First Loss!

Hello,

Well, I had my first "fish loss" today - one of the juvenile angelfish
was swimming on its side, and then upside down, this AM. I moved it to
a quarantine tank to observe and try to treat it, but it died before I
had a chance to try anything. No sign of trauma or attack.

I've checked water levels (I am due to water change today), and they
are at 0-0-20 (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate), with a seemingly-stable pH
of 7.0. Water is quite "soft" in both KH and GH. I have been changing
about 33% each week when I gravel-vac. My last water change was 6 days
ago - right before getting those new angels. The only thing amiss
seems to be water that is slightly white/cloudy.

Since this is a relatively new tank, I am concerned that something is
wrong. It seems to have cycled OK (I added BioSpira 1.5 months ago to
speed it up), and I have added the fish slowly. I have been checking
ammonia-nitrite-nitrate and pH levels daily. The other fish seem fine
- one other juvenile angel, 6 cory cats, 2 full-size male dwarf
gouramis, and 3 juvenile female dwarf gouramis. Everyone is eating -
frozen bloodworms, brine shrimp, and flake/small pellet food in
rotation, along with sinking carnivore and algae tablets for the corys.
The only threat to the angels would have been the dwarf gouramis, but
they ignore each other totally from what I have seen. (The gouramis do
tussle with each other, but nothing serious.)

I had had the juv. angels for 6 days. (They were/are about 1-in. in
body height). They were tankmates at the LFS - I have not observed any
aggression between them. I am not sure how long they had been in the
LFS, though. Maybe new arrivals? I know Internet diagnosis is rather
silly, but I can't resist! Do you think it was probably something
wrong with the fish - or my tank? :-(

Thanks for any insights,

- Lisa

"Lisa" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello,

Well, I had my first "fish loss" today - one of the juvenile angelfish
was swimming on its side, and then upside down, this AM. I moved it to
a quarantine tank to observe and try to treat it, but it died before I
had a chance to try anything. No sign of trauma or attack.

I've checked water levels (I am due to water change today), and they
are at 0-0-20 (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate), with a seemingly-stable pH
of 7.0. Water is quite "soft" in both KH and GH. I have been changing
about 33% each week when I gravel-vac. My last water change was 6 days
ago - right before getting those new angels. The only thing amiss
seems to be water that is slightly white/cloudy.

Since this is a relatively new tank, I am concerned that something is
wrong. It seems to have cycled OK (I added BioSpira 1.5 months ago to
speed it up), and I have added the fish slowly. I have been checking
ammonia-nitrite-nitrate and pH levels daily. The other fish seem fine
- one other juvenile angel, 6 cory cats, 2 full-size male dwarf
gouramis, and 3 juvenile female dwarf gouramis. Everyone is eating -
frozen bloodworms, brine shrimp, and flake/small pellet food in
rotation, along with sinking carnivore and algae tablets for the corys.
The only threat to the angels would have been the dwarf gouramis, but
they ignore each other totally from what I have seen. (The gouramis do
tussle with each other, but nothing serious.)

I had had the juv. angels for 6 days. (They were/are about 1-in. in
body height). They were tankmates at the LFS - I have not observed any
aggression between them. I am not sure how long they had been in the
LFS, though. Maybe new arrivals? I know Internet diagnosis is rather
silly, but I can't resist! Do you think it was probably something
wrong with the fish - or my tank? :-(

Thanks for any insights,

- Lisa

Hi Lisa

I think that your problem is with your angel fish, and not your tank. I
just recently acquired my first angels as well. From what I've read they
can be very delicate. The first ones I had were from a "big box" petstore.
Of the 5 I purchased, only 1 remains. The others were from Big Al's and of
the 3 I got from them, I only had one fatality. I was told they were
sensitive to water changes, temperature changes, etc... A couple of mine
that died seemed OK for a few days and then just gradually deteriorated
until they died.

Not a definitive answer for you, but you're not alone!

Jacqui

"C+J Tondreau" wrote in message
news

"Lisa" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello,

Well, I had my first "fish loss" today - one of the juvenile angelfish
was swimming on its side, and then upside down, this AM. I moved it
to
a quarantine tank to observe and try to treat it, but it died before I
had a chance to try anything. No sign of trauma or attack.

I've checked water levels (I am due to water change today), and they
are at 0-0-20 (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate), with a seemingly-stable pH
of 7.0. Water is quite "soft" in both KH and GH. I have been
changing
about 33% each week when I gravel-vac. My last water change was 6
days
ago - right before getting those new angels. The only thing amiss
seems to be water that is slightly white/cloudy.

Since this is a relatively new tank, I am concerned that something is
wrong. It seems to have cycled OK (I added BioSpira 1.5 months ago to
speed it up), and I have added the fish slowly. I have been checking
ammonia-nitrite-nitrate and pH levels daily. The other fish seem fine
- one other juvenile angel, 6 cory cats, 2 full-size male dwarf
gouramis, and 3 juvenile female dwarf gouramis. Everyone is eating -
frozen bloodworms, brine shrimp, and flake/small pellet food in
rotation, along with sinking carnivore and algae tablets for the
corys.
The only threat to the angels would have been the dwarf gouramis, but
they ignore each other totally from what I have seen. (The gouramis
do
tussle with each other, but nothing serious.)

I had had the juv. angels for 6 days. (They were/are about 1-in. in
body height). They were tankmates at the LFS - I have not observed any
aggression between them. I am not sure how long they had been in the
LFS, though. Maybe new arrivals? I know Internet diagnosis is rather
silly, but I can't resist! Do you think it was probably something
wrong with the fish - or my tank? :-(

Thanks for any insights,

- Lisa

Hi Lisa

I think that your problem is with your angel fish, and not your tank.
I
just recently acquired my first angels as well. From what I've read
they
can be very delicate. The first ones I had were from a "big box"
petstore.
Of the 5 I purchased, only 1 remains. The others were from Big Al's
and of
the 3 I got from them, I only had one fatality. I was told they were
sensitive to water changes, temperature changes, etc... A couple of
mine
that died seemed OK for a few days and then just gradually deteriorated
until they died.

Not a definitive answer for you, but you're not alone!

Jacqui


The bottom line is that you're within acceptable losses. For example,
transport stress affects all fish, but some more than others. When
stocking a tank, it's not unusual to overstock by 10-20% to allow for
some losses. With African cichlids, 5% might be more typical, with
Neons, Rams, Balas, Angelfish, Chocolate & Dwarf gouramis etc, perhaps
25%, Otos, Hatchetfish, Guppies etc over 30% etc etc. I don't consider
them under my responsibility until at least a week has passed, and truly
stable until about 3 months. jmo
--
www.NetMax.tk

You're absolutely right. However, it's hard not to take the loss of
each fish as a personal failure. :-)

Since I am a dedicated gardener, I tend to look at the aquarium
situation in terms of absolutes: get the "recipe" right, and everything
should thrive. It does that with plants, after all! But, that doesn't
necessarily follow, in logical terms, for the freshwater aquarium
scene.

Thanks for the verification. I was hoping that the fish loss wasn't
due to something that (1) I did or (2) failed to do . . .

- Lisa in Central Coast LA

"Lisa" wrote...
You're absolutely right. However, it's hard not to take the loss of
each fish as a personal failure. :-)

Since I am a dedicated gardener, I tend to look at the aquarium
situation in terms of absolutes: get the "recipe" right, and everything
should thrive. It does that with plants, after all! But, that doesn't
necessarily follow, in logical terms, for the freshwater aquarium
scene.

Thanks for the verification. I was hoping that the fish loss wasn't
due to something that (1) I did or (2) failed to do . . .


just to exemplify with the flip side; i have an angel i got when i was first
starting out, a juvinille from the local chain store- he is now a fully 7"
high 6" long beauty. what is extrodinair is that he has survived every newby
mistake one could make. he has been bounced from tank to tank at a whim,
survived in a tank with no water changes (only water refills) for months,
and has just recently survived a move into a new house. i would swear there
is nothing at this point that this guy can not survive,... and it has
nothing to do with me or something i did or didnt do, because by rights he
should have been gone along time ago. sometimes it really is just the fish.

"Lisa" wrote in message
oups.com...
You're absolutely right. However, it's hard not to take the loss of
each fish as a personal failure. :-)

Since I am a dedicated gardener, I tend to look at the aquarium
situation in terms of absolutes: get the "recipe" right, and everything
should thrive. It does that with plants, after all! But, that doesn't
necessarily follow, in logical terms, for the freshwater aquarium
scene.

Thanks for the verification. I was hoping that the fish loss wasn't
due to something that (1) I did or (2) failed to do . . .

Hi Lisa,

I had the same dilemma today and the post I saw from NetMax yesterday eased
my personal guilt eventually.

I bought 6 Buenos Aries Tetras today on impulse (I know! I know!), and I
knew at the time of purchase there was something about them that was a
reason they weren't a popular fish, but they looked so good I had to have
some

I got them home pronto, as the day temp today here was over 30C and did my
normal acclimatising routine of 30 minutes in the bag in shop water - 10
minutes 50% shop 50% my tank - 10 minutes 5% shop 95% my tank water - and
then fed the main tank and released them.

They shoaled together for the feeding frenzy and established a little
territory by fin nipping anyone. It turned out later on in the day the
nipping is just like the Serpae - it's a territorial thing, not something
they delight in doing like a tiger barb.

I had to go out on urgent business, so I couldn't sit there and nurse them
through anything if it happened. I left the room to get changed and I came
back to have a look and noticed one of the new additions was hanging in the
back corner gulping at the surface, being picked on by the three female
swords. I also noticed that some of it's scales were catching the light and
shining quite brightly. It was fine during the bag acclimatisaion and
couldn't wait to get out. No indication at all in the bag.

While I was out I was pondering if it would be alright and what had I done
incorrectly, if anything? After much mulling over of thought about it I came
to the conclusion that given that the other 5 were perfectly fine, feeding
no problems and doing what Buenos Aries Tetras are claimed to do - fin nip
and nibble live plants (this is why more people don't have them
apparently) - that this one was probably weakened from the time it was in
the shop.

The only thing I could think of was possible osmotic shock (not knowing
whether my GH and KH are really off the scale - see my post yesterday about
this concern), but even that didn't quite ring true because the other 5 were
absolutely fine.

Any way I got home later on and discovered that #6 had completely
disappeared from the tank - sound familiar?? Just like the missing Hockey
Stick Tetra of a week or so ago. I've checked everywhere and this time I
even uprooted plants and disturbed the gravel. I checked all the filters,
inside and out, under the rocks, pulled all suckers off - everything and
everywhere possible that a fish could get into by accident in a tank and no
Buenos Aries #6, Checked the floor, under, around all over the stand and
still it's completely missing.

So, my conclusion is this: sometimes it's beyond an individual's control or
ability to have 100% success with some fish - what looks fine and healthy in
the shop possibly is just that - looking healthy - it doesn't mean it is.

I am convinced now, and have no thought that it was something I did - it was
just a fish, that in the wild, would have succumbed the laws of survival of
the fittest. I'd venture to say it was sick from the shop and the stress of
heat and transport floored it.

As for it's disappearance - perhaps my Mystery Snail is living up to it's
name? I'm really starting to think this creature is devouring these fish
whole in quick time - it must have been all of four hours between me leaving
the fish and returning.

I just can't believe it's eating everything including the bones, although it
does seem to have a big pink mouth

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith