Modern thinking on keeping goldfish?

On Thu, 6 Apr 2006 17:24:56 -0500, Koi-Lo wrote in another thread:
And of all things contains 3 GF which would soon kill themselves with
ammonia in something that small.

That reminded me...

My brother wants to get a fishtank. I recommended a tank like my
Juwel Rekord 70 which I found a great "starter" tank, not too
big or small, all neat and self contained equipment and easy to
use. He is 25 but has learning difficulties and so he lives with
my mother who would be supervising. I said I thought it would be
fine for him to have a tank, as long as he didn't get tempted to
overfeed.

But he wants to keep goldfish and not tropicals So I trotted
out the usual "5 gallons of water for 1 inch of goldfish...
tropicals are prettier and you can have more of them..." etc and
my mother simply said "well, you used to have six goldfish in a
small tank in your room and they lived for years. Do they still
have foam filters?"

And true enough I did have a tank in my room, later my brother's,
as a child. It was about 2 foot on a metal stand, and held 6 fish,
such as comet, shubunkin, black moor, oranda, and two I've forgotten.
I think one started as a fairground fish in a bag. Don't think we
knew about cycling either.

They survived everything, including when the ceiling fell into
the tank - one was crushed and died, one flipped out of the tank
but was ok when put back in(!) and the others were all fine although
they can't have liked having a chunk of plaster in there for hours.
The tank had a small air driven filter with a round sponge in it.
There was a small layer of gravel on the bottom. They ate flake daily.
And there was an algae magnet to clean with. And that was the lot.
My mother did clean the tank out but not that often, maybe once
a month or something.

Those fish lived for years. So she won't listen to me saying that
goldfish don't belong in small tanks in big numbers, yaddayadda.
And to be fair she can claim experience of goldfish, I have none!

So... am I scaremongering? Or going too far in promoting perfect
conditions? Or is there some reason that 20 years later, goldfish
can't cope in small amounts of water? Are they less hardy now?

I'm not meaning to question modern thinking, but I would like to
know what I should say to answer my mother or advise my brother.

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:35:11 +0000 (UTC), (Flash
Wilson) wrote:

On Thu, 6 Apr 2006 17:24:56 -0500, Koi-Lo wrote in another thread:
And of all things contains 3 GF which would soon kill themselves with
ammonia in something that small.

That reminded me...

My brother wants to get a fishtank. I recommended a tank like my
Juwel Rekord 70 which I found a great "starter" tank, not too
big or small, all neat and self contained equipment and easy to
use. He is 25 but has learning difficulties and so he lives with
my mother who would be supervising. I said I thought it would be
fine for him to have a tank, as long as he didn't get tempted to
overfeed.

But he wants to keep goldfish and not tropicals So I trotted
out the usual "5 gallons of water for 1 inch of goldfish...
tropicals are prettier and you can have more of them..." etc and
my mother simply said "well, you used to have six goldfish in a
small tank in your room and they lived for years. Do they still
have foam filters?"

And true enough I did have a tank in my room, later my brother's,
as a child. It was about 2 foot on a metal stand, and held 6 fish,
such as comet, shubunkin, black moor, oranda, and two I've forgotten.
I think one started as a fairground fish in a bag. Don't think we
knew about cycling either.

They survived everything, including when the ceiling fell into
the tank - one was crushed and died, one flipped out of the tank
but was ok when put back in(!) and the others were all fine although
they can't have liked having a chunk of plaster in there for hours.
The tank had a small air driven filter with a round sponge in it.
There was a small layer of gravel on the bottom. They ate flake daily.
And there was an algae magnet to clean with. And that was the lot.
My mother did clean the tank out but not that often, maybe once
a month or something.

Those fish lived for years. So she won't listen to me saying that
goldfish don't belong in small tanks in big numbers, yaddayadda.
And to be fair she can claim experience of goldfish, I have none!

So... am I scaremongering? Or going too far in promoting perfect
conditions? Or is there some reason that 20 years later, goldfish
can't cope in small amounts of water? Are they less hardy now?

I'm not meaning to question modern thinking, but I would like to
know what I should say to answer my mother or advise my brother.

You didn't say how big the tank is, and I didn't look it up, but
regarding your brother, I've spent a lot of time with people with
special learning problems and I've never met a person that I couldn't
teach about kindness to animals - pet the puppy gently, etc. My guess
is that your brother might be easier to teach than your mother. If
only two goldfish can thrive in the tank, then two it should be. Maybe
your brother is not as interested in "how many" fish, but in having
some pet fish that he can take care of. I would try, as much as safely
possible, to help your brother express his choices and try to go with
it, rather than telling him what to do. You've known him all his life,
you know what I'm talking about.

-- Mister Gardener

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 11:06:05 -0400, Mister Gardener
wrote:
You didn't say how big the tank is, and I didn't look it up, but

Oh sorry - I was recommending a 70l (2 foot).

regarding your brother, I've spent a lot of time with people with
special learning problems and I've never met a person that I couldn't
teach about kindness to animals - pet the puppy gently, etc. My guess

I know what you mean, but in the past he had had to be told that
hugging the dog tightly around the neck is a bad idea, and not to
be left alone with her etc. I imagine he might overfeed out of
kindness, but that would quickly turn into a lesson and he would
be ok with the replacements (!)

is that your brother might be easier to teach than your mother. If

Oh yes, I'm with you on that. But she'd be the one in charge.
They are both 150 miles from me.

only two goldfish can thrive in the tank, then two it should be. Maybe

Right - but my point really was "my mother thinks lots of fish
would be fine in the tank, modern thinking is that only a few
would be suited" and asking for how to persuade her. We might think
that only two would thrive. They might not listen, buy ten, lose
their fish and think the whole thing was a mistake and a waste
of time and money. So I'd like to know what the difference is
between the old tank we used to have 6 fish and a tiny filter in,
and fish 20 years later in a similar size tank with better filtration.
So I can persuade my mother, and they get it right from the start!

your brother is not as interested in "how many" fish, but in having
some pet fish that he can take care of. I would try, as much as safely

True, but without guidance he might decide he likes, say, 10
fish of different types and sizes. I doubt the shop would stop him.
It would be nice to be able to offer advice *and have a reason
for what I am saying, so it is listened to* if I can!

possible, to help your brother express his choices and try to go with
it, rather than telling him what to do.

Absolutely! And all I could do at this distance is offer advice
anyway But at the moment I don't know how to offer it!

Does that make sense?

Anyway - thanks very much for your reply, cheers!

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

Flash Wilson wrote:
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 11:06:05 -0400, Mister Gardener
wrote:

You didn't say how big the tank is, and I didn't look it up, but


Oh sorry - I was recommending a 70l (2 foot).


regarding your brother, I've spent a lot of time with people with
special learning problems and I've never met a person that I couldn't
teach about kindness to animals - pet the puppy gently, etc. My guess


I know what you mean, but in the past he had had to be told that
hugging the dog tightly around the neck is a bad idea, and not to
be left alone with her etc. I imagine he might overfeed out of
kindness, but that would quickly turn into a lesson and he would
be ok with the replacements (!)


is that your brother might be easier to teach than your mother. If


Oh yes, I'm with you on that. But she'd be the one in charge.
They are both 150 miles from me.


only two goldfish can thrive in the tank, then two it should be. Maybe


Right - but my point really was "my mother thinks lots of fish
would be fine in the tank, modern thinking is that only a few
would be suited" and asking for how to persuade her. We might think
that only two would thrive. They might not listen, buy ten, lose
their fish and think the whole thing was a mistake and a waste
of time and money. So I'd like to know what the difference is
between the old tank we used to have 6 fish and a tiny filter in,
and fish 20 years later in a similar size tank with better filtration.
So I can persuade my mother, and they get it right from the start!


your brother is not as interested in "how many" fish, but in having
some pet fish that he can take care of. I would try, as much as safely


True, but without guidance he might decide he likes, say, 10
fish of different types and sizes. I doubt the shop would stop him.
It would be nice to be able to offer advice *and have a reason
for what I am saying, so it is listened to* if I can!


possible, to help your brother express his choices and try to go with
it, rather than telling him what to do.


Absolutely! And all I could do at this distance is offer advice
anyway But at the moment I don't know how to offer it!

Does that make sense?

Anyway - thanks very much for your reply, cheers!

Hi Flash,

A lot of the places I go to (mainly MA) have leaflets giving information
on fish care...I can't say for sure but they might have something on
goldfish stocking levels - so this type of thing could be a free source
of info - I would guess other chains do this as well - if you find
anyway on one of your trips to an LFS this might be a possibility to
send to your Mother. I would also do some searches on google for
goldfish stocking levels and print out the information and send that to
her as well...this way you have documentation to back up what you are
telling her.

It is a tricky one, I know. My mother let slip that we used to have
goldfish in bowls when I was a youngster to my oldest who hankers from
time to time to have a goldfish in a bowl - he would never consider a
tank and thinks that I am mean refusing him a bowl...

Gill

"Flash Wilson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 Apr 2006 17:24:56 -0500, Koi-Lo wrote in another thread:
And of all things contains 3 GF which would soon kill themselves with
ammonia in something that small.

That reminded me...

My brother wants to get a fishtank. I recommended a tank like my
Juwel Rekord 70 which I found a great "starter" tank, not too
big or small, all neat and self contained equipment and easy to
use. He is 25 but has learning difficulties and so he lives with
my mother who would be supervising. I said I thought it would be
fine for him to have a tank, as long as he didn't get tempted to
overfeed.

But he wants to keep goldfish and not tropicals So I trotted
out the usual "5 gallons of water for 1 inch of goldfish...
tropicals are prettier and you can have more of them..." etc and
my mother simply said "well, you used to have six goldfish in a
small tank in your room and they lived for years. Do they still
have foam filters?"

And true enough I did have a tank in my room, later my brother's,
as a child. It was about 2 foot on a metal stand, and held 6 fish,
such as comet, shubunkin, black moor, oranda, and two I've forgotten.
I think one started as a fairground fish in a bag. Don't think we
knew about cycling either.

They survived everything, including when the ceiling fell into
the tank - one was crushed and died, one flipped out of the tank
but was ok when put back in(!) and the others were all fine although
they can't have liked having a chunk of plaster in there for hours.
The tank had a small air driven filter with a round sponge in it.
There was a small layer of gravel on the bottom. They ate flake daily.
And there was an algae magnet to clean with. And that was the lot.
My mother did clean the tank out but not that often, maybe once
a month or something.

Those fish lived for years. So she won't listen to me saying that
goldfish don't belong in small tanks in big numbers, yaddayadda.
And to be fair she can claim experience of goldfish, I have none!

So... am I scaremongering? Or going too far in promoting perfect
conditions? Or is there some reason that 20 years later, goldfish
can't cope in small amounts of water? Are they less hardy now?

I'm not meaning to question modern thinking, but I would like to
know what I should say to answer my mother or advise my brother.

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

I think that is 18-20 us gl? Is that right......
I don't think him having a learning disability should have much impact, the
janitor at my sons school is the one who helps me take care of tanks up
there, he also has a learning disability, he came in one day while I was
doing them and ask to help, I showed him what I do twice a week (kids &
tanks, I find strange things in there on occasion) but many times when Luke
was sick and I could not make it he did it for me and he did a great job,
hell I think better then me sometimes because he wants to do it right, and
me I usually have 10 kids hanging on me at the time.
Any way if it is say 20 gl, I just would not put a lot of goldfish in it,
you know regardless of what everyone else says I do think fish may not be as
strong as they used to be because of breeding or all the meds getting used
or a whole host of other reasons. I have 6 or 7 little goldfish different
kinds red caps, black moor's, they are all pretty young and I will move them
to the bigger thank at some point, but they are in a 40 gl long now and it
does get dirty I have to vacuum more often now, it would be better if they
were in a bigger tank and as small as they are and as much room as they
have, they still make a lot of waste, more then any other fish I have other
then the pl*co, now he can give them a run for their money, I have thought
about getting some of those fish every one talks about to clean up at the
bottom of the tank, maybe you can have him get some of those fish also, I
have a couple snails in mine. But as long as I take the time to vacuum it is
a nice tank to have, they are fun to watch and very funny sometimes, you
might just want to tell your mom if they get to many for that size, she will
spend a lot of time cleaning it instead of enjoying it. One other thing I
have chose to do after a lot of reading is not using a lot of gravel, I have
enough to hold down plants but that's is it a thin cover, goldfish eat off
the bottom of the tank a lot, food gets stuck in the gravel and goes bad,
they come a long and eat it and get sick, so its better to have less cover
so you can get the junk out.
nik
tell your brother good luck with the tank
i seen the pic of the type its nice

Flash Wilson wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2006 17:24:56 -0500, Koi-Lo wrote in another thread:

And of all things contains 3 GF which would soon kill themselves with
ammonia in something that small.


That reminded me...

My brother wants to get a fishtank. I recommended a tank like my
Juwel Rekord 70 which I found a great "starter" tank, not too
big or small, all neat and self contained equipment and easy to
use. He is 25 but has learning difficulties and so he lives with
my mother who would be supervising. I said I thought it would be
fine for him to have a tank, as long as he didn't get tempted to
overfeed.

But he wants to keep goldfish and not tropicals So I trotted
out the usual "5 gallons of water for 1 inch of goldfish...
tropicals are prettier and you can have more of them..." etc and
my mother simply said "well, you used to have six goldfish in a
small tank in your room and they lived for years. Do they still
have foam filters?"


I have two "comet" goldfish in a 2-foot tank (nominal 15 gallon: 60
litres) with strong Eclipse Biowheel filtration. The fish are doing ok
but quite crowded, because they've grown to body length of about 5
inches (~ 12cm) with additional length for fins. The fish are 6 years
old. I had 3 goldfish in there at first but one died after a year -
probably from overcrowding.

That's the trouble with goldfish - they grow big and need lots of room.

So you're right, perhaps 2 goldfish are all you have room for. Easy
tropical fish may be more fun for your brother and mother. They could
keep quite a few, starting with 2 or 3 zebra danios to cycle the
aquarium for a month.

foam filters. Yes they're still available, and they're very good
biological filters.

"Flash Wilson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 6 Apr 2006 17:24:56 -0500, Koi-Lo wrote in another thread:
And of all things contains 3 GF which would soon kill themselves with
ammonia in something that small.

That reminded me...

My brother wants to get a fishtank. I recommended a tank like my
Juwel Rekord 70 which I found a great "starter" tank, not too
big or small, all neat and self contained equipment and easy to
use. He is 25 but has learning difficulties and so he lives with
my mother who would be supervising. I said I thought it would be
fine for him to have a tank, as long as he didn't get tempted to
overfeed.

But he wants to keep goldfish and not tropicals So I trotted
out the usual "5 gallons of water for 1 inch of goldfish...
tropicals are prettier and you can have more of them..." etc and
my mother simply said "well, you used to have six goldfish in a
small tank in your room and they lived for years. Do they still
have foam filters?"

And true enough I did have a tank in my room, later my brother's,
as a child. It was about 2 foot on a metal stand, and held 6 fish,
such as comet, shubunkin, black moor, oranda, and two I've forgotten.
I think one started as a fairground fish in a bag. Don't think we
knew about cycling either.

They survived everything, including when the ceiling fell into
the tank - one was crushed and died, one flipped out of the tank
but was ok when put back in(!) and the others were all fine although
they can't have liked having a chunk of plaster in there for hours.
The tank had a small air driven filter with a round sponge in it.
There was a small layer of gravel on the bottom. They ate flake daily.
And there was an algae magnet to clean with. And that was the lot.
My mother did clean the tank out but not that often, maybe once
a month or something.

Those fish lived for years. So she won't listen to me saying that
goldfish don't belong in small tanks in big numbers, yaddayadda.
And to be fair she can claim experience of goldfish, I have none!

So... am I scaremongering? Or going too far in promoting perfect
conditions? Or is there some reason that 20 years later, goldfish
can't cope in small amounts of water? Are they less hardy now?

I'm not meaning to question modern thinking, but I would like to
know what I should say to answer my mother or advise my brother.

--
Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org

I'd keep it simple. Tell her that less fish (and/or bigger tank) means:
i) it's easier for her to maintain
ii) it's harder for you brother to mess it up
iii) it's more comfortable for the fish (previous survival doesn't mean they
were comfortable)
jmo, good luck
--
www.NetMax.tk