BAFFLED--ASSISTANCE REQUESTED

Greetings,

I have a small freshwater tank, approx 12.0" x 11.5" x 7.5". The
water temp is 27 degrees C. Gravel bottom, 3 live plants in small
pots, and the filter is one where the water is sucked in, goes through
a charcoal bag and then waterfalls into the tank.

Here are the test readings from the water:

pH = 7.4,
Ammonia = 0.0 mg/L
Nitrate = 2.0 mg/L
Nitrite = Somewhere between 2.0 and 5.0 mg/L

The fish tank was stocked with the following:

5 Neon Tetras
5 small Goldfish (about 1/2")
2 Guppies

ALSO...

2 ??? (about 1.5 ", non-aggressive, swim slowly, blue, shaped like
goldfish--i.e. not an angelfish or gourani etc, like to hide in the
plants)

1 Spotted "sucker" fish (about 1")

The uncertainty on the type of fish comes because I am living in
Japan. I knew that tetras/guppies/goldfish would all get along, and
with my limited Japanese, I communicated that I wanted 2-4 more fish.
As a result, I got the "sucker" and 2 other fish with their assurance
that the fish would get along, and they do. I'm pretty sure the
guppies were one male and one female because the shop insisted I buy
in pairs.

I've been feeding Tetra flake food and small green pellets to the
"sucker" fish.

I've had the fish for about 2 weeks, and this morning, both guppies
were dead. I found them dead together, slightly underneath the log
where the sucker fish lives. I'm completely stumped as to why both
fish were dead on the same day in the same location. They didn't seem
to have any problems: no ich, no weird colors, they ate just fine, but
not too much.

Does anyone have any ideas?

I appreciate your time and expertise.

N

Thats a three gallon tank and your fish died from poisoning themselves in
their own wastes ;o(
Please read http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/beginner.htm and follow the
links.
The nitrite would affect the fish in many ways but the fish would have
probably died from suffocation as their gills became affected. More will
follow ;o(
Do a 50% water change ( using dechlorinated water ) immediately.

What test kits are you using? I don't know of a nitrate kit that would read
down to 2.0 mg/l but that sounds like an ammonia reading ;o(
Your tank is only really ok for a single Betta. You have too many fish for a
15 gallon tank.

"nobbody" wrote in message
om...
Greetings,

I have a small freshwater tank, approx 12.0" x 11.5" x 7.5". The
water temp is 27 degrees C. Gravel bottom, 3 live plants in small
pots, and the filter is one where the water is sucked in, goes through
a charcoal bag and then waterfalls into the tank.

Here are the test readings from the water:

pH = 7.4,
Ammonia = 0.0 mg/L
Nitrate = 2.0 mg/L
Nitrite = Somewhere between 2.0 and 5.0 mg/L

The fish tank was stocked with the following:

5 Neon Tetras
5 small Goldfish (about 1/2")
2 Guppies

ALSO...

2 ??? (about 1.5 ", non-aggressive, swim slowly, blue, shaped like
goldfish--i.e. not an angelfish or gourani etc, like to hide in the
plants)

1 Spotted "sucker" fish (about 1")

The uncertainty on the type of fish comes because I am living in
Japan. I knew that tetras/guppies/goldfish would all get along, and
with my limited Japanese, I communicated that I wanted 2-4 more fish.
As a result, I got the "sucker" and 2 other fish with their assurance
that the fish would get along, and they do. I'm pretty sure the
guppies were one male and one female because the shop insisted I buy
in pairs.

I've been feeding Tetra flake food and small green pellets to the
"sucker" fish.

I've had the fish for about 2 weeks, and this morning, both guppies
were dead. I found them dead together, slightly underneath the log
where the sucker fish lives. I'm completely stumped as to why both
fish were dead on the same day in the same location. They didn't seem
to have any problems: no ich, no weird colors, they ate just fine, but
not too much.

Does anyone have any ideas?

I appreciate your time and expertise.

N

Christ where to start.
If my maths is correct, simply put my friend, you have over stocked your
tank, by a huge margin. Take most of your fish back to the shop before they
all die, or have a good tampura batter ready, because that's all they'll be
good for.

The 'rough' rule of thumb is 1 inch of fish per gallon, and you have about
4.5 gallons. Which is not even enough for your 5 tetras when fully grown. I
do not know about levels of nitrite and nitrate in mg/L, I just go by zero
tolerance. The others in this group will tell you better, but be prepared to
go home and do a water change immediately.

Without the exact fish types I cannot be sure, but
1) If the blue fish is a member of the goldfish family, it's a cold
waterfish, I would imagine it will live for a short while but will die of
stress as well. If not, a blue fish that swims slowly and likes to hide,
Discus maybe? does it have a deep body? If so get it out of there! You need
at least 20 gallons per fish with that one.
2) The sucker fish as you put it, have a nasty habit of becoming very big
very quick (depends on the type). Look up plecostomus pictures on the web it
will give you an idea.
3) Guppies you need to out number the males by females or the horny bugger
will stress her to death.

Have you read up much on aquariums? I would suggest maybe reading this site
at least half a dozen times. I'm not an expert by any stretch of the
imagination, but I'm experienced with the fish I keep, and I still read bits
of it every now and then.
http://www.thekrib.com/

I would seriously double check the info given to you by your LFS, they seem
a bit dubious to me.

OK get ready for more detailed responses than mine.

A


"nobbody" wrote in message
om...
Greetings,
[... nightmare snipped ...]

On 14 Jul 2004 00:37:35 -0700, nobbody wrote:
Greetings,

Hi there,

You've already had a couple of good responses but I'd like to
throw my 2d in because yours is such an extreme case and I'd
like to add weight to everything people are saying.

Here goes... have a feeling this will be a long post!

I have a small freshwater tank, approx 12.0" x 11.5" x 7.5". The
water temp is 27 degrees C. Gravel bottom, 3 live plants in small
pots, and the filter is one where the water is sucked in, goes through
a charcoal bag and then waterfalls into the tank.

This is not a small tank, it's a TINY tank.
It's going to hold 4 gallons or so.

Now, that's not to say it's a useless tank or you can't enjoy it.
But you really do have to be careful - things go wrong very
quickly in a small amount of water (the bigger the tank, the
more gradual the changes). I would start with a 2 foot long
tank with built in filter if you can afford it - I had a Rekord 70
and it's done me proud.

Ok. Now your tank is a foot long and holds 4 gallons.
When it comes to stocking tanks there are two rules of thumb
and I always aspire to be somewhere between the two.

The first is that you should have no more than one inch of
fish length for every gallon of water. This means that
when you consider the full grown length of your fish,
if you line them up end to end, the line is no longer
than 4 inches long. (Ignore the tail, just count head
and body).

The second is that you should have no more than one inch
of fish length for every inch of tank length - so again
taking the full grown length of all your fish, if you
line them up end to end and ignore tails, the line is
no more than 12 inches long.

Where you fall between these two rules of thumb is dependent
on one other key thing; filtration. For example in my 4ft
tank I have two filters, a little more than I need for the
size of tank, so I can get away with overstocking slightly
and know the waste can be filtered and the water will be
good. However in your case, you describe a charcoal bag.
I'm not familiar with them and don't know how powerful this
kind of filter is, but it doesn't sound great, so I would
aim for the 4 inch end of things, and no higher.

Personally if it was my own tank I'd get a box corner filter
which is a small plastic box, driven by an airpump and air
line (which you also have to buy). You fill it with floss
and it sits in the corner and bubbles away. A small one
(a few quid in cost) can handle about 10 gallons, so you know
the filtration is adequate. I use one in my axolotl tank
and it works a treat. You should just about have room for one.

Here are the test readings from the water:

pH = 7.4,
Ammonia = 0.0 mg/L
Nitrate = 2.0 mg/L
Nitrite = Somewhere between 2.0 and 5.0 mg/L

Ok. You probably know from the other responses but the
nitrite level is shockingly high, so high it will kill
your fish. For now and until you can fix things, I
would do a huge water change - 50-70% even - but of
course make sure the water is dechlorinated and at the
same temperature as the rest of the tank.

You need to take some other actisons though with regard
to reducing the fish load and possibly increasing filtration.

The fish tank was stocked with the following:

5 Neon Tetras
5 small Goldfish (about 1/2")
2 Guppies
2 ??? (about 1.5 ", non-aggressive, swim slowly, blue, shaped like
goldfish--i.e. not an angelfish or gourani etc, like to hide in the
plants)
1 Spotted "sucker" fish (about 1")

Good grief. How do they all fit in?!

Seriously, you mustn't keep that many fish together.
Take as many as you can back to the store, because you will kill
them - and I'm sure you don't want that, as you have asked for help.

As to what to keep in the future - Is your tank heated in any way?
You have a mix of fish there.

Neons and guppies are tropical fish, however they have very different
needs. The neons need soft, acidic water. The guppies need harder
water and would probably benefit from adding some salt (although with
a tiny tank it might be hard to get the amount right). I would not
keep guppies and neons together - I'm sure you *can* but then you are
not tending to the individual needs of each kind of fish. And as
guppies are prolific breeders, you should either keep all male or
all female - or one male to three females MINIMUM (or the women
get harrassed terribly).

Are the blue fish Blue Tetras? http://www.gorge.org/fish/what.shtml#scis
has photos (as I have some myself). These are tropicals and will go
well with neons.

The goldfish are cold water fish. Usually they get pretty big,
and they produce so much waste that a different rule applies to
stocking them; one inch of fish to FIVE gallons of water. So really
they have no place at all in a tank as small as yours; sorry.

The sucker fish - what shape and colour is it? Search on plecostomus,
ancistrus, otocinclus for photos and more information. If you've got
a pleco it will grow - mine outgrew a 2 foot tank after a year and
after three years is 7-8" long. He can tolerate tropical or cold
water, but he will get big, produce loads of waste (a drain on your
filtration) and after he gets a bit bigger, stop bothering to eat
algae and start needing his own special food.

The uncertainty on the type of fish comes because I am living in
Japan. I knew that tetras/guppies/goldfish would all get along, and
with my limited Japanese, I communicated that I wanted 2-4 more fish.
As a result, I got the "sucker" and 2 other fish with their assurance
that the fish would get along, and they do. I'm pretty sure the
guppies were one male and one female because the shop insisted I buy
in pairs.

Tetras, guppies and goldfish all have very different needs. They
may get along in terms of aggression, but they should be housed
separately where you can give them what they need. Sorry!

I've had the fish for about 2 weeks, and this morning, both guppies
were dead. I found them dead together, slightly underneath the log
where the sucker fish lives. I'm completely stumped as to why both
fish were dead on the same day in the same location. They didn't seem
to have any problems: no ich, no weird colors, they ate just fine, but
not too much.

They are both dead because they were poisoned by the nitrite.
More fish will die if you don't act fast.

If you've only had them two weeks, the tank is still cycling
(read http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html to learn more)
and you should only have one fish in there while the cycle is
established (this will take around a month, but keep testing!)

Here is what I would do in your shoes:

Take all the fish back to the fish shop, and get one male betta
or two female bettas to live in the tank - they can do this with
no additional heating or filtration as long as the tank is somewhere
reasonably warm.

OR

Take all the fish bar the neons back to the shop, and keep the neons.
Put some more plants in, and they will look beautiful darting in and
out of the leaves. Think about heating the tank or ensuring it is
somewhere warm and stable in temperature.

OR

Take all the fish back to the shop, and get a small group (4-5)
white cloud minnows. They are not so fussy about temperature,
so you'll probably be fine as you are.

OR

Take all the fish back to the fish shop, up the filtration by getting
an airpump driven corner box filter, then get maybe one or two
tropical fish that you really like. Make sure they are not fish which
get more than 2.5 inches, make sure they are not going to fight (get
a pair) and really read up on their needs. Post back here to check
what other people think of your choice and any advice they can offer
because some fish are fine in a small tank and some aren't. Think about
heating the tank or ensuring it's somewhere warm and stable in
temperature.

Don't look at coldwater fish, because apart from white cloud minnows
I can't think of any which are small enough for your tank.

There is probably already enough waste in the tank to keep the
cycle going, even after a large water change, but you could always
keep just one small fish for now, then when the cycle is complete,
take it back as well and then get a fish or two that you really want.

Welcome to fishkeeping - I'm sorry you're having such a hard
time, but as you're learning there are lots of things to consider.
Stick at it and please give us an update on how you get along.

--
Flash . o O ( www.gorge.org/fish )

a 12", by 12", by 8" tank, is less than a 10 gallon, and you've got 25" of
fish in it... 5 1/2" goldies????

|| Here are the test readings from the water:
||
|| pH = 7.4,
|| Ammonia = 0.0 mg/L
|| Nitrate = 2.0 mg/L
|| Nitrite = Somewhere between 2.0 and 5.0 mg/L

Started out with bad water....

|| The fish tank was stocked with the following:
||
|| 5 Neon Tetras
|| 5 small Goldfish (about 1/2")
|| 2 Guppies
||
|| ALSO...
||
|| 2 ??? (about 1.5 ", non-aggressive, swim slowly, blue, shaped like
|| goldfish--i.e. not an angelfish or gourani etc, like to hide in the
|| plants)
||
|| 1 Spotted "sucker" fish (about 1")

My guess is you've got several problems, overstocking, not cycled....

|| Does anyone have any ideas?
||
|| I appreciate your time and expertise.
||
|| N

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