Water change = new surprises

Hi.
It's year 2 and just did a full water change on our little 300 gallon pond.
Found a few surprises when the pool was emptied.
First off, about a week ago I was out of town for 6 days and when I came
back I decided to do the water change as it was pretty mungy as I left. At
the time of leaving there were 5 fish (from the original 6) that survived
our mild winter: 3 goldies, 2 skubunkins(?) Now, after doing the water
change I found only 3 goldies, 2 tiny fingerlings (look like imported trout
from a friends wild pond), and 3 - 3" frogs!
My concern is, what happened to the 2 skubunkins while I was away? No
bodies found at the bottom. Neighbourhood cats? ..nah, the pond sides are
too steep and no plants we disturbed. Not aware of any raccoons in the area
either, and again nothing disturbed. So, do frogs eat 6" fish? Are the 2
tiny fingerlings that aggressive? How about the goldies as all 3 of those
survived. There are lots of tall everygreens surrounding the property and
thought there might be predators in those trees. But haven't seen any
eagles or herrons, etc. Perhaps they dropped by when they detected no
humans around for the week?

Your thoughts?
Thanks.
Jack

"Jack" wrote in message
news:u4dhe.38140$0X6.21406@edtnps90...
Hi.
It's year 2 and just did a full water change on our little 300 gallon
pond.
Found a few surprises when the pool was emptied.
First off, about a week ago I was out of town for 6 days and when I came
back I decided to do the water change as it was pretty mungy as I left.
At
the time of leaving there were 5 fish (from the original 6) that survived
our mild winter: 3 goldies, 2 skubunkins(?) Now, after doing the water
change I found only 3 goldies, 2 tiny fingerlings (look like imported
trout
from a friends wild pond), and 3 - 3" frogs!
My concern is, what happened to the 2 skubunkins while I was away? No
bodies found at the bottom. Neighbourhood cats? ..nah, the pond sides
are
too steep and no plants we disturbed.

## Large frogs eat fish as do snakes, herons, mud turtles and King Fishers.

Not aware of any raccoons in the area
either, and again nothing disturbed. So, do frogs eat 6" fish?

## Yes.

Are the 2
tiny fingerlings that aggressive? How about the goldies as all 3 of those
survived. There are lots of tall everygreens surrounding the property and
thought there might be predators in those trees. But haven't seen any
eagles or herrons, etc.

## That doesn't mean they're not there when you are away from home or
asleep.

Perhaps they dropped by when they detected no
humans around for the week?

## More than likely.... :-(

Your thoughts?
Thanks.
Jack
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." :-)
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Thanks, Reel :*)

Howabout if I should start by getting rid of the frogs ..perhaps 1 at a
time? They are currently being held in a large container. Eh, they seem
pretty docile although they can usually spot me as I approach the pond and I
see a splash. That's how I discovered them in the first place (last
summer). But if they were after the fish, I would have thought the little
troutmeisters would have been the first to go as I understand the other
fish, fancy goldies, can be rather aggressive. As for birds/raptors, there
are hawks now in the neighbourhood but haven't really been bothered by them.
I just hear them every once in a while. Again, they may have watched for
the yard to be quiet (while I was away).

I hate like heck putting all this work into a pond build only to have to
cover it up with netting. How about using a single fish line fence around
its perimeter? Would this work against most preditors ..especially herons?
I've now repositioned several water plants to more fully cover the shelves
and built a rock and boulder fort on the pond bottom. As well I've got some
overturned nursery pots on the bottom and cut openings in them for refuge.
I placed water plant containers on them to both hold the pots down and to
help raise the water plants. Also, there is a water fall of sorts. It
consists of a huge boulder with a core drilled out of it. Water is
backrouted to the hole and voila! a wash down its face directly into the
pond. I feel this may camoflage the fish a bit by disturbing the water
surface.

Jack


"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"Jack" wrote in message
news:u4dhe.38140$0X6.21406@edtnps90...
Hi.
It's year 2 and just did a full water change on our little 300 gallon
pond.
Found a few surprises when the pool was emptied.
First off, about a week ago I was out of town for 6 days and when I came
back I decided to do the water change as it was pretty mungy as I left.
At
the time of leaving there were 5 fish (from the original 6) that survived
our mild winter: 3 goldies, 2 skubunkins(?) Now, after doing the water
change I found only 3 goldies, 2 tiny fingerlings (look like imported
trout
from a friends wild pond), and 3 - 3" frogs!
My concern is, what happened to the 2 skubunkins while I was away? No
bodies found at the bottom. Neighbourhood cats? ..nah, the pond sides
are
too steep and no plants we disturbed.

## Large frogs eat fish as do snakes, herons, mud turtles and King
Fishers.

Not aware of any raccoons in the area
either, and again nothing disturbed. So, do frogs eat 6" fish?

## Yes.

Are the 2
tiny fingerlings that aggressive? How about the goldies as all 3 of
those
survived. There are lots of tall everygreens surrounding the property
and
thought there might be predators in those trees. But haven't seen any
eagles or herrons, etc.

## That doesn't mean they're not there when you are away from home or
asleep.

Perhaps they dropped by when they detected no
humans around for the week?

## More than likely.... :-(

Your thoughts?
Thanks.
Jack
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." :-)
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Jack" wrote in message
news:0_dhe.38145$0X6.9215@edtnps90...
Thanks, Reel :*)

Howabout if I should start by getting rid of the frogs ..perhaps 1 at a
time?

* I would remove them to a nearby lake but more would show up in no time.
Only the fine black bird nets kept them out of my ponds.

They are currently being held in a large container.

* Please relocate them before they suffer from stress or
dehydration/starvation. Some frogs seem to be very delicate.

Eh, they seem
pretty docile although they can usually spot me as I approach the pond and
I
see a splash. That's how I discovered them in the first place (last
summer). But if they were after the fish, I would have thought the little
troutmeisters would have been the first to go as I understand the other
fish, fancy goldies, can be rather aggressive.

* I've never seen a GF or koi try and defend itself. They're such easy prey
for all the predators out there.

As for birds/raptors, there
are hawks now in the neighbourhood but haven't really been bothered by
them.
I just hear them every once in a while. Again, they may have watched for
the yard to be quiet (while I was away).

* I never did see hawks bother my fish. The only birds we saw take them
were King Fishers and herons.

I hate like heck putting all this work into a pond build only to have to
cover it up with netting.

* I know exactly how you feel. In my case it was either have fishless ponds
or net them. :-(

How about using a single fish line fence around
its perimeter?

* That;s useless against fish eating birds, frogs, snakes and mud turtles.

Would this work against most preditors ..especially herons?

* No, the herons hop right over it.... I tried all those tricks. Heavy
planting around the pond edge helped for awhile but encouraged more snakes
and bullfrogs.

I've now repositioned several water plants to more fully cover the shelves
and built a rock and boulder fort on the pond bottom. As well I've got
some
overturned nursery pots on the bottom and cut openings in them for refuge.

* That will not protect them against frogs, turtles and snakes who will
follow them! Herons will wait for them to emerge and KF are so fast the
fish wont have time to hide.

I placed water plant containers on them to both hold the pots down and to
help raise the water plants. Also, there is a water fall of sorts. It
consists of a huge boulder with a core drilled out of it. Water is
backrouted to the hole and voila! a wash down its face directly into the
pond. I feel this may camoflage the fish a bit by disturbing the water
surface.

* Let us know if any of these things work for you.

--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." :-)
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Well, I took pity on the frogs and released them back into the pond ..along
with the fingerlings. After taking a closer look at the froggies it seems
they are just so small and harmless to not pose much of a problem.
Afterall, they have been there for some time and what? ..wait for me to
leave before chawing on the skubunkins? Doesn't seem reasonable to me. But
what does seem interesting is that I started off with 3 skubunkins and 3
fancy goldies. I lost one skubunkin over winter (very mild) and now the
other 2 have vanished within the last week. Either some predators are very
selective or there is a dispute among the fish and the goldies won. If so,
is it common for skubunkins and goldies to have compatibility problems? And
if it is, I'll just get more goldies.

So I think I'm going to keep an eye on the remainder then restock in a
couple weeks or so (should I get more 6" or just get some 3" and lettem grow
like these guys?). If it looks like there's still trouble then I'll renet.
And on that topic of netting: should the net be suspended in the center
(like a pup tent) or just hovering on a lattice platform with no sides
(it'll keep the divers out). But then I have several tall plants and I
think the netting will interfere with them. I really don't want the plants
to grow through the netting as it will be then impossible to get at the pond
...for filter cleaning, etc.







"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"Jack" wrote in message
news:0_dhe.38145$0X6.9215@edtnps90...
Thanks, Reel :*)

Howabout if I should start by getting rid of the frogs ..perhaps 1 at a
time?

* I would remove them to a nearby lake but more would show up in no time.
Only the fine black bird nets kept them out of my ponds.

They are currently being held in a large container.

* Please relocate them before they suffer from stress or
dehydration/starvation. Some frogs seem to be very delicate.

Eh, they seem
pretty docile although they can usually spot me as I approach the pond
and
I
see a splash. That's how I discovered them in the first place (last
summer). But if they were after the fish, I would have thought the
little
troutmeisters would have been the first to go as I understand the other
fish, fancy goldies, can be rather aggressive.

* I've never seen a GF or koi try and defend itself. They're such easy
prey
for all the predators out there.

As for birds/raptors, there
are hawks now in the neighbourhood but haven't really been bothered by
them.
I just hear them every once in a while. Again, they may have watched for
the yard to be quiet (while I was away).

* I never did see hawks bother my fish. The only birds we saw take them
were King Fishers and herons.

I hate like heck putting all this work into a pond build only to have to
cover it up with netting.

* I know exactly how you feel. In my case it was either have fishless
ponds
or net them. :-(

How about using a single fish line fence around
its perimeter?

* That;s useless against fish eating birds, frogs, snakes and mud turtles.

Would this work against most preditors ..especially herons?

* No, the herons hop right over it.... I tried all those tricks. Heavy
planting around the pond edge helped for awhile but encouraged more snakes
and bullfrogs.

I've now repositioned several water plants to more fully cover the
shelves
and built a rock and boulder fort on the pond bottom. As well I've got
some
overturned nursery pots on the bottom and cut openings in them for
refuge.

* That will not protect them against frogs, turtles and snakes who will
follow them! Herons will wait for them to emerge and KF are so fast the
fish wont have time to hide.

I placed water plant containers on them to both hold the pots down and to
help raise the water plants. Also, there is a water fall of sorts. It
consists of a huge boulder with a core drilled out of it. Water is
backrouted to the hole and voila! a wash down its face directly into the
pond. I feel this may camoflage the fish a bit by disturbing the water
surface.

* Let us know if any of these things work for you.

--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." :-)
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Jack" wrote in message
news:iHehe.38149$0X6.25044@edtnps90...
Well, I took pity on the frogs and released them back into the pond
...along
with the fingerlings. After taking a closer look at the froggies it seems
they are just so small and harmless to not pose much of a problem.

$$ If they're the small green frogs they should now cause a problem. It's
the bullfrogs that caused us so much grief.

Afterall, they have been there for some time and what? ..wait for me to
leave before chawing on the skubunkins? Doesn't seem reasonable to me.
But
what does seem interesting is that I started off with 3 skubunkins and 3
fancy goldies. I lost one skubunkin over winter (very mild) and now the
other 2 have vanished within the last week. Either some predators are
very
selective or there is a dispute among the fish and the goldies won. If
so,
is it common for skubunkins and goldies to have compatibility problems?
And
if it is, I'll just get more goldies.

$$ There are no compatibility problems as BOTH are goldfish. GF come in all
shapes and colors.

So I think I'm going to keep an eye on the remainder then restock in a
couple weeks or so (should I get more 6" or just get some 3" and lettem
grow
like these guys?).

$$ That would be up to whatever size you prefer. I always bought my GF at
about the 2" size. Now I raise my own.

If it looks like there's still trouble then I'll renet.
And on that topic of netting: should the net be suspended in the center
(like a pup tent) or just hovering on a lattice platform with no sides
(it'll keep the divers out).

$$ Mine is suspended on that cheap wire garden fencing you can buy anywhere.
It holds it about 20" above the water. Make sure it's secured where it hits
the ground or snakes will crawl under it.

But then I have several tall plants and I
think the netting will interfere with them. I really don't want the
plants
to grow through the netting as it will be then impossible to get at the
pond
..for filter cleaning, etc.

$$ Nets can be a real pain...... but sometimes there is no other choice.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." :-)
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Don't get rid of the frogs unless you determine
they are bullfrogs.
Bullfrogs have a fold of skin that starts at the
eye and curves around the ear drum. When they
call in warm weather they will sound like
'run,rum,run'.

Different predator deterrents work for different
pond and yard set ups. What might work for
one will not work for another. Experimentation.

Protective measures a
- two different kinds of electric shock fence
the 'FiShock' dog fence and the 'Pond Guardian'
fence.
- the 'Scarecrow' motion activated sprinkler, sometimes
two are needed
- some folks have good luck with fishing line strung around
- bird netting
- humane traps for raccoons
- 'Heron Scarer' decoy for kingfishers

You can look up the various products on
www.froogle.com to find out more information and
compare prices.

good luck!!

kathy :-)
www.blogfromthebog.com

Thanks, Kathy. Gosh, I was attempting to take a picture of one of the frogs
but it was getting dark when I let him (them) back into the pond. It
scampered before I got the shot. But I did'nt notice any of your
distinguishing marks of a bullfrog. These guys were pretty small with
bulging eyes and very timid. Like I said earlier, I think I'll just keep a
better monitor of the pond, replenish with some more fishies and perhaps
string a net over it. Hmm.. I had a net over the pond (stretched taught,
weighted down with perimeter boulders) all winter long (to keep the leaves
out) but every so often the net had collapsed to the surface. I thought it
was a frog trying to get back into the pond, as I caught one hung up on the
top of the net. Anyway, the net was removed a week before I left town ..2
weeks ago. Perhaps this latest absence of a net is a clue, huh. Jack



"kathy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Don't get rid of the frogs unless you determine
they are bullfrogs.
Bullfrogs have a fold of skin that starts at the
eye and curves around the ear drum. When they
call in warm weather they will sound like
'run,rum,run'.

Different predator deterrents work for different
pond and yard set ups. What might work for
one will not work for another. Experimentation.

Protective measures a
- two different kinds of electric shock fence
the 'FiShock' dog fence and the 'Pond Guardian'
fence.
- the 'Scarecrow' motion activated sprinkler, sometimes
two are needed
- some folks have good luck with fishing line strung around
- bird netting
- humane traps for raccoons
- 'Heron Scarer' decoy for kingfishers

You can look up the various products on
www.froogle.com to find out more information and
compare prices.

good luck!!

kathy :-)
www.blogfromthebog.com

Jack wrote:


My concern is, what happened to the 2 skubunkins while I was away?
My bet would be on a King fisher. It makes sense given that you were
away for a while and your yard would be quiet.

Sorry you lost some of your friends.

"Jack" wrote in message
news:u4dhe.38140$0X6.21406@edtnps90...
Hi.
It's year 2 and just did a full water change on our little 300 gallon
pond.
Found a few surprises when the pool was emptied.
First off, about a week ago I was out of town for 6 days and when I came
back I decided to do the water change as it was pretty mungy as I left.
At
the time of leaving there were 5 fish (from the original 6) that survived
our mild winter: 3 goldies, 2 skubunkins(?) Now, after doing the water
change I found only 3 goldies, 2 tiny fingerlings (look like imported
trout
from a friends wild pond), and 3 - 3" frogs!
My concern is, what happened to the 2 skubunkins while I was away? No
bodies found at the bottom. Neighbourhood cats? ..nah, the pond sides
are
too steep and no plants we disturbed. Not aware of any raccoons in the
area
either, and again nothing disturbed. So, do frogs eat 6" fish? Are the 2
tiny fingerlings that aggressive? How about the goldies as all 3 of those
survived. There are lots of tall everygreens surrounding the property and
thought there might be predators in those trees. But haven't seen any
eagles or herrons, etc. Perhaps they dropped by when they detected no
humans around for the week?

Your thoughts?
Thanks.
Jack


Not sure what would have happened to your fish, but 3" frogs cannot eat a
6" fish. I have had female fish die from the effects of spawning and their
floating bodies removed from the pond by "something" (probably a raccoon).
Do you know what sort of frogs you have? Unless they're bullfrogs they
probably won't get so big you have to worry about them eating all your fish.

Jacqui