Platys Mollies and other live bearers

When I was young - about a hundred years ago - I worked in a pet shop. At
that time we always used salt in the water for the Mollies, as they were
said to benfit from it, in fact wouldn't thrive without! Now I see the LFS
put salt in the tanks of all live bearers. Is this really necessary? I have
2 platys that are in great shape, and thrive in my fish soup of a tank, and
I never put salt in that tank.

Reason I'm asking is that I'd like more Platys, but are reluctant to buy
speciments that have gotten used to quite large quantites of salt in the
water in the shop. I happened to be there while they put the weekly dosage
in the tanks of the live bearers, and we're talking about a litre of salt
in 60 liters of water! Has it slowly developed to a fact that all live
bearers need salt, and not just the Mollies as time has passed, or didn't we
know any better back then?

Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life without
salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water for live
bearers other than Mollies?

"McEve" wrote in message
...
When I was young - about a hundred years ago - I worked in a pet shop.
At
that time we always used salt in the water for the Mollies, as they
were
said to benfit from it, in fact wouldn't thrive without! Now I see the
LFS
put salt in the tanks of all live bearers. Is this really necessary? I
have
2 platys that are in great shape, and thrive in my fish soup of a tank,
and
I never put salt in that tank.

It would probably vary by LFS and by the farmers growing the fish.
Freshwater Guppies are available to the trade.

Reason I'm asking is that I'd like more Platys, but are reluctant to
buy
speciments that have gotten used to quite large quantites of salt in
the
water in the shop. I happened to be there while they put the weekly
dosage
in the tanks of the live bearers, and we're talking about a litre of
salt
in 60 liters of water! Has it slowly developed to a fact that all live
bearers need salt, and not just the Mollies as time has passed, or
didn't we
know any better back then?

Other than the Mollys, their dependance on salt is probably artificial.
Raising livebearers in very hot salty water benefits the growers in 2
ways. The combination of salt & heat reduces the number of pathogens
which will survive (less bacterial and viral diseases) and increases
their metabolism and appetite, (so they grow faster).

Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life without
salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water for
live
bearers other than Mollies?

Yes, and now, yes (until acclimated). You can try to get them off salt
slowly, but for livebearers born in brackish water, I think your best
success will be with their fry.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"NetMax" wrote in message
news
"McEve" wrote in message
...
When I was young - about a hundred years ago - I worked in a pet
shop.
At
that time we always used salt in the water for the Mollies, as they
were
said to benfit from it, in fact wouldn't thrive without! Now I see
the
LFS
put salt in the tanks of all live bearers. Is this really necessary?
I
have
2 platys that are in great shape, and thrive in my fish soup of a
tank,
and
I never put salt in that tank.

It would probably vary by LFS and by the farmers growing the fish.
Freshwater Guppies are available to the trade.

Reason I'm asking is that I'd like more Platys, but are reluctant to
buy
speciments that have gotten used to quite large quantites of salt in
the
water in the shop. I happened to be there while they put the weekly
dosage
in the tanks of the live bearers, and we're talking about a litre of
salt
in 60 liters of water! Has it slowly developed to a fact that all
live
bearers need salt, and not just the Mollies as time has passed, or
didn't we
know any better back then?

Other than the Mollys, their dependance on salt is probably artificial.
Raising livebearers in very hot salty water benefits the growers in 2
ways. The combination of salt & heat reduces the number of pathogens
which will survive (less bacterial and viral diseases) and increases
their metabolism and appetite, (so they grow faster).

Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life
without
salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water
for
live
bearers other than Mollies?

Yes, and now, yes (until acclimated). You can try to get them off salt
slowly, but for livebearers born in brackish water, I think your best
success will be with their fry.
--
www.NetMax.tk

OK, I just did a little experiment. I have these five 20g tanks, and the
water is soft 3dgH, 3dkH and 7.7pH (not exactly paradise for
livebearers). I usually put 1/2 cup marine salt into a 60g tank, but I'd
put 1 full cup of marine salt into each 20g tank. That's 48 teaspoons or
2.4 teaspoons per gallon. I then stocked the tanks with Guppies (that
I'd had for several weeks are were very sickly), Balloon Mollies &
assorted Swordtails (which I'd had for many weeks and were very healthy
but acclimated to 100% freshwater), and Saffron Mollies & Starburst
Platys (new delivery from Singapore).

It's only been six days, but so far I have no regrets. The Guppies don't
look better or worst but haven't been dying (which is an improvement).
The freshwater acclimated livebearers haven't missed a beat (appetite
activity colouration all excellent). Most surprising is that the new
arrivals look really great. Lost two within a day, but those didn't look
good at arrival, and the delivery was about 100 fish.

This experiment is working out nicely, but 2 problems. I took those
tanks off-line so the automatic water changer would not dilute the
salinity. I'll need to make up a manual schedule with a salt
replenishment program. The 2nd problem is what to do next. I can post a
sign so customers know that they are in brackish water (I think this
concentration is brackish). I'd like to acclimate them to freshwater,
but with all the fish deliveries every week, I cannot coordinate the
acclimation of several tanks at different stages.

I'm open to ideas. I might try to adjust the salinity downwards. I
think I'm at around .24% right now, and if I can get the same results at
..1% then acclimation to freshwater will be easier for customers.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"NetMax" wrote in message
.. .

Other than the Mollys, their dependance on salt is probably artificial.
Raising livebearers in very hot salty water benefits the growers in 2
ways. The combination of salt & heat reduces the number of pathogens
which will survive (less bacterial and viral diseases) and increases
their metabolism and appetite, (so they grow faster).

Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life
without
salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water
for
live
bearers other than Mollies?

Yes, and now, yes (until acclimated). You can try to get them off salt
slowly, but for livebearers born in brackish water, I think your best
success will be with their fry.
--
www.NetMax.tk

OK, I just did a little experiment. I have these five 20g tanks, and the
water is soft 3dgH, 3dkH and 7.7pH (not exactly paradise for
livebearers). I usually put 1/2 cup marine salt into a 60g tank, but I'd
put 1 full cup of marine salt into each 20g tank. That's 48 teaspoons or
2.4 teaspoons per gallon. I then stocked the tanks with Guppies (that
I'd had for several weeks are were very sickly), Balloon Mollies &
assorted Swordtails (which I'd had for many weeks and were very healthy
but acclimated to 100% freshwater), and Saffron Mollies & Starburst
Platys (new delivery from Singapore).

It's only been six days, but so far I have no regrets. The Guppies don't
look better or worst but haven't been dying (which is an improvement).
The freshwater acclimated livebearers haven't missed a beat (appetite
activity colouration all excellent). Most surprising is that the new
arrivals look really great. Lost two within a day, but those didn't look
good at arrival, and the delivery was about 100 fish.

This experiment is working out nicely, but 2 problems. I took those
tanks off-line so the automatic water changer would not dilute the
salinity. I'll need to make up a manual schedule with a salt
replenishment program. The 2nd problem is what to do next. I can post a
sign so customers know that they are in brackish water (I think this
concentration is brackish). I'd like to acclimate them to freshwater,
but with all the fish deliveries every week, I cannot coordinate the
acclimation of several tanks at different stages.

I'm open to ideas. I might try to adjust the salinity downwards. I
think I'm at around .24% right now, and if I can get the same results at
.1% then acclimation to freshwater will be easier for customers.
--
www.NetMax.tk



Thank you for your extremely well answer to my question! Looks like I can
conclude that only the Molly is originally meant to benefit from salt, but
the development goes in the direction of using salt for all live bearers.
When I hear about your experiment I can see why they do it too.

The Platies I did buy are still alive and healthy, but they do not get any
salt in the water. I don't hink my Angels and Pleco would apreciate that one
bit

Maybe it depends on how many fish pr gallon the tank has, as to how obious
the benefit of salt is? LFS's (and of course breeders) have quite a few
fish in every tank, compared to my fairly sparingly populated tank.

Thanks again NetMax, as always

On Mon, 24 May 2004 22:22:01 +0200, "McEve" wrote:

When I was young - about a hundred years ago - I worked in a pet shop. At
that time we always used salt in the water for the Mollies, as they were
said to benfit from it, in fact wouldn't thrive without! Now I see the LFS
put salt in the tanks of all live bearers. Is this really necessary? I have
2 platys that are in great shape, and thrive in my fish soup of a tank, and
I never put salt in that tank.

Reason I'm asking is that I'd like more Platys, but are reluctant to buy
speciments that have gotten used to quite large quantites of salt in the
water in the shop. I happened to be there while they put the weekly dosage
in the tanks of the live bearers, and we're talking about a litre of salt
in 60 liters of water! Has it slowly developed to a fact that all live
bearers need salt, and not just the Mollies as time has passed, or didn't we
know any better back then?

Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life without
salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water for live
bearers other than Mollies?


I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are not
likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone out of
business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would conclude
that the fish are able to make the adjustment. Get a couple of
females and a pretty male. I be you will have all the Platties you
want with in a few months.

"Dick" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 May 2004 22:22:01 +0200, "McEve" wrote:

When I was young - about a hundred years ago - I worked in a pet shop.
At
that time we always used salt in the water for the Mollies, as they
were
said to benfit from it, in fact wouldn't thrive without! Now I see the
LFS
put salt in the tanks of all live bearers. Is this really necessary? I
have
2 platys that are in great shape, and thrive in my fish soup of a
tank, and
I never put salt in that tank.

Reason I'm asking is that I'd like more Platys, but are reluctant to
buy
speciments that have gotten used to quite large quantites of salt in
the
water in the shop. I happened to be there while they put the weekly
dosage
in the tanks of the live bearers, and we're talking about a litre of
salt
in 60 liters of water! Has it slowly developed to a fact that all live
bearers need salt, and not just the Mollies as time has passed, or
didn't we
know any better back then?

Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life
without
salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water for
live
bearers other than Mollies?


I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are not
likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone out of
business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would conclude
that the fish are able to make the adjustment.

Your conclusion is incorrect. The business model for some of the chain
operations does not require *any* profits from the live fish dept. The
profits are from people buying pet food & paraphenalia. The fish are
loss leaders. This is why the mom& pops went under. As remarkable (and
cynical) as it may sound, they would have no problem with all their
Platys dying, provided they lived a few weeks and they sold a few. You
don't have to believe me, but I'm in the trade (fortunately not in one of
those chains) and there have also been posters who have worked with and
seen this going on.

On this topic, I verified today with one of my importers (who travels to
the far-east), that off-shore breeders are keeping all their livebearers
in 4 to 5 grams of salt per litre of water. I think that is 19 grams per
US gallon (or 3.8 US teaspoons /g). Whether your LFS knows it or not,
this is probably what their livebearers were born and raised in.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Get a couple of
females and a pretty male. I be you will have all the Platties you
want with in a few months.

Subject: Platys Mollies and other live bearers
From: "NetMax"
Date: 6/3/2004 10:10 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

"Dick" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 24 May 2004 22:22:01 +0200, "McEve" wrote:

When I was young - about a hundred years ago - I worked in a pet shop.
At
that time we always used salt in the water for the Mollies, as they
were
said to benfit from it, in fact wouldn't thrive without! Now I see the
LFS
put salt in the tanks of all live bearers. Is this really necessary? I
have
2 platys that are in great shape, and thrive in my fish soup of a
tank, and
I never put salt in that tank.

Reason I'm asking is that I'd like more Platys, but are reluctant to
buy
speciments that have gotten used to quite large quantites of salt in
the
water in the shop. I happened to be there while they put the weekly
dosage
in the tanks of the live bearers, and we're talking about a litre of
salt
in 60 liters of water! Has it slowly developed to a fact that all live
bearers need salt, and not just the Mollies as time has passed, or
didn't we
know any better back then?

Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life
without
salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water for
live
bearers other than Mollies?


I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are not
likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone out of
business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would conclude
that the fish are able to make the adjustment.

Your conclusion is incorrect. The business model for some of the chain
operations does not require *any* profits from the live fish dept. The
profits are from people buying pet food & paraphenalia. The fish are
loss leaders. This is why the mom& pops went under. As remarkable (and
cynical) as it may sound, they would have no problem with all their
Platys dying, provided they lived a few weeks and they sold a few. You
don't have to believe me, but I'm in the trade (fortunately not in one of
those chains) and there have also been posters who have worked with and
seen this going on.

On this topic, I verified today with one of my importers (who travels to
the far-east), that off-shore breeders are keeping all their livebearers
in 4 to 5 grams of salt per litre of water. I think that is 19 grams per
US gallon (or 3.8 US teaspoons /g). Whether your LFS knows it or not,
this is probably what their livebearers were born and raised in.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Got that right, NetMax!
This is the major prob with fancy Gups.
They're bornand raised in water with a good amoutn of salt in it, shipped
here...and quickly die after being put into 100% fresh water. The fry that are
born before the females die off are usually ok...but that's if they give birth
before they kick the bucket.

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:10:07 -0400, "NetMax"
wrote:

"Dick" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 24 May 2004 22:22:01 +0200, "McEve" wrote:

When I was young - about a hundred years ago - I worked in a pet shop.
At
that time we always used salt in the water for the Mollies, as they
were
said to benfit from it, in fact wouldn't thrive without! Now I see the
LFS
put salt in the tanks of all live bearers. Is this really necessary? I
have
2 platys that are in great shape, and thrive in my fish soup of a
tank, and
I never put salt in that tank.

Reason I'm asking is that I'd like more Platys, but are reluctant to
buy
speciments that have gotten used to quite large quantites of salt in
the
water in the shop. I happened to be there while they put the weekly
dosage
in the tanks of the live bearers, and we're talking about a litre of
salt
in 60 liters of water! Has it slowly developed to a fact that all live
bearers need salt, and not just the Mollies as time has passed, or
didn't we
know any better back then?

Do I need to be concerned about their ability to adjust to life
without
salt? And is it really necessary to put all that salt in the water for
live
bearers other than Mollies?


I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are not
likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone out of
business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would conclude
that the fish are able to make the adjustment.

Your conclusion is incorrect. The business model for some of the chain
operations does not require *any* profits from the live fish dept. The
profits are from people buying pet food & paraphenalia. The fish are
loss leaders. This is why the mom& pops went under. As remarkable (and
cynical) as it may sound, they would have no problem with all their
Platys dying, provided they lived a few weeks and they sold a few. You
don't have to believe me, but I'm in the trade (fortunately not in one of
those chains) and there have also been posters who have worked with and
seen this going on.

On this topic, I verified today with one of my importers (who travels to
the far-east), that off-shore breeders are keeping all their livebearers
in 4 to 5 grams of salt per litre of water. I think that is 19 grams per
US gallon (or 3.8 US teaspoons /g). Whether your LFS knows it or not,
this is probably what their livebearers were born and raised in.

I buy all my fish over the internet. Why would internet suppliers be
different? I have never had problems with mollies, platties or
swordtails so I assume they are not using salt.

Snipped

Subject: Platys Mollies and other live bearers
From: Dick
Date: 6/4/2004 4:37 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are not
likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone out of
business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would conclude
that the fish are able to make the adjustment.

I buy all my fish over the internet. Why would internet suppliers be
different? I have never had problems with mollies, platties or
swordtails so I assume they are not using salt.

Seems like you sure do make a lot of assumptions.
Maybe a little researching before you assume something would do the trick.

"Dick" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:10:07 -0400, "NetMax"
wrote:

"Dick" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 24 May 2004 22:22:01 +0200, "McEve"
wrote:

snip

I think you are being too careful. The fish the store sells are not
likely to go to homes that add salt. The store would have gone out
of
business if large number of fish had trouble. So, I would conclude
that the fish are able to make the adjustment.

Your conclusion is incorrect. The business model for some of the
chain
operations does not require *any* profits from the live fish dept.
The
profits are from people buying pet food & paraphenalia. The fish are
loss leaders. This is why the mom& pops went under. As remarkable
(and
cynical) as it may sound, they would have no problem with all their
Platys dying, provided they lived a few weeks and they sold a few.
You
don't have to believe me, but I'm in the trade (fortunately not in one
of
those chains) and there have also been posters who have worked with
and
seen this going on.

On this topic, I verified today with one of my importers (who travels
to
the far-east), that off-shore breeders are keeping all their
livebearers
in 4 to 5 grams of salt per litre of water. I think that is 19 grams
per
US gallon (or 3.8 US teaspoons /g). Whether your LFS knows it or not,
this is probably what their livebearers were born and raised in.

I buy all my fish over the internet. Why would internet suppliers be
different? I have never had problems with mollies, platties or
swordtails so I assume they are not using salt.

LFS = local fish store
There are many large scale suppliers around the world. For livebearers,
the least expensive source of supply which has reliable transport is
Singapore, which has several exporters working with local fish farms.
Other sources, in no particular order (China, Indonesia, Hong Kong,
Thailand etc) follow similar breeding conditions (warm saline) for
reasons of competition. The South American exporters are not big on
livebearers, and prefer to keep to locally available sof****er fish.
European suppliers are not an economic option here, like paying North
American costs plus air transport, so most LFS source through Florida to
Singapore, or directly through transhippers.

Buying fish from the Internet, usually means that you are paying much
higher prices for local labour operating smaller volume productions.
It's nice to imagine that you're getting better fish (genetics, health
etc), and you might be, but it's just an assumption. Internet fish could
have come from anywhere, but the supplier would need to have a
significant sized operation before they could buy from importers (who
deal in boxes of thousands of fish).

If you are buying from the Internet, simply ask what water parameters
they kept their fish in, (including how much salt they use), but then you
would need to buy a test kit ;~)
--
www.NetMax.tk