Note that ammonia reading was zero,
and nitrates were _way_ elevated. The nitrIte did the damage.

Some possible factors -
- as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
that was the plan. Did I have a blond-moment and forget it when
doing PWCs this month? Did chloramine kill some biobugs?
- The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs over
a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were
then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were
laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system
could handle?

Any and all theories (except those based on notions of Karma or
feng shui) are welcomed and solicited.

Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D

Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours
after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0,
nitrates 10ppm.

It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this
chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall
a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the
first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now.
That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or
(b) I'm used to it.
But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the
house doing fine?

Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your
house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade
of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance
of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every
chance I get.
Any problems there?

I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies
healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so
I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped.

BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency?
(wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.)

Gunther

Gunther,

I noticed in your relating your aquarium specifics you never mentioned pH or
KH, which either one could see a change and your problem. Is your water
soft or on the hard side?

When all is said and done it was probably the result of the egg laying that
shot up the nitrite and since you tank is overstocked slightly, these
conditions could have caused the problem. The reason that I express concern
about the KH is that this is more instrumental in the nitrite to nitrate
conversion than the conversion of ammonia to nitrite. If the KH was too low
and/or exhausted, this could have prevented more nitrite from being
converted, which resulted in the elevated nitrate, because of the additional
protein conversion because of the eggs.

In any event, just a thought.

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------------------------
"Gunther" wrote in message
Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D

Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours
after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0,
nitrates 10ppm.

It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this
chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall
a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the
first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now.
That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or
(b) I'm used to it.
But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the
house doing fine?

Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your
house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade
of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance
of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every
chance I get.
Any problems there?

I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies
healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so
I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped.

BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency?
(wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.)

Gunther

In article ,
says...
Gunther,

I noticed in your relating your aquarium specifics you never mentioned pH or
KH, which either one could see a change and your problem. Is your water
soft or on the hard side?

Well, pH is the same as always, around 7.3 +/- , and I've
always thought of our water as being middle of the road.
It's not what you'd call soft, but I've lived with harder.
However, I didn't measure the pH of the nasty water --
as soon as I saw the elevated nitrite I grabbed the
python. KH I cannot measure. Need I invest in another kit?
Apparently it wouldn't hurt me to go read up on KH/GH at any rate.

I'm willing to believe the egg theory myself. As I said, once I caught
it and changed out the water, all has been fine, chemistry-wise. The
problem is I was slow to detect the problem, and the fish took a
lot of damage and/or stress. Slightly clamped and red streaked
fins on the worst (I fear she may not make it), and a young Moor
is acting weirder than usual. Luckily, the one I'm pulling for
the most seems to be holding his own for now. I'm now worried
about 2ndary problems due to compromised immune systems.

On the subject of test kits: is there any reason to suspect
Aquarium Pharm test kits are less accurate than other brands?
A local LFS guy swears they're not worth beans since they can
give outright false readings, and he prefers strips over _any_
brand of liquid test kits. I just bought AP's holy trinity
last month, and cannot justify trashing them and buying
all new tests kits. Opinions?

Finally, this same LFS guys says that despite what I read in
the local papers, Sunnyvale (where I live) water has used
chloramine for the past 15 years, so it's probably not an
issue in this case. Hmmm...

Gunther


When all is said and done it was probably the result of the egg laying that
shot up the nitrite and since you tank is overstocked slightly, these
conditions could have caused the problem. The reason that I express concern
about the KH is that this is more instrumental in the nitrite to nitrate
conversion than the conversion of ammonia to nitrite. If the KH was too low
and/or exhausted, this could have prevented more nitrite from being
converted, which resulted in the elevated nitrate, because of the additional
protein conversion because of the eggs.

In any event, just a thought.

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------------------------
"Gunther" wrote in message
Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D

Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours
after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0,
nitrates 10ppm.

It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this
chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall
a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the
first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now.
That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or
(b) I'm used to it.
But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the
house doing fine?

Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your
house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade
of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance
of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every
chance I get.
Any problems there?

I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies
healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so
I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped.

BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency?
(wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.)

Gunther

Gunther wrote:

Finally, this same LFS guys says that despite what I read in
the local papers, Sunnyvale (where I live) water has used
chloramine for the past 15 years, so it's probably not an
issue in this case.

Yah, at work I've seen chloramine signs over the past year or two
(ammonia readings after dechlor), so I tend to believe the LFS on that
count.

As for the AP being junk? I haven't had any problems. I use AP, one LFS
uses tetra and the other uses AP.

One thing to remember expectation-wise is that the test kits probably
aren't exactly accurate, meaning you are going to get some variance in
readings between the different manufactures and different chemical
tests. They should be in the same ballpark, but don't expect LFS
chemical tests to give 2 significant figure accuracy.

In most hobby applications we're really using them as relative
indicators. i.e. 0 ammonia or detectable ammonia. Twice as much
nitrate as before. etc...

For that purpose they're "just fine."

Given the above, I have a (well justified) personal belief that AP
nitrate test gives a false positive when there are nitrites in the
water. AP claims otherwise, but I find it hard to argue with my own
measurements...

-D
--
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
proof." -Galbraith's Law

In article ,
says...
....
In most hobby applications we're really using them as relative
indicators. i.e. 0 ammonia or detectable ammonia. Twice as much
nitrate as before. etc...

Agreed, and they do what I require of them.

Given the above, I have a (well justified) personal belief that AP
nitrate test gives a false positive when there are nitrites in the
water. AP claims otherwise, but I find it hard to argue with my own
measurements...

That's interesting, could well have been a factor in my case as well.
In only 6 days, my tank went from 0/0/10 to 0/0.5/80+ppm. I can
certainly believe that a huge ammonia spike would cause that pattern,
but those numbers? Frankly, I pretty much ignored the nitrate reading
at the time since I considered the nitrites danger enough, but I seem
to recall that it was actually off the chart.
As we said above, these aren't really quantitative tests so much as
trinary indicators (good/so-so/bad) but still .....


Well, as I write this, my youngest, a juvenile Moor, has succumbed to
the stress of it all and rests in the freezer awaiting burial under
the lemon bush. Fertile Myrtle (the white female oranda) looks not
much better. I still hold out hope for Paprika (nee Pepper, the
proud papa-to-be) since he's alert and active, but, as always,
time will tell the wiser.

Gunther

"Who cares what you think?" ....
George W. Bush,
Philadelphia, 2001"

Ok, just a guess, when my Nitrate gets over 50, my PH is usually crashing.
If your KH was getting low, you have nothing to support PH, then water
usually
goes acidic very fast, maybe your fish has suffered more from PH crash
than Nitrate poisoning. Sometimes my city water KH gets down to 30ppm,
normally it's around 80ppm or more. Maybe the city guys forgot to harden
the water.
....Kodiak

"Gunther" wrote in message
t...
In article ,
says...
Yesterday I noticed a previously active and precocious white+yellow
Oranda was feeling punk. I measured some basic chemistry and was
astounded to see +0.5 nitrites and 80ppm nitrates, but ammonia
still zeroish. This was 6 days since my last PWC (according to
the log), and the first trouble I've had in this tank since it
first cycled up over 18 months ago.

A quick 90% PWC perked everyone up in almost no time. There was some
damage done -- the Oranda's dorsal fin shows some red streaking --
but I think the situation is under control now.
I keep a Duetto-50 cycled up and running just for such emergencies,
and moved it into the tank with the PWC. It's too small for a
slightly overloaded 20G, but it's better than nothing. (Slightly
means 3 fish, 2" max.)

The big mystery is - What happened??
I find it curious that at least some bio-filtration survived
whatever calamity struck. Note that ammonia reading was zero,
and nitrates were _way_ elevated. The nitrIte did the damage.

Some possible factors -
- as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
that was the plan. Did I have a blond-moment and forget it when
doing PWCs this month? Did chloramine kill some biobugs?
- The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs over
a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were
then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were
laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system
could handle?

Any and all theories (except those based on notions of Karma or
feng shui) are welcomed and solicited.

Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D

Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours
after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0,
nitrates 10ppm.

It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this
chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall
a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the
first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now.
That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or
(b) I'm used to it.
But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the
house doing fine?

Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your
house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade
of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance
of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every
chance I get.
Any problems there?

I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies
healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so
I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped.

BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency?
(wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.)

Gunther

Ok, well guess what happened to me (what a coincidence)
My water has been in low KH lately, my PH crashed today.
(It's like I jinxed myself talking to you about this)
I tested 0 Ammo, 0 Nitrite and 10ppm Nitrates, but when I checked my
PH it was down around 6.0 maybe a tad under that. My Pleco instantly died.
This was only 4 days after a thorough cleaning and 30% water.

When i checked KH it was 0, I mean 0, there was none.
Now with a 50% water I'm still down at 6.5 and KH is a bit better
but still bad at 15ppm. Damn why is it still so low? Those city guys?
I took some tap water, let it sit for 12 hours and tested KH at only 25ppm.
Why is it so low all of the sudden? My tapwater KH use to be around 80ppm
Those city guys, i blame the city giys for killing Mr. Victor "the cleaner"
(Pleco).

This is bad news. I know i need calcium rock based spring, crushed
oyster shells etc but right now all i have is baking soda. Can anyone
recommend proper dosage? how many tablespoon per 5 gallon so as
not to bring it up over 0.5 per 24hour? I know this is temporary, am i
wasting time or will this at least bring temporary relief?
Anyone with experience using baking soda, please help.
....Kodiak

"Kodiak" wrote in message
. ..
Ok, just a guess, when my Nitrate gets over 50, my PH is usually crashing.
If your KH was getting low, you have nothing to support PH, then water
usually
goes acidic very fast, maybe your fish has suffered more from PH crash
than Nitrate poisoning. Sometimes my city water KH gets down to 30ppm,
normally it's around 80ppm or more. Maybe the city guys forgot to harden
the water.
...Kodiak

"Gunther" wrote in message
t...
In article ,
says...
Yesterday I noticed a previously active and precocious white+yellow
Oranda was feeling punk. I measured some basic chemistry and was
astounded to see +0.5 nitrites and 80ppm nitrates, but ammonia
still zeroish. This was 6 days since my last PWC (according to
the log), and the first trouble I've had in this tank since it
first cycled up over 18 months ago.

A quick 90% PWC perked everyone up in almost no time. There was some
damage done -- the Oranda's dorsal fin shows some red streaking --
but I think the situation is under control now.
I keep a Duetto-50 cycled up and running just for such emergencies,
and moved it into the tank with the PWC. It's too small for a
slightly overloaded 20G, but it's better than nothing. (Slightly
means 3 fish, 2" max.)

The big mystery is - What happened??
I find it curious that at least some bio-filtration survived
whatever calamity struck. Note that ammonia reading was zero,
and nitrates were _way_ elevated. The nitrIte did the damage.

Some possible factors -
- as of about 3 weeks ago, my water district switched to chloramine;
I was aware of this and switched from Novaqua to Amquel, at least
that was the plan. Did I have a blond-moment and forget it when
doing PWCs this month? Did chloramine kill some biobugs?
- The white Oranda had just recently laid a monster load of eggs
over
a 24 hour period; all but a half dozen well hidden ones were
then consumed. She went punkish about 48 hours after the egg were
laid. Did this extra "food" contribute more waste than the system
could handle?

Any and all theories (except those based on notions of Karma or
feng shui) are welcomed and solicited.

Dentist visit was fine...I even got a sugar-free sucker :-D

Water tests done this AM and again this evening (12 and 24 hours
after the emergency) read goodness: ammonia=0, nitrites=0,
nitrates 10ppm.

It is possible that the water district boys, being new to this
chloramine stuff, gave us a hot-shot (overdose) at first? I now recall
a distinct swimming-pool like odor from the tap the for the
first few days of the change-over which I don't notice now.
That could be either because (a) it's not there anymore, or
(b) I'm used to it.
But if an OD was the cause, why are the other two tanks in the
house doing fine?

Donald, how's your office tank doing? I seem to recall your
house is on well water (or rain water, or maybe a bucket-brigade
of UCSC students?), but your office is within spitting distance
of my place. I know because I spit on the Libby's can every
chance I get.
Any problems there?

I'm really concerned about this: I do my best to keep my goldies
healthy, and when something goes awry, I want to know why so
I can avoid it in the future. This one's got me stumped.

BTW: Is there such a thing as post-partum immune deficiency?
(wondering why only one fish succumbed to the nitrite poisoning.)

Gunther

Anyone with experience using baking soda, please help.

I have used it for many years. You will be better off using Equilibrium if you
have a low GH too.
Your thorough tank cleaning may have started a downturn and the low carbonates
didn't help. A higher level of KH and GH is necessary to maintain beneficial
bacterial. You can get specifics, exact levels, from Aquatic Eco System specs.

Well by thorough cleaning, i meant only
siphoned the gravel very well, nitrates very low.
I didn't clean the filter and I only changed 30% water.
How could that cause PH to crash? Am I removing
hardness when I clean off excessive Nitrate?

After a 50% PH went from 6 to 6.5.
Then after 12 hours I added 1tsp baking soda (tank is 33gal)
I am back at PH 7.5, and KH is back up to a whopping 60.
Fish seem to be very happy now, but as everyone says on
this group, baking soda is only temporary. I will keep an eye on it.
....Kodiak

"BErney1014" wrote in message
...
Anyone with experience using baking soda, please help.

I have used it for many years. You will be better off using Equilibrium if
you
have a low GH too.
Your thorough tank cleaning may have started a downturn and the low
carbonates
didn't help. A higher level of KH and GH is necessary to maintain
beneficial
bacterial. You can get specifics, exact levels, from Aquatic Eco System
specs.