Yikes! Bio crash?

Gosh, it seems like the fun never stops, eh?
This post started as a diary entry, and I decided it
might be useful to get the opinions of others here.

Last weekend, _two_ of my three tanks seemed to crash:
measurements showed ammonia in the 1.0 range, with zero
nitrites and minimal (but detectable) nitrates.
I surmise a complete bio crash. I'm searching for possible
causes, and wanted to share the observations and maybe get
a clue I'm overlooking.....
Here are my case notes thus far;

- these two tanks almost always get maintenance together,
and usually in the same order: 18g then 20g;
- by contrast, the 55g is maintained on a separate schedule,
and didn't crash;
- over that time frame ( 10-14 days ago) I was experiencing
a rash on both forearms -- probably shingles -- and was
treating the itch with various combos of Lanacane (which is
benzocaine + benzethonium Cl + a pot load of inactives),
a topical antihistamine (diphenhydramine HCl + Zinc Acetate),
and/or a topical hydrocortisone ointment.
- I tried to make sure to wash (and carefully rinse) my hands and
forearms each time, aware that I was carrying weird chemicals,
but was it effective? did I forget? Did I just happen to be
cleaner each time I did the 55g?
- same time frame: I started making my own eclipse filters for
BOTH these tanks (but not the 55) using polybat, some
blue floss, rubberbanded onto an empty eclipse filter frame;
- the purple and blue rubberbands (from vegetable bundles)
seem to stink like chemicals after being used on these
filters.... _don't_use_them_anymore_!;
- started using Amquel+ (also still have some regular Amquel
in use), but I suspect it's been in all three.

I guess what all that drivel means is there's only one factor
that's unique to those two tanks: the stinky rubberbands.
Does anyone have any info about this phenomenon?
The odor is sharp, vaguely familiar (acetone? some petroleum
byproduct?) and distinctly non-aquatic.
(I suspect there's a 50-50 chance I contaminated the tanks
with my drugged forearms, but I would suspect that would
only happen to the FIRST (18T) tank...repeatedly dipping
my arms into it should have diluted the stuff before I started
on the 2nd one, yes?)

Thanks,
Gunther

PS: jobless rate is still nasty high here in Silly Valley :-|
I'm probably moving, but have no idea how or where.....

Gunther wrote:

PS: jobless rate is still nasty high here in Silly Valley :-|
I'm probably moving, but have no idea how or where.....

India?
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

On 4/30/04 3:06 PM, in article
, "Gunther"
wrote:

(snip)
Gunther

PS: jobless rate is still nasty high here in Silly Valley :-|
I'm probably moving, but have no idea how or where.....



Well, if you head to NH, let me know!
Cheryl

1. if you think you got shingles forgodsake go and get antiviral medications it is
no fooling matter and the ointment aint gonna do it. OTOH, shingles doesnt usually
break out on arms ... usually the trunk front, side and/or back right under the
nipple level. if gotten within 72 hours or prickly good chance knocking it out with
no residual chronic pain.
2. if you are on city water there is a chance something was added that caused the
crash, second to that is soap residue, third could be the rubber bands, but since the
fish didnt die just the biofilter crashed it seems more likely it was the water. so
you didnt use anything like an antibiotic?
it most likely isnt the stuff you smeared onto your arm.
Ingrid

Gunther wrote:
- these two tanks almost always get maintenance together,
and usually in the same order: 18g then 20g;
- by contrast, the 55g is maintained on a separate schedule,
and didn't crash;


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http://puregold.aquaria.net/
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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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"Gunther" wrote in message
t...
Gosh, it seems like the fun never stops, eh?
This post started as a diary entry, and I decided it
might be useful to get the opinions of others here.

Last weekend, _two_ of my three tanks seemed to crash:
measurements showed ammonia in the 1.0 range, with zero
nitrites and minimal (but detectable) nitrates.
I surmise a complete bio crash. I'm searching for possible
causes, and wanted to share the observations and maybe get
a clue I'm overlooking.....
Here are my case notes thus far;

- these two tanks almost always get maintenance together,
and usually in the same order: 18g then 20g;
- by contrast, the 55g is maintained on a separate schedule,
and didn't crash;
- over that time frame ( 10-14 days ago) I was experiencing
a rash on both forearms -- probably shingles -- and was
treating the itch with various combos of Lanacane (which is
benzocaine + benzethonium Cl + a pot load of inactives),
a topical antihistamine (diphenhydramine HCl + Zinc Acetate),
and/or a topical hydrocortisone ointment.
- I tried to make sure to wash (and carefully rinse) my hands and
forearms each time, aware that I was carrying weird chemicals,
but was it effective? did I forget? Did I just happen to be
cleaner each time I did the 55g?
- same time frame: I started making my own eclipse filters for
BOTH these tanks (but not the 55) using polybat, some
blue floss, rubberbanded onto an empty eclipse filter frame;
- the purple and blue rubberbands (from vegetable bundles)
seem to stink like chemicals after being used on these
filters.... _don't_use_them_anymore_!;
- started using Amquel+ (also still have some regular Amquel
in use), but I suspect it's been in all three.

I guess what all that drivel means is there's only one factor
that's unique to those two tanks: the stinky rubberbands.
Does anyone have any info about this phenomenon?
The odor is sharp, vaguely familiar (acetone? some petroleum
byproduct?) and distinctly non-aquatic.
(I suspect there's a 50-50 chance I contaminated the tanks
with my drugged forearms, but I would suspect that would
only happen to the FIRST (18T) tank...repeatedly dipping
my arms into it should have diluted the stuff before I started
on the 2nd one, yes?)

Thanks,
Gunther

PS: jobless rate is still here in Silly Valley :-|
I'm probably moving, but have no idea how or where.....


Hey Gunther
FWIW we recently experienced a similar bio-crash following a (possibly
over-exuberant) cleaning (algae scrub) of our 20G gravel-less tank. I
suspect (in our case) reason for bio-bug die-off is that our biofilter is
more tentative now that tank is gravel-less & thus is more vulnerable to
mechanical (or chemical) removal of good bugs via scrubbing of glass,
filters, etc.

By that thinking: 0 substrate = less surface area = less biobugs = slower
recovery rate after any insult to biofilter. Thus in bare-bottom tanks: big
cleaning / WC / meds can affect the biobug colony in a big way.
Conjecture...not fact

Are all of your tanks gravel-less? or does your surviving 3rd, unaffected
tank per chance have more/different substrate?

Re; Amquel+:
Following our recent bio-crash & during subsequent re-cycle we used
Amquel+(plus) for the first time.
IME Amquel+ works differently (& perhaps better) than earlier products like
Amquel/Stresscoat/Etc...
It eliminates nitrite toxicity 100% (which is new, and GREAT) but with some
surprising results.

We measured high ammonia readings during the early part of the re-cycle ...
despite frequent, & large water changes.
Both single reagent Nessler & 2-reagent Salicylate AP Ammonia tests read
positive (bigtime) even after water changes, even after use of Amquel+,
although the product claims to remove harmful ammonia and claims to be true
to Salicylate Ammonia tests.
After 2 weeks ammonia finally disappeared and in 4th week nitrate finally
appeared, but never a sign of nitrite on AP test kit. Using Amquel+, zero
nitrites were measured throughout the cycle!

So Amquel+ apparently = 100% protection against harmful nitrites!!!
or else nitrites just do not read on AP test kit under Amquel+
Either way, the fish fared well through it all
In my previous experiences cycling with GF, it was the nitrites that hurt
the most, not the ammonia.
So these 2 fish strongly recommend Amquel+

~MattO

I had similar issues (not a complete crash) when i upgraded my
vacuming procedure. (I used a 3/4" garden hose and siphon water
from 2nd floor into the basement sink. You should see the suction).
Turns out I was siphoning the gravel so clean I think some of the filtering
capacity was compromised.

Now i only siphon 1/2 the gravel substrate at one time and things seem
to be alot better.
....Kodiak

"MattO" wrote in message
news:W7Kkc.3799$TD4.396343@attbi_s01...

"Gunther" wrote in message
t...
Gosh, it seems like the fun never stops, eh?
This post started as a diary entry, and I decided it
might be useful to get the opinions of others here.

Last weekend, _two_ of my three tanks seemed to crash:
measurements showed ammonia in the 1.0 range, with zero
nitrites and minimal (but detectable) nitrates.
I surmise a complete bio crash. I'm searching for possible
causes, and wanted to share the observations and maybe get
a clue I'm overlooking.....
Here are my case notes thus far;

- these two tanks almost always get maintenance together,
and usually in the same order: 18g then 20g;
- by contrast, the 55g is maintained on a separate schedule,
and didn't crash;
- over that time frame ( 10-14 days ago) I was experiencing
a rash on both forearms -- probably shingles -- and was
treating the itch with various combos of Lanacane (which is
benzocaine + benzethonium Cl + a pot load of inactives),
a topical antihistamine (diphenhydramine HCl + Zinc Acetate),
and/or a topical hydrocortisone ointment.
- I tried to make sure to wash (and carefully rinse) my hands and
forearms each time, aware that I was carrying weird chemicals,
but was it effective? did I forget? Did I just happen to be
cleaner each time I did the 55g?
- same time frame: I started making my own eclipse filters for
BOTH these tanks (but not the 55) using polybat, some
blue floss, rubberbanded onto an empty eclipse filter frame;
- the purple and blue rubberbands (from vegetable bundles)
seem to stink like chemicals after being used on these
filters.... _don't_use_them_anymore_!;
- started using Amquel+ (also still have some regular Amquel
in use), but I suspect it's been in all three.

I guess what all that drivel means is there's only one factor
that's unique to those two tanks: the stinky rubberbands.
Does anyone have any info about this phenomenon?
The odor is sharp, vaguely familiar (acetone? some petroleum
byproduct?) and distinctly non-aquatic.
(I suspect there's a 50-50 chance I contaminated the tanks
with my drugged forearms, but I would suspect that would
only happen to the FIRST (18T) tank...repeatedly dipping
my arms into it should have diluted the stuff before I started
on the 2nd one, yes?)

Thanks,
Gunther

PS: jobless rate is still here in Silly Valley :-|
I'm probably moving, but have no idea how or where.....


Hey Gunther
FWIW we recently experienced a similar bio-crash following a (possibly
over-exuberant) cleaning (algae scrub) of our 20G gravel-less tank. I
suspect (in our case) reason for bio-bug die-off is that our biofilter is
more tentative now that tank is gravel-less & thus is more vulnerable to
mechanical (or chemical) removal of good bugs via scrubbing of glass,
filters, etc.

By that thinking: 0 substrate = less surface area = less biobugs = slower
recovery rate after any insult to biofilter. Thus in bare-bottom tanks:
big
cleaning / WC / meds can affect the biobug colony in a big way.
Conjecture...not fact

Are all of your tanks gravel-less? or does your surviving 3rd, unaffected
tank per chance have more/different substrate?

Re; Amquel+:
Following our recent bio-crash & during subsequent re-cycle we used
Amquel+(plus) for the first time.
IME Amquel+ works differently (& perhaps better) than earlier products
like
Amquel/Stresscoat/Etc...
It eliminates nitrite toxicity 100% (which is new, and GREAT) but with
some
surprising results.

We measured high ammonia readings during the early part of the re-cycle
....
despite frequent, & large water changes.
Both single reagent Nessler & 2-reagent Salicylate AP Ammonia tests read
positive (bigtime) even after water changes, even after use of Amquel+,
although the product claims to remove harmful ammonia and claims to be
true
to Salicylate Ammonia tests.
After 2 weeks ammonia finally disappeared and in 4th week nitrate finally
appeared, but never a sign of nitrite on AP test kit. Using Amquel+, zero
nitrites were measured throughout the cycle!

So Amquel+ apparently = 100% protection against harmful nitrites!!!
or else nitrites just do not read on AP test kit under Amquel+
Either way, the fish fared well through it all
In my previous experiences cycling with GF, it was the nitrites that hurt
the most, not the ammonia.
So these 2 fish strongly recommend Amquel+

~MattO