kh weirdness

Hi!

This is a request for help. I lurk a lot and am somehwat new to
aquariums and new to planted aquariums, and have gained so much
valuable information from all of the rec.aquaria forums.

I have just started up a tiny (5 gallon) aquarium. I decided to try
the diy yeast method CO2 injection and since I've never attempted it I
opted not to put anything live in yet, so there is only substrate
(Eco-Complete) and water.

After a day or so of CO2 injection I tested the water. Strangely, my
kh went up from 4.5 tap water level to 7. The Ph went up too, from
7.6-7.8 tap water level to 8.0. Huh? So, I increased the yeast:sugar
ratio today and the Ph has fallen to tap water level but the kh went up
9. I measured it twice and then checked the tap water level again to
make sure the test itself wasn't faulty.

I scooped out some substrate and tried the vinegar test and no fizz.

The only other factor is ammonia. I'm trying the fishless cycling
method and it's currently 5.0 and nitrites appeared today at .25. I
don't think this is relavent, though.

I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. I searched the forums and the
only other mention of a kh rise w/ Co2 involved a tablet (I'm using
yeast). Can anyone help me?

"Robin" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi!

This is a request for help. I lurk a lot and am somehwat new to
aquariums and new to planted aquariums, and have gained so much
valuable information from all of the rec.aquaria forums.

I have just started up a tiny (5 gallon) aquarium. I decided to try
the diy yeast method CO2 injection and since I've never attempted it I
opted not to put anything live in yet, so there is only substrate
(Eco-Complete) and water.

After a day or so of CO2 injection I tested the water. Strangely, my
kh went up from 4.5 tap water level to 7. The Ph went up too, from
7.6-7.8 tap water level to 8.0. Huh? So, I increased the yeast:sugar
ratio today and the Ph has fallen to tap water level but the kh went up
9. I measured it twice and then checked the tap water level again to
make sure the test itself wasn't faulty.

I scooped out some substrate and tried the vinegar test and no fizz.

What's the substrate? Pebbles, sea sand? Vinegar isn't strong enough to
really test for bicarbonate. Use pH down instead.

The only thing I can think of that would raise these figures is
Magnesium/Sulphates and Sodium/Bicarbonate. I think phosphate can do it too
if it's at a high enough level. Do you know what chemicals are in your tap
water?

You really need the tank cycled completely and plants and fish in it before
you start with the CO2.

It's going to be hard to get a grip on the chemistry of the tank whilst the
ammonia and nitrite haven't really had a chance to happen. Real plants will
help here because they, to some extent, will help with the cycle, but you
need ammonia to start it off in the first place, and I personally don't
believe those bacterial "starter" liquids are as good as real biology at
cycling a tank.

No judgement here; but I think you should yank the CO2, and take a step
back. Be patient whilst the tank cycles. Get some plants in and THEN start
the CO2, once you've got a handle on the water chemistry.

Too many things are incomplete or all over the place and out of balance, the
way the tank currently is.


The only other factor is ammonia. I'm trying the fishless cycling
method and it's currently 5.0 and nitrites appeared today at .25. I
don't think this is relavent, though.

I do. Ammonia will raise the pH and so will Nitrite. Nitrate will lower it.

You don't tell us about your filtration either - that could be an issue as
well, but it's hard to tell when I'm guessing


I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. I searched the forums and the
only other mention of a kh rise w/ Co2 involved a tablet (I'm using
yeast). Can anyone help me?

Yes, we can help. My advice is back off - cycle the tank - add some plants
and fish after the cycle is complete and then add sufficient lighting and
lastly CO2.

You could forego the CO2 gas and use something like Seachem Flourish, which
has the carbon in soluble chemical form.

Personally, although my plants are going fine with Yeast CO2 and my pH only
bounces around 0.2 between dark and light, I find it's quite a routine to
get two bottles "cycling" - i.e. start one, one week, then the other the
next week and interchange each bottle a fortnight later - in other words
you're making up a bottle a week constantly.

If two bottles are started at the same time I get a big pH drop, then a rise
in pH about a week later - it holds for a week or so, then rises again to
0.2 below tap water when the bubble count lowers as the mixtures peeter out.
My KH wavers during this type of cycle by about 1dKH, so in figures it looks
like this(pH): 7.8 - 6.8 - 7.0 - 7.2 - 7.4 - 7.6-7.7 which is not good
for the fish IMO.

Even with cycling bottles this cycle of pH happens but the drop from 7.8 is
only to 7.2 and it goes lower for about a week to 6.8 and then raises back
to about 7.2 at it's worst.

It's not visibly affecting any of my fish at this time, but I do worry that
it's stressing them out over a longer period and therefore weakening them in
the long run.

I am tottering with the idea of getting rid of the DIY CO2 and using
Flourish and substrate fertilizers. We'll see. It depends on how much longer
I can stand the chemistry bouncing around in the water column.

The other option is to buy a regulated tank CO2 system, but when all is said
and done, I want my tank to look at, not as some type of scientific project.
It's a matter of finding a balance for the tank, and a greater balance of
techniques to obtain that balance, so you can sit back and enjoy it.

Oz

Ozdude wrote:

You really need the tank cycled completely and plants and fish in it before
you start with the CO2.


Set up an aquarium with enough quick growing plants, light and CO2, and
the tank will even skip the cycling process altogether because the
plants will consume the preferred ammonia directly.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm

Nikki

"Nikki Casali" wrote in message
...


Ozdude wrote:

You really need the tank cycled completely and plants and fish in it
before you start with the CO2.


Set up an aquarium with enough quick growing plants, light and CO2, and
the tank will even skip the cycling process altogether because the plants
will consume the preferred ammonia directly.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm

Sometimes It depends on the number of plants. I think they are talking a
really dense planting, to be honest.

Most people start of with nowhere near enough plants at the beginning of a
tank, well not enough to outcompete algae and act as chemical sponges.

If there is one plant I can recommend if you are going to try this it would
be Hornwort, and lots of it.

Oz

Ozdude wrote:
"Nikki Casali" wrote in message
...


Ozdude wrote:


You really need the tank cycled completely and plants and fish in it
before you start with the CO2.


Set up an aquarium with enough quick growing plants, light and CO2, and
the tank will even skip the cycling process altogether because the plants
will consume the preferred ammonia directly.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm


Sometimes It depends on the number of plants. I think they are talking a
really dense planting, to be honest.

Most people start of with nowhere near enough plants at the beginning of a
tank, well notenoughtooutcompetealgaeandactaschemicalsponges.

If there is one plant I can recommend if you are going to try this it would
be Hornwort, and lots of it.

I've just started another planted tank, 110L. I've put in a huge bunch
of Elodea, a Watersprite, Java Fern and a couple of rows of Echinodorus
Tenellus. The Elodea, especially, is pearling like crazy. I've also put
in 4 Amano shrimp, 3 Cherry Barbs and 1 Ancistrus. I'm 3 days in and
ammonia still reads 0. To be honest, I've only thrown in a couple of
flakes, but none of the occupants seems interested.

The Cherry Barbs are chasing each other like nutters. Hyperactive or
what? The shrimp appear to be extremely busy doing something with their
hands and feet. Can't tell what. And the lone Ancistrus is window
cleaning free of charge. I'm presuming all of these critters can survive
on algae alone?

I'm going to start increasing the food gradually. If I start getting an
ammonia reading, I'll cut back on the food and let the plants catch up.
This will be an interesting experiment...erm..or science project!

Nikki

Ozdude wrote:
"Nikki Casali" wrote in message
...


Ozdude wrote:


You really need the tank cycled completely and plants and fish in it
before you start with the CO2.


Set up an aquarium with enough quick growing plants, light and CO2, and
the tank will even skip the cycling process altogether because the plants
will consume the preferred ammonia directly.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm


Sometimes It depends on the number of plants. I think they are talking a
really dense planting, to be honest.

Most people start of with nowhere near enough plants at the beginning of a
tank, well not enough to outcompete algae and act as chemical sponges.

If there is one plant I can recommend if you are going to try this it would
be Hornwort, and lots of it.

Oz


It usually works because there are almost always active nitrifying
bacteria on the leaves of the plants which seed the tank. This is
because there are fish, snails, shrimp, or other forms of
ammonia-producing aquatic life in the plant tanks of most fish stores.
Start with enough plants and you get enough bacteria to avoid a "cycle".
The plants also directly absorb ammonia, but I honestly don't believe
that's why you can get a cycle-free tank with enough plants.

--
__ Elaine T __
__' http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__

Elaine T wrote:
It usually works because there are almost always active nitrifying
bacteria on the leaves of the plants which seed the tank. This is
because there are fish, snails, shrimp, or other forms of
ammonia-producing aquatic life in the plant tanks of most fish stores.
Start with enough plants and you get enough bacteria to avoid a "cycle".
The plants also directly absorb ammonia, but I honestly don't believe
that's why you can get a cycle-free tank with enough plants.


I don't usually sterilise plants, some do though with potassium
permanganate, hydrogen peroxide and bleach. I bet this has an impact on
that beneficial bacteria.

Nikki

Buy a box of carbon dioxide control system, but when it was all over and do, and I want to see my tank, and not, as certain types of scientific projects. This is a problem to find a balance between the tanks, and more balanced technology achieve that balance, so you can sit back and enjoy it.

Robin wrote:
Hi!

This is a request for help. [***]

I have [a 5gal, with DIY, eco-complete and no livestock].

After a day or so of CO2 injection I tested the water. Strangely, my
kh went up from 4.5 tap water level to 7. The Ph went up too, from
7.6-7.8 tap water level to 8.0. Huh? So, I increased the
yeast:sugar
ratio today and the Ph has fallen to tap water level but the kh went
up
9. I measured it twice and then checked the tap water level again to
make sure the test itself wasn't faulty.

I scooped out some substrate and tried the vinegar test and no fizz.

What you didn't report, however, was what would happen to the apparent
KH and pH of your 5-gal tank *without* the DIY yeast going. So, off
the top of my head, here are some experiments you can do:

(1)
Do a near-total (or total) water change, and discontinue DIY CO2.
Also, keep some new tapwater in a clean glass container open to the
atmosphere. Over the course of a day or two, perform KH and pH
analyses of the tapwater stored in the clean glass container, and the
water in the tank.

You should expect to see some excursion in the pH in the first day or
so, as the waters outgas and equilibrate CO2 with the air. After
sitting for 24 hrs (and probably less, since it's only a 5g tank) there
should be no further pH excursions in the aquarium unless you have
something going on in the substrate (decomposing mulm, or sneaky
carbonates, etc.)

If, after a couple days, you have observed a stabilization of KH and
pH, then you may have some cause to suspect something screwy with the
DIY CO2 was tweaking your water.

If, after a couple days, you have NOT observed a stabilization of KH
and pH, then you may have some cause to suspect *both* the substrate
and your DIY CO2.

(2)
Get 2 clean glass containers, fill each with tapwater before bedtime.
Next morning, wake up and take KH and pH readings on each. Then
connect your DIY CO2 to one container. Go to work, have a life for a
day, etc. Next, test KH and pH of both containers' water.

If your DIY CO2 has been working correctly, the KH of both containers'
water should be the same. The pH of the CO2-injected water should, of
course, have lowered.

If the KH of the CO2-injected water *has* changed, then the only think
I can think that means is that some of the yeast soup from the
fermenter is getting into the water and mucking things up.

(3)
This is more of a research type experiment. Go to google, and try to
find a recent analysis of your tapwater source. If you live somewhere
civilized, i.e. a city or something like it, the water utility's
analysis is almost sure to be findable. If you're on a well, you may
have a tougher time with this. I think you'll be most interested in
the carbonate hardness (which you'll likely get in equivalent ppm of
CO3--) but it could be of interest if you have a big phosphate spike in
there, too.


The only other factor is ammonia. I'm trying the fishless cycling
method and it's currently 5.0 and nitrites appeared today at .25. I
don't think this is relavent, though.

I think we can safely neglect ammonia for this, yes.

I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. I searched the forums and the
only other mention of a kh rise w/ Co2 involved a tablet (I'm using
yeast). Can anyone help me?


Here's yet more info. Case study: my tanks and tapwater. I live in
NYC, and the tapwater has a KH of 1. Though I'm running a large tank
with few fish and it would be safe to keep a KH that low, I nonetheless
do not, and up it to somewhere between 3-4 with baking soda. I run
pressurized CO2 and a pH controller to keep the whole pH/KH/CO2
equation where I want it.

In my opinion, once you have an understanding of the KH/pH/CO2
relationship, getting and using a pH controller and pressurised CO2 is
the single easiest and most brainless way to get your water to any
desired pH while maintaining the CO2 concentration plants like.

HTH,
Trapper

Thanks for all of your suggestions.

The tank had been set up previously so I am fairly confident about the
behavior my non-co2 water values. (The little minnows I kept sadly
were infected w/ tb and died off. I took the tank apart and gave
everything a good bleach soaking/scrubbing followed by lots of rinsing
and decholorinating, a new filter pad and bio-wheel, and new gravel.)
The ph is 7.0 out of the tap, 7.5ish after standing (CO2 dissolves),
and used to fluctuate from 7.8 to 8.2 with the presence of a plant.
The kh had always been stable at 4.5.

So, you're right, something is either screwy with the gravel or the diy
CO2. I removed the CO2 for now and changed the water in the tank, and
am going to observe the kh/ph with just the gravel. I think I'll also
try the CO2 container test you mentioned. Hopefully I'll get some
clues!

I'm occasionally in NYC and enjoy the famously soft water. ((My
friends tell me it's the secret to those delicious bagels.)