What would be the lowest water temperature survivable by either Koior Goldfish?

I'm actually leaning towards the planned pond being occupied by
Shubunkins/Comets - the reasoning behind this being, that for now, I'm
not convinced that I would be able to build a large enough pond to house
koi.

Living in an area where we can get heavy frosts I need to carefully
consider temperature drops in the winter (although not to the extent of
those in even colder climates) - this winter has actually been very mild
but I can't count on this. Obviously the pond needs to be dug to a depth
below the frost line to prevent the whole thing from freezing solid.
From recent observations of the reservoir for my water feature coupled
with the depth of my old pond and how far that iced up I'm pretty sure
that I can get the depth to avoid a total freeze up.....but I am now
curious how low the temperature can drop at the bottom of the pond
without it adversely affecting the fish...

TIA
Gill

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
I'm actually leaning towards the planned pond being occupied by
Shubunkins/Comets - the reasoning behind this being, that for now, I'm not
convinced that I would be able to build a large enough pond to house koi.

Living in an area where we can get heavy frosts I need to carefully
consider temperature drops in the winter (although not to the extent of
those in even colder climates) - this winter has actually been very mild
but I can't count on this. Obviously the pond needs to be dug to a depth
below the frost line to prevent the whole thing from freezing solid. From
recent observations of the reservoir for my water feature coupled with the
depth of my old pond and how far that iced up I'm pretty sure that I can
get the depth to avoid a total freeze up.....but I am now curious how low
the temperature can drop at the bottom of the pond without it adversely
affecting the fish...
=============================
One winter the bottom of my pond hit 38F. All fish survived. Several frogs
did not. IN MY EXPERIENCE goldfish are more tolerant of cold than koi.
They remain active longer in the fall.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:25:39 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

I'm actually leaning towards the planned pond being occupied by
Shubunkins/Comets - the reasoning behind this being, that for now, I'm
not convinced that I would be able to build a large enough pond to house
koi.

Well there are a lot of pretty shubunkins and goldfish to choose from now
days. Plus I have less stress over my goldfish than I do with my koi.

Living in an area where we can get heavy frosts I need to carefully
consider temperature drops in the winter (although not to the extent of
those in even colder climates) - this winter has actually been very mild
but I can't count on this. Obviously the pond needs to be dug to a depth
below the frost line to prevent the whole thing from freezing solid.
From recent observations of the reservoir for my water feature coupled
with the depth of my old pond and how far that iced up I'm pretty sure
that I can get the depth to avoid a total freeze up.....but I am now
curious how low the temperature can drop at the bottom of the pond
without it adversely affecting the fish...

TIA
Gill

A heater at the ready will relieve all stress. ;-) ~ jan

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:52:35 GMT, ~ jan
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:25:39 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

I'm actually leaning towards the planned pond being occupied by
Shubunkins/Comets - the reasoning behind this being, that for now, I'm
not convinced that I would be able to build a large enough pond to house
koi.

Well there are a lot of pretty shubunkins and goldfish to choose from now
days. Plus I have less stress over my goldfish than I do with my koi.

Living in an area where we can get heavy frosts I need to carefully
consider temperature drops in the winter (although not to the extent of
those in even colder climates) - this winter has actually been very mild
but I can't count on this. Obviously the pond needs to be dug to a depth
below the frost line to prevent the whole thing from freezing solid.
From recent observations of the reservoir for my water feature coupled
with the depth of my old pond and how far that iced up I'm pretty sure
that I can get the depth to avoid a total freeze up.....but I am now
curious how low the temperature can drop at the bottom of the pond
without it adversely affecting the fish...

TIA
Gill

A heater at the ready will relieve all stress. ;-) ~ janYea, especialy if you only need a 100 watter!

I shudder to think about the power bill some must have with those 5 or
6000 watt heaters runing during the fall and winter months in a large
koi pond.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Tristan wrote:

Yea, especialy if you only need a 100 watter!


As I just mentioned to Jan - I've bookmarked the 100 watt heater :-)

I shudder to think about the power bill some must have with those 5 or
6000 watt heaters runing during the fall and winter months in a large
koi pond.


Hmmmmm.....me too.....bad enough with all the heaters running in the
tropicals inside without having to heat the great outdoors.....



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

~ jan wrote:
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:25:39 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:


I'm actually leaning towards the planned pond being occupied by
Shubunkins/Comets - the reasoning behind this being, that for now, I'm
not convinced that I would be able to build a large enough pond to house
koi.


Well there are a lot of pretty shubunkins and goldfish to choose from now
days. Plus I have less stress over my goldfish than I do with my koi.

Agreed, especially with the shubunkins - the colour variations at my LFS
are quite spectacular.....


A heater at the ready will relieve all stress. ;-) ~ jan

I've bookmarked a supplier for that 100W heater that you mentioned :-)

Gill

As long as the water is not frozen that they are in they will
survive.I do not know exactly how cold thsat would be, but if you habd
a pond 4 feet deep and three feet of it was frozen solid, they would
still be fine in that foot of unfrozen water......as long as they
have an air hole or opening for gas exchange.....The big this is dig
it deep enough so the pond does not become one solid chunk of ice. I
do not know the frost level in your area but I would not think its all
that deep..For the most part my area sees hardly any frost yet alone
any ice. It does happen though. My water lines are buried a whopping 6
to 8 inches deep.....Never been frozen yet.......But temps have
dropped already and a 20 gal container of water with a goldy or two in
it has also became pretty much a frozen block of ice. I neglected ot
keep an eye on it, and to tell the truth I just up and forgot about
it. It did freeze pretty well close to completely, and had very little
space of unfrozen water for them to live in, yet the water lines
never froze. I guess it wa due to the fact the ground where water
lines run is in sunlight and exposed to suns warmth, where the half
barrel was on th enorth side in full shade of the house and no
sun.....but those two black moors did just fine.....I just measured
the temps in the three barrel feature as we have been having some
cold weather for here, and the water is 37 deg I guess the half barrel
is about 15 inches deep, and fully exposed all around to air......It
does have a thin skim of ice on one edge. The nearest preforms water
is still in the mid 40's as far as temp is concerned.....That ground
does offer good heat retention, and you will gain the heat lost fromn
a foundation into a pond if it is built close enough in lots of
cases.....Its unreal just how much heat can be lost through a
foundation. I dunno if youy all have slabs or basements, (more than
likely slabs) and even they will radiate and lose heat into the
ground. I guess once they get past a certain point they just go into a
hibernation......I know goldies and koi are in the speices of common
carp and minnows, and they all do just fine in the rivers and ponds
and dams that freeze up. I just have to believe if there is stil
sufficient water and gas exchange hole they will be fine...

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:25:39 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

I'm actually leaning towards the planned pond being occupied by
Shubunkins/Comets - the reasoning behind this being, that for now, I'm
not convinced that I would be able to build a large enough pond to house
koi.

Living in an area where we can get heavy frosts I need to carefully
consider temperature drops in the winter (although not to the extent of
those in even colder climates) - this winter has actually been very mild
but I can't count on this. Obviously the pond needs to be dug to a depth
below the frost line to prevent the whole thing from freezing solid.
From recent observations of the reservoir for my water feature coupled
with the depth of my old pond and how far that iced up I'm pretty sure
that I can get the depth to avoid a total freeze up.....but I am now
curious how low the temperature can drop at the bottom of the pond
without it adversely affecting the fish...

TIA
Gill



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Tristan wrote:
The big this is dig
it deep enough so the pond does not become one solid chunk of ice. I
do not know the frost level in your area but I would not think its all
that deep..

I dug down to 3 foot max on my old pond - it got around 3-4" of ice on
the top when the weather was at its coldest.....I used to put one of the
kid's balls on the surface to keep an air hole in the ice...

.....That ground
does offer good heat retention, and you will gain the heat lost fromn
a foundation into a pond if it is built close enough in lots of
cases.....Its unreal just how much heat can be lost through a
foundation. I dunno if youy all have slabs or basements, (more than
likely slabs) and even they will radiate and lose heat into the
ground.

The house is on concrete foundations - the part closest to the proposed
pond was dug down to around 6 foot (it is an addition so I watched them
do it).....never really thought about the house itself keeping the
ground warm but it is pretty obvious - also explains why the water
feature reservoir only gets a thin layer of ice.....


Gill

LIke Derek stated.....I do not think your gonna have any thing to
worry about with a pond and freezing weather.

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:09:04 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

Tristan wrote:
The big this is dig
it deep enough so the pond does not become one solid chunk of ice. I
do not know the frost level in your area but I would not think its all
that deep..

I dug down to 3 foot max on my old pond - it got around 3-4" of ice on
the top when the weather was at its coldest.....I used to put one of the
kid's balls on the surface to keep an air hole in the ice...

.....That ground
does offer good heat retention, and you will gain the heat lost fromn
a foundation into a pond if it is built close enough in lots of
cases.....Its unreal just how much heat can be lost through a
foundation. I dunno if youy all have slabs or basements, (more than
likely slabs) and even they will radiate and lose heat into the
ground.

The house is on concrete foundations - the part closest to the proposed
pond was dug down to around 6 foot (it is an addition so I watched them
do it).....never really thought about the house itself keeping the
ground warm but it is pretty obvious - also explains why the water
feature reservoir only gets a thin layer of ice.....


Gill



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

This maya be kind of a dumb question, considering the rap UK gets for
no sun, but does that area of your yard get much sun. As cold as its
may get, it still makes a heap of difference even on a cold day when
that old sun pops out.

We have an undergrund shelter made from 6 foot diam steel corrugated
culvert pipe 20 feet long......and its buried under 3' of dirt. Even
in it as cool as it stays in summer yu can feel a distinct difference
on the ceiling of it even with the three feet of dirt and brush on
top. In cold months temps have never dropped below 60 deg no matter
how cold its been outside.....

Do you have an ordinance / law/ regulation in regards to maximum depth
a pond can be? Some areas do have a max depth allowed in
residential areas. I am a firm believer of deeper is better up to a
certain point that is, but perhaps that area you have the french drain
is what they call it in USA, (gravel drain) you could build it up
higher, or make that area itself just a bit more shallower and perhaps
reserve it for a planted / marginal/ bog area, or pass over it with a
stream of sorts or perhaps postion the water fall there......

Your pics are nice and you do have lots of potential for a nice pond.
I tend to like a pond nestled in a corner, with lots of plants like
bamboo etc on the blind sides, but it does create problems when
maintenance etc is needed working up against a fence or house
wall......That decking is unique, that I see in the pics. The fellow I
mentined that just moved to the USA from GB, had decking like that and
he had it sanded and varnished and sanded and varnished to such a
high gloss it was nicer than most folks high dollar hard wood floors
or boat decks....... HIs pond was constructed differently. He dug a
hole and laid his pipes etc, for DB's etc/ then he laid in sheets of
foam, and then had it fiberglassed over, so his pond was actually a
formed inplace fiber glass pond. No worries for the most party with
leaks in liners etc.....and bamboo roots certainly would not be a
potential problem either....






On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:25:39 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

I'm actually leaning towards the planned pond being occupied by
Shubunkins/Comets - the reasoning behind this being, that for now, I'm
not convinced that I would be able to build a large enough pond to house
koi.

Living in an area where we can get heavy frosts I need to carefully
consider temperature drops in the winter (although not to the extent of
those in even colder climates) - this winter has actually been very mild
but I can't count on this. Obviously the pond needs to be dug to a depth
below the frost line to prevent the whole thing from freezing solid.
From recent observations of the reservoir for my water feature coupled
with the depth of my old pond and how far that iced up I'm pretty sure
that I can get the depth to avoid a total freeze up.....but I am now
curious how low the temperature can drop at the bottom of the pond
without it adversely affecting the fish...

TIA
Gill



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!