PING G Patterson:Old Thread Follow-Up

G Patterson wrote:
(regarding Bio-Spira)
From what I've read, it's a live culture of nitrifying bacteria. Some
people
swear by it. If you use it, you need to provide a source of food for it. If
you
remember the cycle, food turns to urine, which goes to ammonia, which goes
to
nitrites, which goes to nitrates. You could buy a few fish and add the
Bio-Spira
in a day or two as the ammonia level starts to come up, or you could add
food to
the tank just as if there were fish in there. If the ammonia level hasn't
started to rise, the bacteria will die off.

I am cycling with 65 gallons with Cured Live-Rock. Will waste and die-off
from the
Rock itself feed the Bio-Spira bacteria?
Might that then result in having less over-all die-off on the Rock and
preserve more of its critters?
Might that make a gentler cycle?
Even with the stuff I`m planning on being very patient before introducing
fish.
But I thought maybe I could put several hermit crabs in relatively soon if
I`m taking this approach?

Please forgive my newbie naivete---your help continues to be greatly
appreciated.

StringerBell wrote:

I am cycling with 65 gallons with Cured Live-Rock. Will waste and die-off
from the
Rock itself feed the Bio-Spira bacteria?

Yes.

Might that then result in having less over-all die-off on the Rock and
preserve more of its critters?

Maybe. You shouldn't see much die-off in cured live rock - that's what curing
the rock does.

Might that make a gentler cycle?

Yes. That's the entire idea behind the Bio-Spira.

Even with the stuff I`m planning on being very patient before introducing
fish.

Start testing nitrites after a week. If they don't go up, you can start adding
livestock after another week. If the nitrites go up, wait on them to come down
before adding fish. That shouldn't take more than 3 weeks total. If you are
planning to quarantine your new purchases (a good idea), you can buy the first
one now and keep it in quarantine.

Spacing your additions works well. I bought a 100 gallon tank in 1976 and
upgraded it to a 125 about 15 years ago. I have never been able to afford to add
lots of large fish to that tank, so all additions were spaced out. I have never
seen a nitrite level higher than 0.1 in either of those tanks, except for once
when the fluidized bed filter I had failed and I didn't know it.

But I thought maybe I could put several hermit crabs in relatively soon if
I`m taking this approach?

Some hermits are vegetarians; some carnivores. Whichever you buy, you should
dump a little food in there for them. They won't need much. Once you have fish
in the tank, the hermits will feed on leftover fish food. As algae develops in
the tank, you'll probably want more of the vegetarian species.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Might that then result in having less over-all die-off on the Rock and
preserve more of its critters?

Maybe. You shouldn't see much die-off in cured live rock - that's what
curing the rock does.

The Rock is being sold as Cured---but its being shipped about 1500 miles by
Fed-Ex. I couldnt afford the dealers who ship the Rock fully submerged in
water. I figure this person is shipping it damp---so I figured plenty of
stuff would die before it reached my door. Thats why I thought my
refridgerated Bio-Spira might still be usefull to my new aquarium.

If you are planning to quarantine your new purchases (a good idea), you can
buy the first one now and keep it in quarantine.

I guess this would mean setting up a small tank with my main aquarium water
and the
Bio-Spira.? Because THAT tank wouldnt be cycled yet either
I was curious about the quarrantine thing---I understand the
avoid-contaminating-disease idea behind it---but it also seems that the
animal`s stress level would be raised by adding yet another acclimation to
its hectic life .It`s a long way from Fiji to Jersey!
So it`s stress the one to save the many.
Its starting to seem that this Marine thang is full of Catch-22s--
and us mere mortals have to choose lesser-evils all the time.

StringerBell wrote:

The Rock is being sold as Cured---but its being shipped about 1500 miles by
Fed-Ex. I couldnt afford the dealers who ship the Rock fully submerged in
water. I figure this person is shipping it damp---so I figured plenty of
stuff would die before it reached my door. Thats why I thought my
refridgerated Bio-Spira might still be usefull to my new aquarium.

Yeah, it'll be shipped damp - probably soaking wet and wrapped in wet newspaper.
There should still be a good bacterial population, which is the main thing
you're looking for. Curing removes the gross animal population, such as sponges.
I agree that Bio-Spira *might* be useful, and I believe that it can't hurt
anything. Pszemol is correct that it shouldn't be necessary. I certainly
wouldn't go out and buy some. That shipping/dieoff situation is the main reason
that I'm buying smaller lots of uncured live rock and curing it in my tank. The
consensus is not to do what I'm doing, by the way!

I guess this would mean setting up a small tank with my main aquarium water
and the
Bio-Spira.?

Actually, my quarantine tank simply has a Fluval cannister (with bio-beads,
carbon, and floss in it) and a cheap protein skimmer. I made a lousy choice with
the skimmer, but that's what I get for not researching it more than I did.

I was curious about the quarrantine thing---I understand the
avoid-contaminating-disease idea behind it---but it also seems that the
animal`s stress level would be raised by adding yet another acclimation to
its hectic life .It`s a long way from Fiji to Jersey!

Yep, that's a problem. Would you rather have to move all of your fish into
quarantine for three weeks 'cause you have an ick outbreak and adding copper
will kill all your live rock animeebles? That would *really* put stress on your
fish!

With any luck, you will rarely use your quarantine tank, so it will never stay
cycled for any appreciable period. Instead of Bio-Spira in the quarantine tank,
what you do is to change half the water in the quarantine tank every week when
it has inhabitants. If you get a nitrite spike, change more often. Use water
from your main tank for the water change and make up new water for the main
tank. You can also stock the quarantine tank with some live rock to serve as a
bacterial source, but, if you get an outbreak of ick in the quarantine tank,
that live rock will die from the treatment.

Some people also recommend "dipping" new purchases in some sort of bath before
quarantine. You'll see references to freshwater baths, formaldehyde, etc.

In any case, I just lost all my fish (including a powder-blue tang I'd had for
over 7 years) because I failed to quarantine a new fish. Back in the FO days, I
would've just dosed the main tank, but things get more complicated with FOWLR.

Its starting to seem that this Marine thang is full of Catch-22s--
and us mere mortals have to choose lesser-evils all the time.

You got it!

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

In any case, I just lost all my fish (including a powder-blue tang I'd had
for
over 7 years) because I failed to quarantine a new fish.

Man,
Sorry to hear that. I feel for you.

"StringerBell" wrote in message ...
I am cycling with 65 gallons with Cured Live-Rock.
Will waste and die-off from the
Rock itself feed the Bio-Spira bacteria?

I would risk the statement that when you cycle the tank
with live rock or live sand than you do not need any
additional bacteria - in form of BioSpira or any other.
Live rock has plenty of bacteria living in the ocean
to populate your tank and do as bilogical filters.

Bacteria starters like BioSpira are usefull if you
start a new tank with no live rock with all "dead"
(dry) decorations or bleached coral skeletons...
In such situation adding fish and not using starter
will cause too much of the ammonia buildup because
bacteria amounts coming to the tank on/in fish
are not enough to keep up with the amount of waste.

Usually it is enough to add a cup or two of wet sand
from healthy running marine tank and there will be
enough bacteria on it exceeding any amount of bacteria
surviving in a sealed plastic bag on the store shelf.
Nitrification/mineralization process conducted by
bacteria is highly demanding in oxygen, so any sealed
plastic bag will reduce number of live bacteria with
time dramatically. Adding fresh sand is MUCH better.

Of course manufacturers of bio-starters will never
point your to simple and free solutions because it
is against their bussiness plans :-)

Thanks for your informative help.
Its just that I got the stuff as a birthday present
(you know you have a good marriage when your wife gives you Bacteria as a
gift!
The whole reason that my tank snowballed into a
Live-Rock project is because I really couldnt
reconcile myself to just dump the stuff in the Aquarium and throw Tangs in
the next day like the LFS dude suggested.
So I have it and dont want it to go to waste. Actually I guess I really do
want it to go to waste
(Lord forgive me for that one)


"Pszemol" wrote in message :
I would risk the statement that when you cycle the tank
with live rock or live sand than you do not need any
additional bacteria - in form of BioSpira or any other.
Live rock has plenty of bacteria living in the ocean
to populate your tank and do as bilogical filters.

"StringerBell" wrote in message ...
Thanks for your informative help.
Its just that I got the stuff as a birthday present
(you know you have a good marriage when your wife gives you Bacteria as a
gift!
The whole reason that my tank snowballed into a
Live-Rock project is because I really couldnt
reconcile myself to just dump the stuff in the Aquarium and throw Tangs in
the next day like the LFS dude suggested.
So I have it and dont want it to go to waste. Actually I guess I really do
want it to go to waste
(Lord forgive me for that one)

You do not really need to use this stuff with live rock.
Keep it refridgerated for the time you need to make up
a quarantine tank quickly with a sponge filter or something.