Planted tank help - Nutrafin CO2 Natural Plant System (Hagen) ??

I'm trying to develop a planted tank in my 55-gal community tank, but my plants don't seem to be flourishing like I want. Right now I have 4 clumps of microsword (still alive but not spreading) for foreground plants, hornwort (I tried anchoring clumps in the gravel, but it rotted, so now it's just floating around the tank, making a mess by fragmenting everywhere), 2 bunches of red ludwigia (one rotted to nothing and the other seems to be heading that way), 2 banana plants (the leaves are turning black and breaking), and one java fern (seems to holding it's own, but 2 leaves are black, not green). I add liquid plant fertilizer after each weekly water change, but it doesn't seem to be helping.

INFO: My tank size is a 55 gal. I have one-bulb hood with a 40-watt 4-foot fluorescent light bulb. My substrate is just small (pea-sized) gravel. I do not have CO2. I'm planning on mixing in some type of plant substrate like Floramax for Planted Aquariums (Question: how much for my size aquarium ? www.thatfishplace.com sells a 40-lb bag for $28). My water source is well-water, which is run through a water softener because of extreme hardness (iron) in our well.

My main question however is about CO2. First, should I have it ? Second, if yes, why are they so expensive ? The CO2 systems I see online and in catalogues seem to be very expensive. However, I saw one online (again at www.thatfishplace.com) by Hagen that seems very inexpensive and I was wondering what other people's opinions on it are. The product is Nutrafin CO2 Natural Plant System (Hagen) and can be seen at http://www.thatpetplace.com/MainPro/...71+0966&PgNo=1

Any help would be appreciated for this planted-tank newbie. I'm so inspired by people's planted aquarium tank pictures on different websites. I'd love to get my tank to even half that !

Thanks - Shawn

"Shawn P. Good" wrote:

My main question however is about CO2. First, should I have it?
Second, if yes, why are they so expensive ? The CO2 systems I see
online and in catalogues seem to be very expensive. However, I saw
one online (again at www.thatfishplace.com) by Hagen that seems very
inexpensive and I was wondering what other people's opinions on it
are. The product is Nutrafin CO2 Natural Plant System (Hagen)

CO2 is rarely a bad thing for a planted tank, so you should at least
try it to see if it gives you a big benefit.

The price differences you see are between 'pro' systems versus
do-it-yourself systems. A pro system uses cylinders of CO2 gas,
regulators, and other components. In other words, it's a serious chunk
of hardware. It gives you consistent output, is useful for large
tanks, and is relatively maintenance free.

The DIY systems use yeast and sugar in common plastic bottles, and not
much else. This works for smaller tanks and is *very* cheap. It's not
as consistent, is a little harder to control, and requires more
maintenance. A net search on DIY CO2 will answer all your questions
about this method. It's very easy.

My advice would be to try the DIY method, since the cost of entry is
so low, and see how much of a difference it makes in your plants after
a month or two. If you like the plant results, then consider if the
cost of a canister system is worth it to you.

The Hagen system you mention is nothing more than a commercialized
version of the DIY systems. Basically, it's a plastic bottle and some
pre-packaged yeast. The one very nice thing it has is the diffuser
(which you can buy separately for under $10). This is the part that
goes in your tank and actually lets the CO2 bubbles dissolve into the
water. I used one here for several months (I no longer use CO2) and it
worked very well.

--
www.ericschreiber.com

"Shawn P. Good" wrote in message
...
I'm trying to develop a planted tank in my 55-gal community tank, but my
plants don't seem to be flourishing like I want. Right now I have 4
clumps of microsword (still alive but not spreading) for foreground
plants, hornwort (I tried anchoring clumps in the gravel, but it rotted,
so now it's just floating around the tank, making a mess by fragmenting
everywhere), 2 bunches of red ludwigia (one rotted to nothing and the
other seems to be heading that way), 2 banana plants (the leaves are
turning black and breaking), and one java fern (seems to holding it's
own, but 2 leaves are black, not green). I add liquid plant fertilizer
after each weekly water change, but it doesn't seem to be helping.

INFO: My tank size is a 55 gal. I have one-bulb hood with a 40-watt
4-foot fluorescent light bulb. My substrate is just small (pea-sized)
gravel. I do not have CO2. I'm planning on mixing in some type of plant
substrate like Floramax for Planted Aquariums (Question: how much for my
size aquarium ? www.thatfishplace.com sells a 40-lb bag for $28). My
water source is well-water, which is run through a water softener because
of extreme hardness (iron) in our well.

My main question however is about CO2. First, should I have it ?
Second, if yes, why are they so expensive ? The CO2 systems I see online
and in catalogues seem to be very expensive. However, I saw one online
(again at www.thatfishplace.com) by Hagen that seems very inexpensive and
I was wondering what other people's opinions on it are. The product is
Nutrafin CO2 Natural Plant System (Hagen) and can be seen at
http://www.thatpetplace.com/MainPro/...71+0966&PgNo=1

Any help would be appreciated for this planted-tank newbie. I'm so
inspired by people's planted aquarium tank pictures on different
websites. I'd love to get my tank to even half that !

Thanks - Shawn

You have a bit of a battle ahead of you Shawn. The ingredients for good
plant growth are adequate to high light, soft to neutral water and lots
of nutrients. Your light level (40w/55g = 0.72w/g) is low, and distance
from light to substrate is not short, so results will be modest when/if
the plants start growing. If everything else was good, many of your
plants would adapt and show reasonable growth eventually, but everything
else is not good. Well-water has too many minerals in it and it
interferes with plant growth. Zero minerals is no good either, so you
want some. Your water softener adds salt, at a ratio which depends on
the amount of calcium being removed. Since you mentioned that your water
is very hard, then the quantity of salt being added might be significant,
and plants do not like salt. If your softener is working well, it might
be removing too much minerals they need. As well your pH is probably
quite high (this is unchanged by the softener), and not all plants do
well in high pH.

Summary: post your well water parameters (pH, gH and kH), increase your
light levels (a must), and research plants which do well in high pH. Do
you have any convenient sources for soft water?

In regards to CO2 injection, I think this would certainly help your
situation. It will lower your pH a bit, but it will not give you the
results you see, with tanks running with soft water and lower kH levels.
The Nutrafin CO2 injector system is rated for 10 to 20g. If your other
parameters were all good, you would see some difference running your 55g
on 1 injector, but given your other challenges, I'd definitely get 2, and
alternate their filling. Alternately, look into the DIYs. There are
many designs on the web, and I think you will need a fairly 'industrial'
strength setting to kick your tank into the high gear that you sound like
you want.

If your plant expectations are modest, adding another 4' polo light and
CO2 might do the trick. Go with a shop light fixture (2x40W) to get a
cheap lighting upgrade. I see you cross-posted to r.a.f.p. That's
probably the best place for the advice you need. Best wishes.

NetMax

Ok, here's what I've noticed after doing a do it yourself co2 injector
set up.

What I did was get a 2 litre pop bottle, drill a hole in the cap, feed
in some tubing and put a bubble diffuser on the other end. Into the
bottle I added 6 cups of warm water, 3/4 cups of sugar, and a teaspoon
of yeast. Put my hand over the cover, shook the bejesus out of it,
screwed the cap on tightly, and moved the tube through the cap so that
it was suspended in the air above yeasty solution. I set the diffuser
into the kitchen sink before checking things out in the aquarium for
safety's sake.

Round one: no bubbles. :O(
Round two: increased the yeast to an entire package (about 1
tablespoon). One hour later, VAVOOM! Bubbles in the sink! Took the
contraption to the tank, put in the difuser, waited. Worked for 3
days. Then went poof and died, dumped the contents, waited until
payday to go buy more yeast and try again. I think the reason the
diffuser didn't work so well first time around, was because I used too
much yeast and it fermented/played out too quickly.
Round three: changed the recipe slightly. Added 3/4 cups sugar, 6
cups water, and only 1/2 package of yeast (about 1/2 tablespoon).
Waited one hour...bubbles in the sink....TO THE AQUARIUM, Batman! The
thing's been sending a clumpage of bubbles out on average about once
every 7-10 seconds for 7 days now. I've noticed that the java ferns
have suddenly started sending off little brown thingies on the tips of
their leaves that have since become baby java ferns. Other plants
have grown slightly more rapidly, colour is definitely deeper, and I
get bubbles! Yes, bubbles! My plants are pearling! I keep an eye on
the diffuser, when the bubbling stops, time to make a new batch. I've
heard that some people will get a bottle ready and on the go for when
the bottle being used starts to peter out. Dunno...

I'm new hey? Fish I got a handle on. The added co2 has increased the
acidity of the tank just slightly, but nothing the fish don't seem to
mind. Watch the reactor! I've heard horror stories about yeast doin
stuff that flows into the tank, tank water flowing back up the
hose...I've just been using basic common sense, and my visual senses.

It's cheap, it probably isn't the best way to introduce co2 into an
aquarium set up, but if you're just looking to experiment and "play"
(the fun part of the hobby for me), give it a try.

I even think the krib has some stuff on how to make them, problems
people have encountered, stuff like that. And I'm sure there are
people here who've had experience with both the big high tech set up
and the coke bottle affair (although I prefer Pepsi).

Cheers!

Maq
aka Pete

Maqua wrote in message
m...
Ok, here's what I've noticed after doing a do it yourself co2 injector
set up.
...

You, my friend, have been engaged in some kind of intensive
wheel-reinvention.

Memo: Check krib FIRST.

The essentials: Use a juice bottle - they are less likely to collapse (or
tip over!) than a soda bottle. Do not use very hot water as it will weaken
the plastic bottle as well as killing the yeast. You only need a pinch of
yeast - maybe an 1/8 tsp - it is a living organism and will multiply
(provided you haven't killed it with hot water). I find that 1/8 tsp yeast
to 1.5 cups of sugar will last from one weekly water change to the next.

Still, nothing like learning the empirical way, eh?

kush

"Dunter Powries" fech.redcap@spedlin wrote in message
...
Maqua wrote in message
m...
Ok, here's what I've noticed after doing a do it yourself co2 injector
set up.
...

You, my friend, have been engaged in some kind of intensive
wheel-reinvention.

Memo: Check krib FIRST.

The essentials: Use a juice bottle - they are less likely to collapse (or
tip over!) than a soda bottle. Do not use very hot water as it will
weaken
the plastic bottle as well as killing the yeast. You only need a pinch of
yeast - maybe an 1/8 tsp - it is a living organism and will multiply
(provided you haven't killed it with hot water). I find that 1/8 tsp
yeast
to 1.5 cups of sugar will last from one weekly water change to the next.

Still, nothing like learning the empirical way, eh?

kush

That's the recipe I use, but I add a tiny bit (1/16 tsp?) of
baking soda. It neutralizes the acid waste from the yeast
and seems to prolong their lifespan by several days, IME.

-coelacanth

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:28:49 GMT, "Dunter Powries"
fech.redcap@spedlin wrote:

Maqua wrote in message
om...
Ok, here's what I've noticed after doing a do it yourself co2 injector
set up.
...

You, my friend, have been engaged in some kind of intensive
wheel-reinvention.

Memo: Check krib FIRST.

The essentials: Use a juice bottle - they are less likely to collapse (or
tip over!) than a soda bottle. Do not use very hot water as it will weaken
the plastic bottle as well as killing the yeast. You only need a pinch of
yeast - maybe an 1/8 tsp - it is a living organism and will multiply
(provided you haven't killed it with hot water). I find that 1/8 tsp yeast
to 1.5 cups of sugar will last from one weekly water change to the next.

Still, nothing like learning the empirical way, eh?

I reverse-engineered the Hagen ratios for their CO2 system:
4oz sugar
add 2ml (by volume - I used a Tetra/Wardley pH test tube) wine yeast
add 4ml baking soda
fill to 16oz line with lukewarm water (not tank water)
leave 4oz empty air

Shake a very tiny bit to get things moving (I tipped it upside down
and back - no more) and hook 'er up - I had my 2L pop bottle bubbling
steadily for about 2 months.

Id like to try this one. can you explain how and where i should conect the
tubing? How can you regulate the CO2 that gointo the tank?
Thanks

--
Paulo
"Rikko" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:28:49 GMT, "Dunter Powries"
fech.redcap@spedlin wrote:

Maqua wrote in message
om...
Ok, here's what I've noticed after doing a do it yourself co2 injector
set up.
...

You, my friend, have been engaged in some kind of intensive
wheel-reinvention.

Memo: Check krib FIRST.

The essentials: Use a juice bottle - they are less likely to collapse
(or
tip over!) than a soda bottle. Do not use very hot water as it will
weaken
the plastic bottle as well as killing the yeast. You only need a pinch
of
yeast - maybe an 1/8 tsp - it is a living organism and will multiply
(provided you haven't killed it with hot water). I find that 1/8 tsp
yeast
to 1.5 cups of sugar will last from one weekly water change to the next.

Still, nothing like learning the empirical way, eh?

I reverse-engineered the Hagen ratios for their CO2 system:
4oz sugar
add 2ml (by volume - I used a Tetra/Wardley pH test tube) wine yeast
add 4ml baking soda
fill to 16oz line with lukewarm water (not tank water)
leave 4oz empty air

Shake a very tiny bit to get things moving (I tipped it upside down
and back - no more) and hook 'er up - I had my 2L pop bottle bubbling
steadily for about 2 months.

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 23:21:04 -0500, "Paulo" wrote:

Id like to try this one. can you explain how and where i should conect the
tubing? How can you regulate the CO2 that gointo the tank?
Thanks

If you choose to use a pop bottle (I did, simply because it was
convenient), find an airline hose connector/adapter. I found a joiner
laying around (so you can join 2 pieces of airline into one large one
- no valves or T-joints or anything) and use that. I drilled a hole in
the lid of the pop bottle that just fit the joiner (but the "lip" at
the center of the joiner wouldn't pass through) and fastened it with
epoxy glue. It's airtight, strong as hell, and simple to connect.

As for regulating - a lot of websites give advanced systems using
pressure regulators et al.. Airline hosing and the glue job I did on
the pop bottle probably wouldn't take a whole lot of pressure, so I
just let it bubble freely into the tank - any nondiffused bubbles just
overflow the diffuser and go to the surface.

Total cost (assuming I didn't have my materials laying around) was 20
cents for the pop bottle deposit, a buck for airline hosing, and 50
cents for the joiner.
The diffuser is another story and I'm still thinking of ways to make a
cheap, simple one. The powerhead-driven one just doesn't appeal to me.

I find it very hard to believe you had this going for 2 months!!!!!
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**




"Rikko" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:28:49 GMT, "Dunter Powries"
fech.redcap@spedlin wrote:

Maqua wrote in message
om...
Ok, here's what I've noticed after doing a do it yourself co2 injector
set up.
...

You, my friend, have been engaged in some kind of intensive
wheel-reinvention.

Memo: Check krib FIRST.

The essentials: Use a juice bottle - they are less likely to collapse
(or
tip over!) than a soda bottle. Do not use very hot water as it will
weaken
the plastic bottle as well as killing the yeast. You only need a pinch
of
yeast - maybe an 1/8 tsp - it is a living organism and will multiply
(provided you haven't killed it with hot water). I find that 1/8 tsp
yeast
to 1.5 cups of sugar will last from one weekly water change to the next.

Still, nothing like learning the empirical way, eh?

I reverse-engineered the Hagen ratios for their CO2 system:
4oz sugar
add 2ml (by volume - I used a Tetra/Wardley pH test tube) wine yeast
add 4ml baking soda
fill to 16oz line with lukewarm water (not tank water)
leave 4oz empty air

Shake a very tiny bit to get things moving (I tipped it upside down
and back - no more) and hook 'er up - I had my 2L pop bottle bubbling
steadily for about 2 months.