Cycling question

My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's not
planning on using any substrate.
My question is this: is substrate important other than for decoration?
Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?

-m

"m" wrote in message
...
My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's
not
planning on using any substrate.
My question is this: is substrate important other than for
decoration?
Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?

-m

Yes. Bare-bottom tanks are very common for commecial breeders, as
well as for use as a quarantine tank. As long as there is an
environment for the nitrifying bacteria (filter media) It will be
fine. As a display tank, I don't like the look, myself, but it's very
easy to keep the tank clean, hence the popularity among breeders.



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----
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"m" wrote in message
...
My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's not
planning on using any substrate.
My question is this: is substrate important other than for decoration?

Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the pieces of
larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the case
with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of surface
area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as the
bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as a
filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures, sterilization
due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering effect.
Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I wouldn't be
concerned about not using any substrate.

Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?

Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter media
from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.

-m

--
www.NetMax.tk

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:16:45 -0400, "NetMax"
wrote:

"m" wrote in message
.. .
My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's not
planning on using any substrate.
My question is this: is substrate important other than for decoration?

Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the pieces of
larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the case
with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of surface
area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as the
bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as a
filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures, sterilization
due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering effect.
Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I wouldn't be
concerned about not using any substrate.

Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?

Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter media
from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.

-m

Netmax,

I think you just confirmed what I have been suspecting. My hospital
tank is bare bottomed. It is the only tank I have with cloudy water.
It has one Whisper Jr. so when I clean the media, the main bacteria
refuge is purged. I have been thinking it is the lack of gravel to
hold the bacteria.

I have 2 other 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr.s, what would you think
if I cleaned one of those other filters, run it for a few days, then
put it in to the hospital tank filter and then clean the dirty
hospital filter media and put into the tank that has gravel.

Any thoughts?

dick

Dick wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:16:45 -0400, "NetMax"
wrote:


"m" wrote in message
. ..

My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's not
planning on using any substrate.
My question is this: is substrate important other than for decoration?

Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the pieces of
larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the case
with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of surface
area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as the
bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as a
filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures, sterilization
due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering effect.
Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I wouldn't be
concerned about not using any substrate.


Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?

Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter media

from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.

-m


Netmax,

I think you just confirmed what I have been suspecting. My hospital
tank is bare bottomed. It is the only tank I have with cloudy water.
It has one Whisper Jr. so when I clean the media, the main bacteria
refuge is purged. I have been thinking it is the lack of gravel to
hold the bacteria.

I have 2 other 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr.s, what would you think
if I cleaned one of those other filters, run it for a few days, then
put it in to the hospital tank filter and then clean the dirty
hospital filter media and put into the tank that has gravel.

Any thoughts?

dick

I'm not NetMax, but I love air-driven sponge filters in bare-bottomed
hospital tanks. You never replace filter media but only rinse it
occasionally so the water is always clear. Sponge filters also have a
fantastic biological capacity because of the large surface area and slow
flow so they handle situations like growing out fry or your blind fish
where you put more food in a tank than normal.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

"Dick" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:16:45 -0400, "NetMax"
wrote:

"m" wrote in message
. ..
My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's not
planning on using any substrate.
My question is this: is substrate important other than for
decoration?

Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the pieces
of
larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the case
with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of
surface
area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as the
bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as a
filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures, sterilization
due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering effect.
Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I wouldn't
be
concerned about not using any substrate.

Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?

Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter
media
from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.

-m

Netmax,

I think you just confirmed what I have been suspecting. My hospital
tank is bare bottomed. It is the only tank I have with cloudy water.
It has one Whisper Jr. so when I clean the media, the main bacteria
refuge is purged. I have been thinking it is the lack of gravel to
hold the bacteria.

I have 2 other 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr.s, what would you think
if I cleaned one of those other filters, run it for a few days, then
put it in to the hospital tank filter and then clean the dirty
hospital filter media and put into the tank that has gravel.

Any thoughts?

dick

Sounds ok if your hospital tank is being used for isolation, quarantine
etc. If is for disease management, I wouldn't like sharing the sponges
back & forth too much. I'm not Elaine ;~) but I like her idea of sponge
filters for small tanks like this.
--
www.NetMax.tk

On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:12:07 -0400, "NetMax"
wrote:

"Dick" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:16:45 -0400, "NetMax"
wrote:

"m" wrote in message
...
My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's not
planning on using any substrate.
My question is this: is substrate important other than for
decoration?

Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the pieces
of
larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the case
with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of
surface
area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as the
bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as a
filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures, sterilization
due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering effect.
Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I wouldn't
be
concerned about not using any substrate.

Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?

Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter
media
from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.

-m

Netmax,

I think you just confirmed what I have been suspecting. My hospital
tank is bare bottomed. It is the only tank I have with cloudy water.
It has one Whisper Jr. so when I clean the media, the main bacteria
refuge is purged. I have been thinking it is the lack of gravel to
hold the bacteria.

I have 2 other 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr.s, what would you think
if I cleaned one of those other filters, run it for a few days, then
put it in to the hospital tank filter and then clean the dirty
hospital filter media and put into the tank that has gravel.

Any thoughts?

dick

Sounds ok if your hospital tank is being used for isolation, quarantine
etc. If is for disease management, I wouldn't like sharing the sponges
back & forth too much. I'm not Elaine ;~) but I like her idea of sponge
filters for small tanks like this.


Yesterday, I swapped cartridges between the hospital tank and another
10 gal tank. This morning the water is clear. I think the lack of
gravel keeps the tank from staying cycled. The hospital tank is the
only one I vacuum the bottom to keep the loose debris down. It is
planted with the plants kept on the bottom by lead weights.

I also wonder about swapping the cartridges from the hospital tank to
the clean tank. No problem bringing the clean tank cartridge to the
hospital tank. So, cannot the hospital tank cartridge be cleaned with
hot water and make it safe? I don't often have fish problems that
require toxic treatment, mostly old age related or physical damage.
Of the 3 currently in the tank, only 1 needs to be there. She is
mostly blind and has a twisted spine making it hard for her to compete
in a large tank.

dick

"Dick" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:12:07 -0400, "NetMax"
wrote:

"Dick" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:16:45 -0400, "NetMax"
wrote:

"m" wrote in message
m...
My friend is setting up a 5 gallon tank for some killies and he's
not
planning on using any substrate.
My question is this: is substrate important other than for
decoration?

Depends on the situation. Very small fry will hide between the
pieces
of
larger diameter gravel (though I don't know if that would be the case
with Killies). The gravel also provides a significant amount of
surface
area for good bacteria. While not as efficient or as important as
the
bacteria in your filter, the gravel doesn't have the same risks as a
filter (changes in flow due to clogging, power failures,
sterilization
due to improper cleaning etc), so it provides a small buffering
effect.
Gravel is not essential, and also has some disadvantages. I wouldn't
be
concerned about not using any substrate.

Will he be able to cycle his tank without it?

Yes, I don't see why not. Install a filter using well used filter
media
from an established tank and you are essentially cycled.

-m

Netmax,

I think you just confirmed what I have been suspecting. My hospital
tank is bare bottomed. It is the only tank I have with cloudy water.
It has one Whisper Jr. so when I clean the media, the main bacteria
refuge is purged. I have been thinking it is the lack of gravel to
hold the bacteria.

I have 2 other 10 gallon tanks with Whisper Jr.s, what would you
think
if I cleaned one of those other filters, run it for a few days, then
put it in to the hospital tank filter and then clean the dirty
hospital filter media and put into the tank that has gravel.

Any thoughts?

dick

Sounds ok if your hospital tank is being used for isolation, quarantine
etc. If is for disease management, I wouldn't like sharing the sponges
back & forth too much. I'm not Elaine ;~) but I like her idea of
sponge
filters for small tanks like this.


Yesterday, I swapped cartridges between the hospital tank and another
10 gal tank. This morning the water is clear. I think the lack of
gravel keeps the tank from staying cycled. The hospital tank is the
only one I vacuum the bottom to keep the loose debris down. It is
planted with the plants kept on the bottom by lead weights.

I also wonder about swapping the cartridges from the hospital tank to
the clean tank. No problem bringing the clean tank cartridge to the
hospital tank. So, cannot the hospital tank cartridge be cleaned with
hot water and make it safe? I don't often have fish problems that
require toxic treatment, mostly old age related or physical damage.
Of the 3 currently in the tank, only 1 needs to be there. She is
mostly blind and has a twisted spine making it hard for her to compete
in a large tank.

dick

Regarding the use of sponges which 'lack confidence' for the lack of a
better term, anything which came in contact with questionable organisms,
the correct procedure to follow for sterilization varies according to who
is giving the instructions. There is the technical version which is
something like 85C for 20 minutes (someone please supply exact values),
others say boil for a couple of minutes, others use sterilizing
chemicals.

I can only tell you what I do myself, and I make no recommendation of it.
First I rinse in water which is not so hot that I can't have my hands in
it. Then I squeeze out the water, and I let it dry out. I have a few
extra sponges from unused filters. These questionable sponges get left
on the tank cover (in the sunlight) or thrown into a box to dry out. My
thinking is that the rinsing removes most of the stuff, the water
temperature kills more stuff, and dehydration takes care of anything left
over. It might not be 100% effective, but it's probably the most
effective you can get for the least amount of chemical-free effort ;~).
It's also similar to what I do for gravel, tanks and accessories (hot
rinse and dehydration).

If the sponge comes from a really sick tank, then I just throw it in the
garbage. hth
--
www.NetMax.tk