Our Cichlids - their short tragic history

We entered the hobby a few weeks back, and have a small 5 gal
aquarium running, apparently well, and decided to up the ante.

Well, we setup a planted aquarium round about christmas, and
added a few tetras, the ammonia spike happened, then subsided.
We read about bio-spira. So we rushed out, and got some, added
it in, and simultaneously added 3 Bolivian Butterfly Ram
cichlids (papilliochromis altispinosa).

THey turned out to be wonderful fish, and one soon established
himself to be top-boss. Recently, they started rearranging the
plants and rocks.

This morning, the nitrite spiked - the ammonia was still high,
though about 1 ppm. We did two water changes today, and added
some salt in the evening.

Unfortunately, the cichlids, and other fishes, were seen to be
gasping at the edges, and one went belly-up We thought a lot
about what to do, and finally transferred them to a bucket of
water. As I write, two are dead, and disposed, and one is
swimming round the bucket.

I would like some advice as to how this could have been
avoided, and what should we do next. Are the other fishes
(tetras and corys) going to survive? Will the water cycle play
itself out now and when will it be safe to reintroduce fishes?
Whatever happened to the biospira?

In gloom,
aacool
P.S. A pic of the cichlids is attached

aacool wrote:


Well, we setup a planted aquarium round about christmas, and
added a few tetras, the ammonia spike happened, then subsided.
We read about bio-spira. So we rushed out, and got some, added
it in, and simultaneously added 3 Bolivian Butterfly Ram
cichlids (papilliochromis altispinosa).

THey turned out to be wonderful fish, and one soon established
himself to be top-boss. Recently, they started rearranging the
plants and rocks.

This morning, the nitrite spiked - the ammonia was still high,
though about 1 ppm. We did two water changes today, and added
some salt in the evening.

Unfortunately, the cichlids, and other fishes, were seen to be
gasping at the edges, and one went belly-up We thought a lot
about what to do, and finally transferred them to a bucket of
water. As I write, two are dead, and disposed, and one is
swimming round the bucket.

I would like some advice as to how this could have been
avoided, and what should we do next. Are the other fishes
(tetras and corys) going to survive? Will the water cycle play
itself out now and when will it be safe to reintroduce fishes?
Whatever happened to the biospira?


Too many fish too soon. If I understand your message, this was your
second tank? How big? I would not have added the cichlids until the
ammonia and nitrite were 0 and the nitrate was around 20.

Len wrote in :



aacool wrote:


Well, we setup a planted aquarium round about christmas,
and
added a few tetras, the ammonia spike happened, then
subsided.
We read about bio-spira. So we rushed out, and got some,
added
it in, and simultaneously added 3 Bolivian Butterfly Ram
cichlids (papilliochromis altispinosa).

THey turned out to be wonderful fish, and one soon
established
himself to be top-boss. Recently, they started rearranging
the
plants and rocks.

This morning, the nitrite spiked - the ammonia was still
high,
though about 1 ppm. We did two water changes today, and
added
some salt in the evening.

Unfortunately, the cichlids, and other fishes, were seen to
be
gasping at the edges, and one went belly-up We thought a
lot
about what to do, and finally transferred them to a bucket
of
water. As I write, two are dead, and disposed, and one is
swimming round the bucket.

I would like some advice as to how this could have been
avoided, and what should we do next. Are the other fishes
(tetras and corys) going to survive? Will the water cycle
play
itself out now and when will it be safe to reintroduce
fishes?
Whatever happened to the biospira?


Too many fish too soon. If I understand your message, this
was your
second tank? How big? I would not have added the cichlids
until the
ammonia and nitrite were 0 and the nitrate was around 20.


Well, I thought the biospira would take care of the water
cycle - ref
www.marineland.com - biospira is a live-bacteria that's
"supposed" to
introduce nitrifying bacteria

But, you're right, next time, we wait for the cycle to
complete

"aacool" wrote in message
...
Len wrote in :



Well, I thought the biospira would take care of the water
cycle - ref
www.marineland.com - biospira is a live-bacteria that's
"supposed" to
introduce nitrifying bacteria

But, you're right, next time, we wait for the cycle to
complete


it may introduce nitrifying bacteria which may help cycle the tank a bit
quicker however many doubt these claims. Many of us had the same problem
when we got started and this usually leads to a lot of research which should
be done before not after however like I say many have done the same thing.
Water changes only delay the final cycling process. Start with a couple of
fish or do a fishless cycle with ammonia and don't get discouraged.

Rick

BioSpira will reduce the cycle time to a few _days_ rather than a few
weeks. The advice to wait is good.
HTH,
Dennis

aacool wrote:
Len wrote in :



aacool wrote:



Well, we setup a planted aquarium round about christmas,

and

added a few tetras, the ammonia spike happened, then

subsided.

We read about bio-spira. So we rushed out, and got some,

added

it in, and simultaneously added 3 Bolivian Butterfly Ram
cichlids (papilliochromis altispinosa).

THey turned out to be wonderful fish, and one soon

established

himself to be top-boss. Recently, they started rearranging

the

plants and rocks.

This morning, the nitrite spiked - the ammonia was still

high,

though about 1 ppm. We did two water changes today, and

added

some salt in the evening.

Unfortunately, the cichlids, and other fishes, were seen to

be

gasping at the edges, and one went belly-up We thought a

lot

about what to do, and finally transferred them to a bucket

of

water. As I write, two are dead, and disposed, and one is
swimming round the bucket.

I would like some advice as to how this could have been
avoided, and what should we do next. Are the other fishes
(tetras and corys) going to survive? Will the water cycle

play

itself out now and when will it be safe to reintroduce

fishes?

Whatever happened to the biospira?


Too many fish too soon. If I understand your message, this

was your

second tank? How big? I would not have added the cichlids

until the

ammonia and nitrite were 0 and the nitrate was around 20.



Well, I thought the biospira would take care of the water
cycle - ref
www.marineland.com - biospira is a live-bacteria that's
"supposed" to
introduce nitrifying bacteria

But, you're right, next time, we wait for the cycle to
complete

I'm sorry to hear of your tragic start into cichlid keeping. Bio-spira is a
great product and has saved many people starting new tanks. Where it does add
the bacteria to start a colony, it doesn't perform miracles. Even in a fully
cycled tank, which your tank was not yet fully cycled, adding too many fish at
once can cause ammonia and nitrites to spike. Other things that may have
affected your fish in addition to the deadly ammonia and nitrites may be pH
levels, abrupt changes in water temp, etc. Although you don't mention the size
of your new tank, it sounds like it's a smaller tank. Small tanks are very
difficult to maintain water parameters in. They're easily overloaded and any
changes to the water could drastically change the parameters of the entire tank.
I could top off one of my larger tanks with a gallon of ice cold water from the
tap and the temperature won't drop in the tank more than a degree. Do this in a
ten gallon tank, and you may drop the temperature ten degrees.
To make suggestions to avoid this type of disappointment in the future,
we'll need to know what size the tank, what type of filtration, and heating the
tank has and what the parameters of your water is out of the tap.
I hope you're not too discouraged.
AmateurCichlids
www.amateurcichlids.com

Welcome to the hobby... Great advice is shared here... Cycling chemicals,
as pointed help a little, but they are the the greatest wonder.. I suggest,
to everyone, get the largest tank you can, water parameters stay very
consistant, and with that thier are no suprises, like a sudden re cycle
stressing out the fish and killing them off.. I am going to suggest what
also has been suggested.. Read as much material you can, as this will help
with your success in keeping, raising and enjoying the hobby. Sometimes this
seems over whelming at first when you start to do some reading ( almost like
getting a biology/science degree ). Fortuanatly now there is a lot of
information out there, and a lot of good informitive web sites.. I like the
thekrib.com ... It has a lot of resources pertaining to fish keeping, tank
cycling etc... Its a larger site and can be boring at times, but
informitive..

Happy fish keeping...

Tim...
"Amateur" wrote in message
...
I'm sorry to hear of your tragic start into cichlid keeping. Bio-spira
is a
great product and has saved many people starting new tanks. Where it does
add
the bacteria to start a colony, it doesn't perform miracles. Even in a
fully
cycled tank, which your tank was not yet fully cycled, adding too many
fish at
once can cause ammonia and nitrites to spike. Other things that may have
affected your fish in addition to the deadly ammonia and nitrites may be
pH
levels, abrupt changes in water temp, etc. Although you don't mention the
size
of your new tank, it sounds like it's a smaller tank. Small tanks are very
difficult to maintain water parameters in. They're easily overloaded and
any
changes to the water could drastically change the parameters of the entire
tank.
I could top off one of my larger tanks with a gallon of ice cold water
from the
tap and the temperature won't drop in the tank more than a degree. Do this
in a
ten gallon tank, and you may drop the temperature ten degrees.
To make suggestions to avoid this type of disappointment in the
future,
we'll need to know what size the tank, what type of filtration, and
heating the
tank has and what the parameters of your water is out of the tap.
I hope you're not too discouraged.
AmateurCichlids
www.amateurcichlids.com

"Amateur" wrote in
:

I'm sorry to hear of your tragic start into cichlid keeping.
Bio-spira is a
great product and has saved many people starting new tanks. Where it
does add the bacteria to start a colony, it doesn't perform miracles.
Even in a fully cycled tank, which your tank was not yet fully cycled,
adding too many fish at once can cause ammonia and nitrites to spike.
Other things that may have affected your fish in addition to the
deadly ammonia and nitrites may be pH levels, abrupt changes in water
temp, etc. Although you don't mention the size of your new tank, it
sounds like it's a smaller tank. Small tanks are very difficult to
maintain water parameters in. They're easily overloaded and any
changes to the water could drastically change the parameters of the
entire tank. I could top off one of my larger tanks with a gallon of
ice cold water from the tap and the temperature won't drop in the tank
more than a degree. Do this in a ten gallon tank, and you may drop the
temperature ten degrees.
To make suggestions to avoid this type of disappointment in the
future,
we'll need to know what size the tank, what type of filtration, and
heating the tank has and what the parameters of your water is out of
the tap. I hope you're not too discouraged.
AmateurCichlids
www.amateurcichlids.com



We're not discouraged - as a matter of fact, we're planning on starting a
new 25g tank (the other one is 10g) and ONCE the cycle is complete,
having a cichlids-only tank. Will ask your advice on that later.

As for the 10g - it has a Whisper filter, the regular clip-on heater. The
water is rather hard, slightly acidic. There are plants, and a few
tetras. We moved our betta in now that the cycle is complete.

Thanks

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:01:22 GMT, aacool wrote:

We entered the hobby a few weeks back, and have a small 5 gal
aquarium running, apparently well, and decided to up the ante.

Well, we setup a planted aquarium round about christmas, and
added a few tetras, the ammonia spike happened, then subsided.
We read about bio-spira. So we rushed out, and got some, added
it in, and simultaneously added 3 Bolivian Butterfly Ram
cichlids (papilliochromis altispinosa).

THey turned out to be wonderful fish, and one soon established
himself to be top-boss. Recently, they started rearranging the
plants and rocks.

This morning, the nitrite spiked - the ammonia was still high,
though about 1 ppm. We did two water changes today, and added
some salt in the evening.

Unfortunately, the cichlids, and other fishes, were seen to be
gasping at the edges, and one went belly-up We thought a lot
about what to do, and finally transferred them to a bucket of
water. As I write, two are dead, and disposed, and one is
swimming round the bucket.

I would like some advice as to how this could have been
avoided, and what should we do next. Are the other fishes
(tetras and corys) going to survive? Will the water cycle play
itself out now and when will it be safe to reintroduce fishes?
Whatever happened to the biospira?

In gloom,
aacool
P.S. A pic of the cichlids is attached

--------------------------------

OK - so your fish are hurting - ammonia spiking - you're not quite
sure what is happening and you:

So we rushed out, and got some, added
it in, and simultaneously added 3 Bolivian Butterfly Ram
cichlids

And you're asking for advice to prevent this. Look long and hard in
the mirror at stupid. Did you have to have the fish that day? See,
fish are alive - it's not like running out to Wal-Mart and buying a
new toaster on Saturday to make your miserable life a little more
bearable. If your car was belching all kinds of black smoke from the
tailpipe - you would throw some STP oil treatment in because you
heard it took care of engine problems - then go on a 3000 mile trip?
No, cause it's your damn life - you'd take it to a mechanic before you
went anywhere far. Well, I would suggest to you that you show the
same courtesy to other living beings. You can't wait a few days to
get a few fish - then you need to grow up - not have a fish tank.

This isn't a flame. I'm hoping you read this and reach down real
deep, and - maybe start putting the blame where it belongs.

"Ken Thomas" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 03:01:22 GMT, aacool wrote:

We entered the hobby a few weeks back, and have a small 5 gal
aquarium running, apparently well, and decided to up the ante.

Well, we setup a planted aquarium round about christmas, and
added a few tetras, the ammonia spike happened, then subsided.
We read about bio-spira. So we rushed out, and got some, added
it in, and simultaneously added 3 Bolivian Butterfly Ram
cichlids (papilliochromis altispinosa).

THey turned out to be wonderful fish, and one soon established
himself to be top-boss. Recently, they started rearranging the
plants and rocks.

This morning, the nitrite spiked - the ammonia was still high,
though about 1 ppm. We did two water changes today, and added
some salt in the evening.

Unfortunately, the cichlids, and other fishes, were seen to be
gasping at the edges, and one went belly-up We thought a lot
about what to do, and finally transferred them to a bucket of
water. As I write, two are dead, and disposed, and one is
swimming round the bucket.

I would like some advice as to how this could have been
avoided, and what should we do next. Are the other fishes
(tetras and corys) going to survive? Will the water cycle play
itself out now and when will it be safe to reintroduce fishes?
Whatever happened to the biospira?

In gloom,
aacool
P.S. A pic of the cichlids is attached

--------------------------------

OK - so your fish are hurting - ammonia spiking - you're not quite
sure what is happening and you:

So we rushed out, and got some, added
it in, and simultaneously added 3 Bolivian Butterfly Ram
cichlids

And you're asking for advice to prevent this. Look long and hard in
the mirror at stupid. Did you have to have the fish that day? See,
fish are alive - it's not like running out to Wal-Mart and buying a
new toaster on Saturday to make your miserable life a little more
bearable. If your car was belching all kinds of black smoke from the
tailpipe - you would throw some STP oil treatment in because you
heard it took care of engine problems - then go on a 3000 mile trip?
No, cause it's your damn life - you'd take it to a mechanic before you
went anywhere far. Well, I would suggest to you that you show the
same courtesy to other living beings. You can't wait a few days to
get a few fish - then you need to grow up - not have a fish tank.

This isn't a flame. I'm hoping you read this and reach down real
deep, and - maybe start putting the blame where it belongs.

As far as adding the salt, I don't think adding salt during the cycling is
going to help matters much eithier. I believe it makes matters worse if I
remeber correctly. What do some of our local chemists think??

Tim...