Skin Irritation

Actually, my fish are not cichlids, they are local wild fish.

I've got two tanks that are fully cycled with ammonia and nitrites safely
under control. Nitrates are also within acceptable range. Besides the water
being a little hard and some variations on alkalinity, everything is pretty
well within range.

But while my fish look great, and behave and eat normally, I still see them
occasionally flashing against decorations and sometimes doing some sort of
shaking motion.

I was just wondering if there is something else wrong with the water, or
perhaps it is normal for this to happen from time to time with fish that are
kept in an aquarium.

Jonathan

Actually, my fish are not cichlids, they are local wild fish.

I've got two tanks that are fully cycled with ammonia and nitrites
safely under control. Nitrates are also within acceptable range.
Besides the water being a little hard and some variations on
alkalinity, everything is pretty well within range.

But while my fish look great, and behave and eat normally, I still
see them occasionally flashing against decorations and sometimes
doing some sort of shaking motion.

I was just wondering if there is something else wrong with the water,
or perhaps it is normal for this to happen from time to time with
fish that are kept in an aquarium.

Jonathan

First, most local wild caught bass, bluegill, sunfish, are all cichlids...
just so you'll know.. Not sure what you have, but since they _ARE_ wild
caught, they could have any possible pathogen allowed in nature....

I'd probably be curious to what water parameters they are used to... I'd get
a local water sample and check it out, compare it to your water and see
what's what....

Could be the nitrates that you think is ok... if you don't have plants, it's
not ok.... acceptable range for you or acceptable range for them?

Post your water parameters and let some gurus break them down... not me,
I"m still learning....

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??

RedForeman,

Could be the nitrates that you think is ok... if you don't have plants,
it's
not ok.... acceptable range for you or acceptable range for them?

Previously, nitrites were through the roof as I tried to get the tank fully
cycled with fish in it. During that time, they all looked and acted fine.
Now nitrites show up as zero. I'm very confident that is not a problem at
this stage.

Post your water parameters and let some gurus break them down... not me,
I"m still learning....

I'll see if I can get some more accurate readings.

Jonathan

"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message
...


Actually, my fish are not cichlids, they are local wild fish.

I've got two tanks that are fully cycled with ammonia and nitrites
safely under control. Nitrates are also within acceptable range.
Besides the water being a little hard and some variations on
alkalinity, everything is pretty well within range.

But while my fish look great, and behave and eat normally, I still
see them occasionally flashing against decorations and sometimes
doing some sort of shaking motion.

I was just wondering if there is something else wrong with the water,
or perhaps it is normal for this to happen from time to time with
fish that are kept in an aquarium.

Jonathan

First, most local wild caught bass, bluegill, sunfish, are all
cichlids...
just so you'll know.. Not sure what you have, but since they _ARE_ wild
caught, they could have any possible pathogen allowed in nature....

I'd probably be curious to what water parameters they are used to...
I'd get
a local water sample and check it out, compare it to your water and see
what's what....

Could be the nitrates that you think is ok... if you don't have plants,
it's
not ok.... acceptable range for you or acceptable range for them?

Post your water parameters and let some gurus break them down... not
me,
I"m still learning....

--
RedForeman ©®

While my books are very old, they do list Sunfish as belonging to
Centrarchidae family (not Cichlidae). North America has about 40
species. The common Sunfish we talk about come from the Lepomis and
Mesogonistius Genus.

My understanding is that fish like these migrated into marine conditions
(a long time ago) to eventually become the cichlids we have now,
scattered around most of the world, but then my books are old, but not
that old ;~)

It was just a technical point ), I have nothing to add to Red's
excellent advice.
--
http://www.netmax.tk/

"NetMax" wrote in message
. ..
"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message
...


Actually, my fish are not cichlids, they are local wild fish.

I've got two tanks that are fully cycled with ammonia and nitrites
safely under control. Nitrates are also within acceptable range.
Besides the water being a little hard and some variations on
alkalinity, everything is pretty well within range.

But while my fish look great, and behave and eat normally, I still
see them occasionally flashing against decorations and sometimes
doing some sort of shaking motion.

I was just wondering if there is something else wrong with the water,
or perhaps it is normal for this to happen from time to time with
fish that are kept in an aquarium.

Jonathan

First, most local wild caught bass, bluegill, sunfish, are all
cichlids...
just so you'll know.. Not sure what you have, but since they _ARE_ wild
caught, they could have any possible pathogen allowed in nature....

I'd probably be curious to what water parameters they are used to...
I'd get
a local water sample and check it out, compare it to your water and see
what's what....

Could be the nitrates that you think is ok... if you don't have plants,
it's
not ok.... acceptable range for you or acceptable range for them?

Post your water parameters and let some gurus break them down... not
me,
I"m still learning....

--
RedForeman ©®

While my books are very old, they do list Sunfish as belonging to
Centrarchidae family (not Cichlidae). North America has about 40
species. The common Sunfish we talk about come from the Lepomis and
Mesogonistius Genus.

My understanding is that fish like these migrated into marine conditions
(a long time ago) to eventually become the cichlids we have now,
scattered around most of the world, but then my books are old, but not
that old ;~)

It was just a technical point ), I have nothing to add to Red's
excellent advice.
--
http://www.netmax.tk/

The classification is still correct, Netmax. Cichlids and Centrarchids are
actually not even closely related. Their physical appearance is similar
because they fill similar niches. You are also right about current
thinkingof the origin of cichlids, they apparently were originally sal****er
fishes that migrated into rivers, lakes etc. I believe that the marine
damselfishes are the closest relatives to the cichlids.
Saro

RedForeman,

Post your water parameters and let some gurus break them down...

Okay, here are my water parameters:

Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrate: 40ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Hardess: 200ppm
Total Alkalinity: 130ppm
pH: 7.2

Note 1: Again, the fish appear healthy in every way except for an
occassional skin irritation.

Note 2: These measurements were done with test strips and so are estimates
as far as I'm concerned.

Note 3: The fish have all seen ammonia spikes 1ppm and nitrite spikes
10.0 showing no worse symptoms. In fact, the symptoms appear worse after
water changes. I am using city water and my pipes are older.

And, in case anyone's interested, my current tanks contain: Green Sunfish,
Large Mouth Bass, Bluegill, and Black Crappies (White Bass, Perch, and
possible a small Walleye to come). I have a 50 and 125 gallon tank--the
water parameters are from my 125 gallon.

Thanks.

Jonathan

RedForeman,

Post your water parameters and let some gurus break them down...

Okay, here are my water parameters:

Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrate: 40ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Hardess: 200ppm
Total Alkalinity: 130ppm
pH: 7.2

Note 1: Again, the fish appear healthy in every way except for an
occassional skin irritation.

Note 2: These measurements were done with test strips and so are
estimates as far as I'm concerned.

Note 3: The fish have all seen ammonia spikes 1ppm and nitrite
spikes
10.0 showing no worse symptoms. In fact, the symptoms appear worse
after water changes. I am using city water and my pipes are older.

And, in case anyone's interested, my current tanks contain: Green
Sunfish, Large Mouth Bass, Bluegill, and Black Crappies (White Bass,
Perch, and possible a small Walleye to come). I have a 50 and 125
gallon tank--the water parameters are from my 125 gallon.

Thanks.

Jonathan

Other than your nitrates being perfect for a planted tank, I dont' think you
even have a problem... Do you have plants?
Have you tested your water from the tap?? Reason is, if your tap water is
significanly different, you'll know it's IN the tank... If your tap water
tests the same, then the reason it's worse in the tank is your starting out
with waste water, and it only gets worse....

Another thought, unless it's an internal thing, like parasites, and
sometimes wild fish can carry them and never be susceptible to any
problems... then one day, it just flops over. My best guess would be, if
it's a new tank, it's just adjusting... if it's an old tank, and there are
NO other obvious signs, changes or reasons you could think of.. maybe it
just had an itch, and had to scratch it... fish do feel..

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!! ==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø


is that better??

RedForeman,

Other than your nitrates being perfect for a planted tank, I dont' think
you
even have a problem... Do you have plants?
Have you tested your water from the tap?? Reason is, if your tap water is
significanly different, you'll know it's IN the tank... If your tap water
tests the same, then the reason it's worse in the tank is your starting
out
with waste water, and it only gets worse....

Another thought, unless it's an internal thing, like parasites, and
sometimes wild fish can carry them and never be susceptible to any
problems... then one day, it just flops over. My best guess would be, if
it's a new tank, it's just adjusting... if it's an old tank, and there are
NO other obvious signs, changes or reasons you could think of.. maybe it
just had an itch, and had to scratch it... fish do feel..

I do not have live plants in the tank. I didn't quite follow your comments
about water being worse in the tank.

There are no indications of parasites and all fish seem to have the problem
equally. This tank is newer but I have an older one and things are pretty
much the same.

I guess I was just more curious of a more general question of if this is
normal, or there is simply something bad in my water. I'll assume by the
comments so far that you don't see this in your fish. I wonder if others
with the type of fish I have see the same problem.

Thanks.

Jonathan

Jonathan Wood wrote in message ...
RedForeman,

Other than your nitrates being perfect for a planted tank, I dont' think
you
even have a problem... Do you have plants?
Have you tested your water from the tap?? Reason is, if your tap water
is
significanly different, you'll know it's IN the tank... If your tap water
tests the same, then the reason it's worse in the tank is your starting
out
with waste water, and it only gets worse....

Another thought, unless it's an internal thing, like parasites, and
sometimes wild fish can carry them and never be susceptible to any
problems... then one day, it just flops over. My best guess would be, if
it's a new tank, it's just adjusting... if it's an old tank, and there
are
NO other obvious signs, changes or reasons you could think of.. maybe it
just had an itch, and had to scratch it... fish do feel..

I do not have live plants in the tank. I didn't quite follow your comments
about water being worse in the tank.

There are no indications of parasites and all fish seem to have the problem
equally. This tank is newer but I have an older one and things are pretty
much the same.

I guess I was just more curious of a more general question of if this is
normal, or there is simply something bad in my water. I'll assume by the
comments so far that you don't see this in your fish. I wonder if others
with the type of fish I have see the same problem.

Thanks.

Jonathan


My africans do this as well. It's not a normal thing though. having said
that there is no one particular cause for the problem. some people say it is
a result of a sudden change of water conditions, particularly hardness, but
I don't really agree with that in my case. others say it is due to a large
amount Iron and other heavy metals in the water, and others think that it's
due to plain old nitrite and ammonia presence. parasites will certainly
cause it, especially ich and flukes..

it's annoying and frustrating that I can't make the water conditions perfect
for my fish.

this is the treatment that I use on my tanks that seems to work for a while,
but the fish tend to return to scratching after a while:

1. treat with an anti-parasite medication.
2. add activated carbon to your filtration to get rid of any nasty heavy
metals etc in the water.
3. I add a product called "easy life filter fluid medium" that says it has
101 benefits, and it seems to make the fish a little happier.


good luck, and if you find a new cause/cure please let me know.

"Jonathan Wood" wrote in message
ink.net...
RedForeman,

Post your water parameters and let some gurus break them down...

Okay, here are my water parameters:

Ammonia: 0.25
Nitrate: 40ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Hardess: 200ppm
Total Alkalinity: 130ppm
pH: 7.2

Note 1: Again, the fish appear healthy in every way except for an
occassional skin irritation.

Note 2: These measurements were done with test strips and so are estimates
as far as I'm concerned.

Note 3: The fish have all seen ammonia spikes 1ppm and nitrite spikes
10.0 showing no worse symptoms. In fact, the symptoms appear worse after
water changes. I am using city water and my pipes are older.

And, in case anyone's interested, my current tanks contain: Green Sunfish,
Large Mouth Bass, Bluegill, and Black Crappies (White Bass, Perch, and
possible a small Walleye to come). I have a 50 and 125 gallon tank--the
water parameters are from my 125 gallon.

Thanks.

Jonathan


------------------------

A few comments:

1. You really want ammonia to be zero. If you have a chronic ammonia
problem you probably do not have adequate biological filtration. Among
other things chronic exposure to ammonia can cause a degradation of the
gills functionality--leading to flashing and gasping. It may not be a skin
problem, but a gill problem. Do your fish have crystal clear eyes? No
small opaque or discolored spots?

2. Your nitrate is ok, but in a well maintained tank could easily be less.
Chronic exposure to elevated (for your particular fish) nitrate levels is
not good. Not sure what your particular fish want in terms of nitrate,
though.

3. "Previously, nitrites were through the roof as I tried to get the tank
fully cycled with fish in it. During that time, they all looked and acted
fine. The fish have all seen ammonia spikes 1ppm and nitrite spikes
10.0."

I assume you mean your current fish were in the tank during these spikes.

These are some pretty poisonous conditions to put your fish through. This
could quite easily have long term health effects (even if they lived through
it ok at the time). Your fish (like you) have an immune system. If you
continually overwork that system it will eventually break down, leading to a
whole host of seemingly unrelated problems.

4. This is obvious, but often overlooked--do you have good temperature
control? Adequately powered heater or chiller? You say you have "local
wild fish." If they are temperate you probably need a chiller. Temperature
and/or pH fluctuations are common causes of parasitic infections.

BTW--medicate the tank as a last resort. Find and fix the underlying cause,
and medication will become unnecessary.