aeration

I have a small 200 gph pump (very low power usage) submerged in my pond for
additional aeration - just as added 'insurance'. The output is below the
water so the water is just 'bubbling' like a natural spring might. I do not
want it splashing for several reasons. I have been told it is the breaking
of the surface which helps to oxidize the water.
Questions: 1) Is this actually doing me some good. 2)Aesthetics aside would
an airstone attached be significantly better.
Thanxx
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas

Bill,

If you are worried about "aesthetics" and airstone
pumping air into your water from the bottom of your
pond would probably be a better idea, especially as the
summer is coming on and higher pond temps, especially
in Austin, Texas. The airstone in the depths of your
pond would allow a lot more "air" to come in contact
with the water than just moving it up and and across
the surface using the pump.

Tom L.L.
----------------------------------------------

Newbie Bill wrote:
I have a small 200 gph pump (very low power usage) submerged in my pond for
additional aeration - just as added 'insurance'. The output is below the
water so the water is just 'bubbling' like a natural spring might. I do not
want it splashing for several reasons. I have been told it is the breaking
of the surface which helps to oxidize the water.
Questions: 1) Is this actually doing me some good. 2)Aesthetics aside would
an airstone attached be significantly better.
Thanxx
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas

"Tom L. La Bron" wrote in message
...
Bill,

If you are worried about "aesthetics" and airstone pumping air into your water
from the bottom of your pond would probably be a better idea, especially as
the summer is coming on and higher pond temps, especially in Austin, Texas.
The airstone in the depths of your pond would allow a lot more "air" to come
in contact with the water than just moving it up and and across the surface
using the pump.

Tom L.L.
----------------------------------------------

Newbie Bill wrote:
I have a small 200 gph pump (very low power usage) submerged in my pond for
additional aeration - just as added 'insurance'. The output is below the
water so the water is just 'bubbling' like a natural spring might. I do not
want it splashing for several reasons. I have been told it is the breaking
of the surface which helps to oxidize the water.
Questions: 1) Is this actually doing me some good. 2)Aesthetics aside would
an airstone attached be significantly better.
Thanxx
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas


Actually, the air water interface is at least as important, if not more
important. The larger the surface area of the air/water interface, the greater
the exchange of gases. While an airstone can pump air through the water, it
does so in a limited way, since it is only making contact with a small area of
water at a time and only influences the immediate area around the airstone. By
inducing a current across the surface of the water with a pump located at the
bottom of the pond, you will induce more gas exchange because of the greater
surface area involved. It also helps in preventing zonation from froming in the
water column, since you are pumping the water from the bottom and streaming it
across the surface, which in turn, allows oxygenated water to move towards the
bottom of the pond. The ripples going across the surface of the pond also looks
nice.

actually, the smaller the air bubbles coming out of the air stone the larger the over
all surface to volume ratio. which is why airstones can put so much more air into
water that just disturbing the surface.
now if those bubbles break the surface and rise into the air there is exchange both
on the inside and outside of that film of water.
an airstone in the water moves a water column up to the top and it flows outwards
creating a moving column of water that brings water from the bottom up to the top or
vertically. this is much better circulation than a venturi that moves water only
horizontally across the surface.
pumps should not be put on the bottom of ponds. too much chance of something going
wrong and the pond being drained.
Ingrid

Actually, the air water interface is at least as important, if not more
important. The larger the surface area of the air/water interface, the greater
the exchange of gases. While an airstone can pump air through the water, it
does so in a limited way, since it is only making contact with a small area of
water at a time and only influences the immediate area around the airstone. By
inducing a current across the surface of the water with a pump located at the
bottom of the pond, you will induce more gas exchange because of the greater
surface area involved. It also helps in preventing zonation from froming in the
water column, since you are pumping the water from the bottom and streaming it
across the surface, which in turn, allows oxygenated water to move towards the
bottom of the pond. The ripples going across the surface of the pond also looks
nice.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
actually, the smaller the air bubbles coming out of the air stone the larger
the over
all surface to volume ratio. which is why airstones can put so much more air
into
water that just disturbing the surface.
now if those bubbles break the surface and rise into the air there is exchange
both
on the inside and outside of that film of water.
an airstone in the water moves a water column up to the top and it flows
outwards
creating a moving column of water that brings water from the bottom up to the
top or
vertically. this is much better circulation than a venturi that moves water
only
horizontally across the surface.

In a pond, as opposed to an aquarium, in order to get an equivalent water flow
and gas exchange from an airstone would require vastly more air than most people
are willing to spend the money on, in my opinion. And the water movement into
the column disipates over a fairly short distance. oxygenating fresh water is
simpler, and less critical than it is with salt water, especially with goldfish,
since they can practically live in sewage. Larger fish like koi are a different
story. But the whole issue is probably moot anyway, since if the fish aren't
suffering, there is really no point in going to the added expense and trouble.
I can see a situation in which you have too much bioload in the pond then you
would need to add air, but to me the best solution is to simply reduce the
bioload. Fish gasping for air because of too little oxygen in the water is a
sure sign of a pond that simply has too much growth. The only time I use an
airstone is in the dead of winter to keep the water moving, since I don't want
to damage my pump by having it freeze up on me. I do use a floating de-icer,
but that doesn't guarantee that the water in the filter won't freeze.

pumps should not be put on the bottom of ponds. too much chance of something
going
wrong and the pond being drained.
Ingrid

I agree that you should never place the pump directly on the bottom of the pond
unprotected. However, if the piping is installed properly, and you add an
adequate pre-filter to the pump intake (one that can be easily cleaned), I see
no reason not to put a pump on the bottom. I don't do it simply because my
filtration system is designed differently. Personally, I use the suction method
in my filtration system instead of positive pressure for several reasons.
First, I have a 5 gallon pre-filter in the bottom of the pond, to which is
attached to the intake of the main filter. The main filter consists of an old
jacuzzi swimming pool filter housing (about 40 gallons capacity) that I have
adapted for use in the pond. The filter is submersed in the pond out of sight
beneath my waterfall. The intake line attaches to a 90degree elbow, which is
attached to a threaded coupling that goes into the bottom of the filter tank.
Attached to the coupling on the inside of the tank is a stainless steel basket
line strainer that catches any debris that happens to get past the prefilter
(which usually is very little). Surrounding the strainer is about 50 lbs of
quartz aquarium gravel, which fills the tank about half way to the top. Above
the gravel is a very course mesh polymer pad to keep the gravel from getting
sucked up into the pump. The pump sits about two inches above this pad. The
pump is attached to the top plate via fittings, into which the outlet is
attached. The electrical cable also goes through the top plate via a rubber
electrical grommet. The top of the filter sits about three inches below the top
of the water in the pond, so the pump intake itself is submerged into about the
top 15 inches of water.

The effect is just to suck or pull the water through the system. The only water
going through the pump is filtered water. It is at the end instead of at the
beginning of the filtration process. An added benfit is that it can never pump
all of the water out of the pond. I always know when the pre-filter needs
cleaning or the water level has dropped for some reason, because the pump will
raise pitch due to the water level being drawn down to the level of the pump
intake (inside the filter housing), causing a slight cavitation. Since I check
it every day, there is very little risk of the pump burning out due to extended
caviation and/or overheating. And the pump was actually designed to run
practially dry. When I get a chance, I will give you a link to some photos of
the filtration system. Oh, and because I use a very efficient pre-filter, I
almost never have to backwash the main filter, which allows the bacteria to
flourish undisturbed. I do, about once every six months, open the filter and
swish the gravel around to get rid of any potential clumping, and then pump the
gunk out into a bucket. But I haven't had to do it yet this year. I still have
full water flow. One day, when I decide to spend the money, which will probably
be whenever the pump fails, this is the pump that is on my "some day" wish list:

http://www.flotecpump.com/

Actually, the air water interface is at least as important, if not more
important. The larger the surface area of the air/water interface, the
greater
the exchange of gases. While an airstone can pump air through the water, it
does so in a limited way, since it is only making contact with a small area of
water at a time and only influences the immediate area around the airstone.
By
inducing a current across the surface of the water with a pump located at the
bottom of the pond, you will induce more gas exchange because of the greater
surface area involved. It also helps in preventing zonation from froming in
the
water column, since you are pumping the water from the bottom and streaming it
across the surface, which in turn, allows oxygenated water to move towards the
bottom of the pond. The ripples going across the surface of the pond also
looks
nice.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

I find GF more touchy about water quality and aeration than koi. Ingrid

" George" wrote:
oxygenating fresh water is
simpler, and less critical than it is with salt water, especially with goldfish,
since they can practically live in sewage.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
m...
I have a small 200 gph pump (very low power usage) submerged in my pond
for
additional aeration - just as added 'insurance'. The output is below the
water so the water is just 'bubbling' like a natural spring might. I do
not
want it splashing for several reasons. I have been told it is the
breaking
of the surface which helps to oxidize the water.
Questions: 1) Is this actually doing me some good. 2)Aesthetics aside
would
an airstone attached be significantly better.
Thanxx
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas



Try making a venturi out of pvc. This will give you the circulation benefit
of the pump with more aeration than an airstone. You can also make it for a
couple of bucks, so it's cheap to try.

Basically, your pump output goes into a piece of horizontal 1/2" pvc a
couple of feet long. Cut the pvc in half and add a T with the opening
pointing straight up. Get another piece of pvc long enough to fit in the T
and stick a couple inches out of the water. Cut one end at a 45 degree
angle and shave the pvc so it will fit past the stop in the T. It needs to
get down into the T and get into the flow coming from the pump, with the
open angle away from the pump. The water flow sucks air in from the upright
pvc and bubbles out of the lower pipe.

Here's a possibly better explanation, with a different method. With a small
pump, I'd stick with 1/2" pvc and shaving the pvc may be easier than finding
tubing that will fit inside the 1/2" pvc.

http://spaghoops.com/pond/venturi.htm

I'm also in Austin btw. My fish love playing in the bubbles, although I've
got a 1600 gph pump on the venturi which gives them a pretty good current to
play in.

thanks for the info grubber
On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 12:33:27 GMT, "Grubber"
wrote:

"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
om...
I have a small 200 gph pump (very low power usage) submerged in my pond
for
additional aeration - just as added 'insurance'. The output is below the
water so the water is just 'bubbling' like a natural spring might. I do
not
want it splashing for several reasons. I have been told it is the
breaking
of the surface which helps to oxidize the water.
Questions: 1) Is this actually doing me some good. 2)Aesthetics aside
would
an airstone attached be significantly better.
Thanxx
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas



Try making a venturi out of pvc. This will give you the circulation benefit
of the pump with more aeration than an airstone. You can also make it for a
couple of bucks, so it's cheap to try.

Basically, your pump output goes into a piece of horizontal 1/2" pvc a
couple of feet long. Cut the pvc in half and add a T with the opening
pointing straight up. Get another piece of pvc long enough to fit in the T
and stick a couple inches out of the water. Cut one end at a 45 degree
angle and shave the pvc so it will fit past the stop in the T. It needs to
get down into the T and get into the flow coming from the pump, with the
open angle away from the pump. The water flow sucks air in from the upright
pvc and bubbles out of the lower pipe.

Here's a possibly better explanation, with a different method. With a small
pump, I'd stick with 1/2" pvc and shaving the pvc may be easier than finding
tubing that will fit inside the 1/2" pvc.

http://spaghoops.com/pond/venturi.htm

I'm also in Austin btw. My fish love playing in the bubbles, although I've
got a 1600 gph pump on the venturi which gives them a pretty good current to
play in.

Let me try this again. Thanxx to all who have answered so far. All of your
suggestions are helpful but they may raise more questions than they answer.
Let me revert to 'pump layout 101' questions.
My pond is around 800 gallons. It is shaped like a snowman with a smaller
'circle' on top (about 5 ft wide) of a larger one (about 6 1/2 ft). There is
very little 'indentation'/restriction between the two circles. The top has
an irregular buttom (has a platform in it as the original owner had designed
it as mostly a spitter pond) but it is only about 18" deep in the small end
and 25" in the larger end. It is a little over 9 feet long. Accordingly it
does has a high surface to volume ratio, which I assume helps a little bit
in gas exchange. I have a 1600 gal Laguna pump(full open) running from the
deeper end to my filter which comes back in over a small shelf of two flat
rocks stacked on each other, in the shallow end. This does create minimal
splashing, some ripples and bubbles. The small pump in question is in the
middle of the larger circle. Surprising to me, the bubbling/rolling from
the 200 gph pump actually produces stronger ripples than the 'splash' end
(floating food is pushed towards the 'waterfall'). I have a bunch of water
lilies around the edge of the deep end which is why I am trying to avoid
splashing with the little pump. Even a very small bell fountain effect was
splashing the leaves and making visibility poor. It wont be long before the
water rolling from the small pump is pretty much the only open surface on
the deep end. I have about 8 submerged anarchis.
Everything is running well right now but I am particularly concerned about
it being so shallow and my first ponding hot Texas summer coming on. It
gets full afternoon sun. I have more flow from my big pump than I need. I
was planning to build a 'sink filter' as filter #2 and divert some flow to
it, as my fish load is very high. Naturally I am not getting a full 1600
gph due to elevation loss, but I think it would be adequate for both. Water
parameters are perfect right now, but they are growing right.
Now, as a result of your valuable input I am unsure how to proceed. I
would very much appreciate your educated guesses. I could divert the large
pump and try the venturi idea, and add new pump and filter as/if required
later. (Trying to avoid higher electricity usage when possible.) Your
input has now started me to consider zonation which I assume is
stratification(just read a bit about this). Perhaps? I should divert the
large pump for additional airation and just us the small to move lower water
some. I hadn't thought it through but to put in an airstone I would need
(even if small) an external pump that sucks air and not water right. I am a
bit concerned about moving the small pump much deeper since it has no
prefilter, just small slits in the case, which seem to plug up within 2-4
weeks just from algae growth, much less pulling sediment. The fountain tube
attached (I didnt mention before) put the bottom of the pump about a foot
deep and exiting about an inch from the water surface. I suspect if I lower
it much more there will be very little rolling water on the surface. I am
also wondering if I should be diverting from the large pump directly into
the pond just for water movement. or. or. or. Probably there are other
permutations which I havent considered.
Sorry to be so lengthy but, like I am discovering in ponding, few things
have a totally simple straightforward solution when my budget is small and
my ambitions are large. Thanks again for all the help. My general naivete
was once again in full force when I first started 'building my pond'. I
love it, but every time I learn something - which is almost daily - I learn
two more things I dont know enough about. I can only begin to imagine the
disasters I would have already encountered if I didnt have this group for
soooooo much support.
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas (for Grubber it's actually Leander)


"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
m...
I have a small 200 gph pump (very low power usage) submerged in my pond
for
additional aeration - just as added 'insurance'. The output is below the
water so the water is just 'bubbling' like a natural spring might. I do
not
want it splashing for several reasons. I have been told it is the
breaking
of the surface which helps to oxidize the water.
Questions: 1) Is this actually doing me some good. 2)Aesthetics aside
would
an airstone attached be significantly better.
Thanxx
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas

"Newbie Bill" wrote in message
m...
Let me try this again. Thanxx to all who have answered so far. All of
your
suggestions are helpful but they may raise more questions than they
answer.
snip

What was the question again? LOL.

Seriously. Your parameters, as you say, are fine. You have adequate
filtration. Your fish are not gasping like two pack a day smokers at the
surface. Me thinks you are falling prey to one of the most primal ponding
effections...you are worrying to much. If'n your pond is workin', don't go'a
fixin' it.

Aeration is important, but it's nothing something to lose sleep over.
Certainly not scientifically speaking, but if you have moving water, good
water params and happy fish, I'd say you have plenty of aeration.

You mention the Texas summer coming...you may be more interested in some
shade.

BV.