Cycling woes

Hello everybody. I am setting up a new tank and my cycle doesn't seem to be
going so well. It's just a 10 gal tank and I put fish (2 small common
goldfish and a slightly bigger fantail) in it two weeks ago today (Tuesday).
The ammonia levels continue to rise, at last check last night was around 1.0
ppm (probably higher now). I did a partial water change on Saturday
(approx. 25%) and will do another 10-15% change tonight to try to help the
poor guys. My tank averages about 70 degrees, perhaps dropping a couple of
degrees at night.

I am not a seasoned veteran of tank set up yet but in my limited past
experience it has not taken this long for the ammonia level to drop. What
could be wrong? I have been putting in Hagen Cycle, a highly controversial
decision, I know. Should I continue regular small water changes to dilute
the ammonia or will fresh water all the time stress the fish as much as the
ammonia? I've already pretty much conceded that the fish will die, they
really don't look good (very lathargic, hiding in my decorations). I have
reduced feeding to a tiny pinch every other day so I know there is none
being wasted. Is this just a matter of me being impatient? The only real
difference I can think of between this situation and my past experience is
that the temperature may have been slightly warmer in my other tank setup -
I can't remember exactly, although I have never had a heated tank so the
difference would be minimal.

I would also like to extend my thanks to everyone who is so active on here.
Most often I have been able to answer my questions without posting just by
reading over past discussions. Hopefully someday I will be an expert and
able to offer my help to others in this group!

Hi David,

I'm new here but I'm going to jump right in. Your problem is you
strarted with to many fish. A ten gallon tank is small and goldfish
produce a lot of waste. One gold fish would have been more appropriate.


Here are some tips for cycling your tank.

1. Be patient! It can sometimes take up to 8 weeks for a tank to cycle.
2. Do not overfeed. Looks like your already on the right track here.
3. Do NOT do any water changes until the tank is fully cycled.

One last comment, goldfish are really a hit of miss. This includes the
fancy tails as well as the common feeder. Sometime they live forever,
sometimes they die right off.

David McDermott wrote:
Hello everybody. I am setting up a new tank and my cycle doesn't seem to be
going so well. It's just a 10 gal tank and I put fish (2 small common
goldfish and a slightly bigger fantail) in it two weeks ago today (Tuesday).
The ammonia levels continue to rise, at last check last night was around 1.0
ppm (probably higher now). I did a partial water change on Saturday
(approx. 25%) and will do another 10-15% change tonight to try to help the
poor guys. My tank averages about 70 degrees, perhaps dropping a couple of
degrees at night.

I am not a seasoned veteran of tank set up yet but in my limited past
experience it has not taken this long for the ammonia level to drop. What
could be wrong? I have been putting in Hagen Cycle, a highly controversial
decision, I know. Should I continue regular small water changes to dilute
the ammonia or will fresh water all the time stress the fish as much as the
ammonia? I've already pretty much conceded that the fish will die, they
really don't look good (very lathargic, hiding in my decorations). I have
reduced feeding to a tiny pinch every other day so I know there is none
being wasted. Is this just a matter of me being impatient? The only real
difference I can think of between this situation and my past experience is
that the temperature may have been slightly warmer in my other tank setup -
I can't remember exactly, although I have never had a heated tank so the
difference would be minimal.

I would also like to extend my thanks to everyone who is so active on here.
Most often I have been able to answer my questions without posting just by
reading over past discussions. Hopefully someday I will be an expert and
able to offer my help to others in this group!


The ammonia levels can take up to 20 days to peak and drop off. Then you
have the nitrite level to contend with. They usually start to peak after
the ammonia drops off, so from 20 - 40 days you get the peak and drop
for nitrites. Here's a link to a rather brief, but good explanation:
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html

David McDermott wrote:
Hello everybody. I am setting up a new tank and my cycle doesn't seem to be
going so well. It's just a 10 gal tank and I put fish (2 small common
goldfish and a slightly bigger fantail) in it two weeks ago today (Tuesday).
The ammonia levels continue to rise, at last check last night was around 1.0
ppm (probably higher now). I did a partial water change on Saturday
(approx. 25%) and will do another 10-15% change tonight to try to help the
poor guys. My tank averages about 70 degrees, perhaps dropping a couple of
degrees at night.

I am not a seasoned veteran of tank set up yet but in my limited past
experience it has not taken this long for the ammonia level to drop. What
could be wrong? I have been putting in Hagen Cycle, a highly controversial
decision, I know. Should I continue regular small water changes to dilute
the ammonia or will fresh water all the time stress the fish as much as the
ammonia? I've already pretty much conceded that the fish will die, they
really don't look good (very lathargic, hiding in my decorations). I have
reduced feeding to a tiny pinch every other day so I know there is none
being wasted. Is this just a matter of me being impatient? The only real
difference I can think of between this situation and my past experience is
that the temperature may have been slightly warmer in my other tank setup -
I can't remember exactly, although I have never had a heated tank so the
difference would be minimal.

I would also like to extend my thanks to everyone who is so active on here.
Most often I have been able to answer my questions without posting just by
reading over past discussions. Hopefully someday I will be an expert and
able to offer my help to others in this group!

Have you tried to cycle with goldfish before? You have too many
goldfish to cycle a 10 gallon tank. (Or even to live there once they
start growing well.) I would have cycled with only one goldfish because
they put out so much ammonia and waste. Heat does increase the growth
rate of bacteria, but they do fine at 70F.

Generally, fresh water is NOT as stressful as ammonia. (If tank and tap
are reasonably matched, dechlorinated fresh water is not stressful at
all.) However, during a cycle when ammonia levels are high, a
moderately sized water change with alkaline tapwater can raise tank pH
and make the remaining ammonia more toxic. Sometimes tap water pH
changes after aerating overnight so try that if tank and tap don't match.

Stop adding the Cycle. It doesn't work very well and if you use it more
than once, it seems to make tanks cycle more slowly. (Bacterial
nutrients in the bottle maybe?) If you can find/afford it, BioSpira is
supposed to be a much better product.

The lethargy sounds like nitrite poisoning. Have you tested for
nitrites yet?

Add 1 teaspoon salt/gallon to the tank to help prevent nitrite poisoning
and help your fish recover from any diseases that might be causing the
lethargy. When you change water, you will need to add 1 tsp salt/gallon
to replacement water as well. I would also add a dose of Aquarisol
(copper). I find that new goldfish often have parasites that can be
killed by copper.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

I am surprised to hear that I have too many fish. I have cycled a tank with
one small fantail before and it went reasonably well. I have always lived
by the "one inch of fish per gallon" rule and I am certainly under that
limit now, probably in the 4-5 inch range for my 10 gallon tank. I have not
tested for nitrite yet - I didn't think there would be much point yet. My
reasoning is that continually rising ammonia levels should be evidence that
nitrite producing bacteria have not yet colonized the tank, is that correct?

I have gotten several recommendations for BioSpira over Cycle, and I will
switch to that. Also I have been putting salt in the aquarium. Do I need
to do this repeatedly or just one initial dose, then replace with water
changes?

Assuming the fish die (let's hope not but I must prepare for the worst) will
the tank have enough organic material to finish the cycle itself or will I
immediately need to add more fish? If I could let the cycle finish on its
own I would not have to put anymore fish through the stress.

Thanks again for all the help!

"Altum" wrote in message
et...
David McDermott wrote:
Hello everybody. I am setting up a new tank and my cycle doesn't seem to
be going so well. It's just a 10 gal tank and I put fish (2 small common
goldfish and a slightly bigger fantail) in it two weeks ago today
(Tuesday). The ammonia levels continue to rise, at last check last night
was around 1.0 ppm (probably higher now). I did a partial water change
on Saturday (approx. 25%) and will do another 10-15% change tonight to
try to help the poor guys. My tank averages about 70 degrees, perhaps
dropping a couple of degrees at night.

I am not a seasoned veteran of tank set up yet but in my limited past
experience it has not taken this long for the ammonia level to drop.
What could be wrong? I have been putting in Hagen Cycle, a highly
controversial decision, I know. Should I continue regular small water
changes to dilute the ammonia or will fresh water all the time stress the
fish as much as the ammonia? I've already pretty much conceded that the
fish will die, they really don't look good (very lathargic, hiding in my
decorations). I have reduced feeding to a tiny pinch every other day so
I know there is none being wasted. Is this just a matter of me being
impatient? The only real difference I can think of between this
situation and my past experience is that the temperature may have been
slightly warmer in my other tank setup - I can't remember exactly,
although I have never had a heated tank so the difference would be
minimal.

I would also like to extend my thanks to everyone who is so active on
here. Most often I have been able to answer my questions without posting
just by reading over past discussions. Hopefully someday I will be an
expert and able to offer my help to others in this group!

Have you tried to cycle with goldfish before? You have too many goldfish
to cycle a 10 gallon tank. (Or even to live there once they start growing
well.) I would have cycled with only one goldfish because they put out so
much ammonia and waste. Heat does increase the growth rate of bacteria,
but they do fine at 70F.

Generally, fresh water is NOT as stressful as ammonia. (If tank and tap
are reasonably matched, dechlorinated fresh water is not stressful at
all.) However, during a cycle when ammonia levels are high, a moderately
sized water change with alkaline tapwater can raise tank pH and make the
remaining ammonia more toxic. Sometimes tap water pH changes after
aerating overnight so try that if tank and tap don't match.

Stop adding the Cycle. It doesn't work very well and if you use it more
than once, it seems to make tanks cycle more slowly. (Bacterial nutrients
in the bottle maybe?) If you can find/afford it, BioSpira is supposed to
be a much better product.

The lethargy sounds like nitrite poisoning. Have you tested for nitrites
yet?

Add 1 teaspoon salt/gallon to the tank to help prevent nitrite poisoning
and help your fish recover from any diseases that might be causing the
lethargy. When you change water, you will need to add 1 tsp salt/gallon
to replacement water as well. I would also add a dose of Aquarisol
(copper). I find that new goldfish often have parasites that can be
killed by copper.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

David McDermott wrote:
I am surprised to hear that I have too many fish. I have cycled a tank with
one small fantail before and it went reasonably well. I have always lived
by the "one inch of fish per gallon" rule and I am certainly under that
limit now, probably in the 4-5 inch range for my 10 gallon tank. I have not
tested for nitrite yet - I didn't think there would be much point yet. My
reasoning is that continually rising ammonia levels should be evidence that
nitrite producing bacteria have not yet colonized the tank, is that correct?

Right. One small fantail is ideal for cycling a 10 gallon tank. You
have double that so the cycle will be much harder on you and your fish.

The one inch per gallon rule of thumb is for FULL stocking in a cycled,
biologically mature tank. You must gradually stock to that level, and
generally not for at least three months. Cycling works best with one
inch of fish or less per five gallons. The "inch per gallon" rule of
thumb really only applies to small, normally shaped fish like platies,
tetras, or barbs. Fat, fancy goldfish like fantails have much more bulk
per inch of length than tetras. They require a lot more oxygen and put
out a lot more waste and ammonia so you have to stock fewer inches per
gallon. The rule completely breaks down with large fish like oscars or
mature 8" goldfish.

Nitrite and ammonia always overlap some in a cycle. As soon as the
bacteria that break down ammonia start to get established, nitrite
appears. Once you see nitrite, ammonia usually falls pretty fast.

I have gotten several recommendations for BioSpira over Cycle, and I will
switch to that. Also I have been putting salt in the aquarium. Do I need
to do this repeatedly or just one initial dose, then replace with water
changes?

You have two choices. Right now, while your water changes are not very
consistent, it's easiest to add one initial dose and replace with water
changes. Once you're on a water change schedule, you can add 2 tsp of
salt with each water change. (Assuming you're changing 1/4 of the water
this will give you about 1 tsp/gallon in the tank.)

Assuming the fish die (let's hope not but I must prepare for the worst) will
the tank have enough organic material to finish the cycle itself or will I
immediately need to add more fish? If I could let the cycle finish on its
own I would not have to put anymore fish through the stress.

You still need an ammonia source for the bacteria. I'm not good with
fishless cycles, but I'm sure someone can tell you how much ordinary
ammonia to add to finish maturing your filter. Personally, I'd change
enough water to drop ammonia below 0.25 ppm and add ONE new goldfish and
ONE dose of BioSpira.

Thanks again for all the help!

You're welcome. Good luck with your fish.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Altum wrote,
I'm not good with
fishless cycles, but I'm sure someone can tell you how much ordinary
ammonia to add to finish maturing your filter. Personally......

Fishless cycle is the only way I would do a cycle - no fish to harm or
kill, a *lot* less work (no water changes), and a *lot* faster (10 to
14 days instead of 4 to 8 weeks). 5 to 6 drops per gal. of pure
ammonia is around 5ppm, which would be enough ammonia for a full tank
of fish. The ammonia only needs to be put into the tank _one_ time at
5ppm. Daily 'feeding' of ammonia may lead to what is called a 'never
ending cycle'. If the filter was seeded with squeezings from an
established filter, nitrites should show up around the 7th or 8th day
and drop to 0 somewhere between the 10th and 14th day. NitrAtes will be
quite high at this point and a 50 to 70% water change is needed to
bring the levels down enough for fish. If wanted, the *full* fish load
can be put into the tank at this time. If you are going to wait a
day/week, before adding fish, one or two drops of pure ammonia needs to
be added to the tank each day to 'feed' the now established bacteria
colony untill the fish are added............. Frank

"Frank" wrote in message
oups.com...
Altum wrote,
I'm not good with
fishless cycles, but I'm sure someone can tell you how much ordinary
ammonia to add to finish maturing your filter. Personally......

Fishless cycle is the only way I would do a cycle - no fish to harm or
kill, a *lot* less work (no water changes), and a *lot* faster (10 to
14 days instead of 4 to 8 weeks). 5 to 6 drops per gal. of pure
ammonia is around 5ppm, which would be enough ammonia for a full tank
of fish. The ammonia only needs to be put into the tank _one_ time at
5ppm. Daily 'feeding' of ammonia may lead to what is called a 'never
ending cycle'. If the filter was seeded with squeezings from an
established filter, nitrites should show up around the 7th or 8th day
and drop to 0 somewhere between the 10th and 14th day. NitrAtes will be
quite high at this point and a 50 to 70% water change is needed to
bring the levels down enough for fish. If wanted, the *full* fish load
can be put into the tank at this time. If you are going to wait a
day/week, before adding fish, one or two drops of pure ammonia needs to
be added to the tank each day to 'feed' the now established bacteria
colony untill the fish are added............. Frank


I think for my next tank I will try fishless. I have always disliked
putting the fish through the stress of a cycle, it seems unnecessarily cruel
and the worst part is there isn't much you can do to stop it.

I changed about 15% of my water again last night and tested the ammonia this
morning. It is down a bit, to about 0.75 ppm. I was hoping it would be
down even further after diluting but I guess it's still a small victory.
I'm going to do another 10 - 15% change either tonight or tomorrow. I know
all this fresh water isn't exactly good either but I always dechlorinate so
hopefully that will ease the stress a bit.

I was checking my filter last night ( a Whisper 10) and I'm a little
confused. I have asked about this filter in the newsgroup before and it was
described as having the Bio-bag and an extra foam insert meant to house the
bacteria. Well mine has no such foam insert and I assumed that the flossy
biobag that contains the carbon would house the bacteria. Does anyone else
have this filter? If so did mine for some reason ship without the foam and
should I be complaining to the pet store? The filter was sealed and
everything so I didn't suspect anything until I read some other posts.
Could this be the reason it is taking so long for the ammonia to drop?

adding copper: the last time I was at the pet store the worker told me
it is common to just toss a penny in the tank. I am extremely skeptical of
this (and have not yet done so) but does anyone know if it is safe and/or
beneficial?

"Altum" wrote in message
et...
David McDermott wrote:
Hello everybody. I am setting up a new tank and my cycle doesn't seem to
be going so well. It's just a 10 gal tank and I put fish (2 small common
goldfish and a slightly bigger fantail) in it two weeks ago today
(Tuesday). The ammonia levels continue to rise, at last check last night
was around 1.0 ppm (probably higher now). I did a partial water change
on Saturday (approx. 25%) and will do another 10-15% change tonight to
try to help the poor guys. My tank averages about 70 degrees, perhaps
dropping a couple of degrees at night.

I am not a seasoned veteran of tank set up yet but in my limited past
experience it has not taken this long for the ammonia level to drop.
What could be wrong? I have been putting in Hagen Cycle, a highly
controversial decision, I know. Should I continue regular small water
changes to dilute the ammonia or will fresh water all the time stress the
fish as much as the ammonia? I've already pretty much conceded that the
fish will die, they really don't look good (very lathargic, hiding in my
decorations). I have reduced feeding to a tiny pinch every other day so
I know there is none being wasted. Is this just a matter of me being
impatient? The only real difference I can think of between this
situation and my past experience is that the temperature may have been
slightly warmer in my other tank setup - I can't remember exactly,
although I have never had a heated tank so the difference would be
minimal.

I would also like to extend my thanks to everyone who is so active on
here. Most often I have been able to answer my questions without posting
just by reading over past discussions. Hopefully someday I will be an
expert and able to offer my help to others in this group!

Have you tried to cycle with goldfish before? You have too many goldfish
to cycle a 10 gallon tank. (Or even to live there once they start growing
well.) I would have cycled with only one goldfish because they put out so
much ammonia and waste. Heat does increase the growth rate of bacteria,
but they do fine at 70F.

Generally, fresh water is NOT as stressful as ammonia. (If tank and tap
are reasonably matched, dechlorinated fresh water is not stressful at
all.) However, during a cycle when ammonia levels are high, a moderately
sized water change with alkaline tapwater can raise tank pH and make the
remaining ammonia more toxic. Sometimes tap water pH changes after
aerating overnight so try that if tank and tap don't match.

Stop adding the Cycle. It doesn't work very well and if you use it more
than once, it seems to make tanks cycle more slowly. (Bacterial nutrients
in the bottle maybe?) If you can find/afford it, BioSpira is supposed to
be a much better product.

The lethargy sounds like nitrite poisoning. Have you tested for nitrites
yet?

Add 1 teaspoon salt/gallon to the tank to help prevent nitrite poisoning
and help your fish recover from any diseases that might be causing the
lethargy. When you change water, you will need to add 1 tsp salt/gallon
to replacement water as well. I would also add a dose of Aquarisol
(copper). I find that new goldfish often have parasites that can be
killed by copper.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

David McDermott wrote:
adding copper: the last time I was at the pet store the worker told me
it is common to just toss a penny in the tank. I am extremely skeptical of
this (and have not yet done so) but does anyone know if it is safe and/or
beneficial?

How old is this guy? My dad told me about doing that decades ago. It
works, but nowadays we use a copper sulfate or chelated copper solution
like Aquarisol or CopperSafe to control the concentration better.

You also don't want copper around all the time in a tank the way you get
with a penny. It builds up in fish tissues and shortens their
lifespans. Copper will also kill desirable invertebrates like shrimp or
mystery snails.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to email me.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com