ID help on 3 things and I'll throw in a sump design question

I had to help out a friend get some livestock, etc out of his tank. I know
three of the fish but these two I'm not sure of. I'd appreciate the help.
I know I've seen these before while surfing but now that I need to know,
alas I cannot find them. (Yeah I was a bit amiss that he didn't know his
own fish either. No comments please on his lack of knowledge or the risk I
could be taking doing this. )

http://www.geocities.com/bryg30/photopagespiral.html


The third item is a worm I've had for a while. I first saw it a few weeks
back and still do every once in a while. I don't have a pic but shouldn't
need one. Imagine a kit string going in and out of your rocks, rather
slowly. It's very white and very thin. I've seen about 4" of him so far.
What I can discern as his head has no eye, or even a shape change that even
makes it look like a head, like many flatworms (such as
http://www.aecos.com/CPIE/flatworm.jpg) do. It just comes to a point. It
almost looks like a really long tentacle from a spaghetti worm.

Any ideas? Gracias de Texas.


Also, instead of posting again I'll ask here. I'm designing a sump that I
want a protein skimmer an refugium in. I plan on planting the refugium to
further eat up the phosphates. Should I put the protein skimmer before the
refugium or vice versa? Does it really matter.

Thanks again,

Bryan
www.geocities.com/bryg30 for set up info.

Well I just found one of them The black one is Blue Velvet Damselfish. Too
mean for my tank it seems.
http://www.peteducation.com/article....articleid=1732

B

"Bryan" wrote in message
...

I had to help out a friend get some livestock, etc out of his tank. I
know three of the fish but these two I'm not sure of. I'd appreciate the
help. I know I've seen these before while surfing but now that I need to
know, alas I cannot find them. (Yeah I was a bit amiss that he didn't
know his own fish either. No comments please on his lack of knowledge or
the risk I could be taking doing this. )

http://www.geocities.com/bryg30/photopagespiral.html


The third item is a worm I've had for a while. I first saw it a few weeks
back and still do every once in a while. I don't have a pic but shouldn't
need one. Imagine a kit string going in and out of your rocks, rather
slowly. It's very white and very thin. I've seen about 4" of him so far.
What I can discern as his head has no eye, or even a shape change that
even makes it look like a head, like many flatworms (such as
http://www.aecos.com/CPIE/flatworm.jpg) do. It just comes to a point. It
almost looks like a really long tentacle from a spaghetti worm.

Any ideas? Gracias de Texas.


Also, instead of posting again I'll ask here. I'm designing a sump that I
want a protein skimmer an refugium in. I plan on planting the refugium to
further eat up the phosphates. Should I put the protein skimmer before
the refugium or vice versa? Does it really matter.

Thanks again,

Bryan
www.geocities.com/bryg30 for set up info.

"Bryan" wrote on Wed, 30 Aug 2006:
I'm designing a sump that I want a protein skimmer an refugium in. I plan
on planting the refugium to further eat up the phosphates. Should I put
the protein skimmer before the refugium or vice versa? Does it really
matter.

Doesn't really matter, since neither purifies the water with a single pass.
You need tank water to constantly stream past both kinds of "filters", and
each only cleans the water a little bit on a single pass.

But if you could really do it either way, you should put the refugium first
and the skimmer second, for filtering purposes. Both consume many of the
same kinds of organics. Basically, just like on land, plants and animals
are in many ways complementary. In your reef system, the fish and macroalgae
are going to be opposites. Plants consume far more animal waste than just
phosphates. They take in CO2 and make O2; they use nitrates as a fertilizer;
etc. So you want the water entering the refugium to be as "dirty" as possible.
Hence, put it immediately after the tank, and before the skimmer, in your
water flow.

That advice is for the plants. Note that refugiums are also typically sources
of copepods and amphipods, which are fabulous live food for your reef fish and
corals. For that purpose, it's a shame to grow some 'pods in the refug, only
to have them sucked up into a downstream skimmer and killed there. Some
people even claim that the return pump is too much, as it might chop up 'pods
making their way downstream. The absolute ideal for a 'pod-factory refugium
is to have it physically above the main tank, and have a slow flow of water
only gravity-drain into the main tank. That way, the maximum rate of 'pods
can grow in the refug and fall, alive, into the main tank as food.

Summary: it doesn't really matter. But if filtering is your main concern,
might as well put the refugium first, and skimmer second.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
In judo: When pushed, pull; when pulled, push.
In aikido: When pushed, turn; when pulled, enter.

Thank Don,

You made a couple of good points there. I'm going to have to figure out
which is more important. I do want the little 'pods as well. Limited space
(and a wife that decorates) limits me to a sump/refugium fusion. I didn't
really think about 'pods vs the skimmer. To decrease how much I'll have to
clean the skimmer of pod-parts I think it will have to precede the refugium
with the skimmer. ha. But then again, less skimmer material to clean if I
let the plants do some pre-filtering (in theory). I agree that neither gets
everything out. I just want both to work as efficient as possible. It's
good to have other points to consider.

Will putting a filter pad around the pump going to the skimmer alleviate the
concern for the pods?

How did you do yours?

Thanks,

Bryan


"Don Geddis" wrote in message
...
"Bryan" wrote on Wed, 30 Aug 2006:
I'm designing a sump that I want a protein skimmer an refugium in. I
plan
on planting the refugium to further eat up the phosphates. Should I put
the protein skimmer before the refugium or vice versa? Does it really
matter.

Doesn't really matter, since neither purifies the water with a single
pass.
You need tank water to constantly stream past both kinds of "filters", and
each only cleans the water a little bit on a single pass.

But if you could really do it either way, you should put the refugium
first
and the skimmer second, for filtering purposes. Both consume many of the
same kinds of organics. Basically, just like on land, plants and animals
are in many ways complementary. In your reef system, the fish and
macroalgae
are going to be opposites. Plants consume far more animal waste than just
phosphates. They take in CO2 and make O2; they use nitrates as a
fertilizer;
etc. So you want the water entering the refugium to be as "dirty" as
possible.
Hence, put it immediately after the tank, and before the skimmer, in your
water flow.

That advice is for the plants. Note that refugiums are also typically
sources
of copepods and amphipods, which are fabulous live food for your reef fish
and
corals. For that purpose, it's a shame to grow some 'pods in the refug,
only
to have them sucked up into a downstream skimmer and killed there. Some
people even claim that the return pump is too much, as it might chop up
'pods
making their way downstream. The absolute ideal for a 'pod-factory
refugium
is to have it physically above the main tank, and have a slow flow of
water
only gravity-drain into the main tank. That way, the maximum rate of
'pods
can grow in the refug and fall, alive, into the main tank as food.

Summary: it doesn't really matter. But if filtering is your main concern,
might as well put the refugium first, and skimmer second.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis
http://reef.geddis.org/
In judo: When pushed, pull; when pulled, push.
In aikido: When pushed, turn; when pulled, enter.

Velvet Damsel (quite agressive, gets bigger and less
pretty), yellow tail blue damsel, and harmless worm.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Bryan wrote on 8/30/2006 1:46 AM:
I had to help out a friend get some livestock, etc out of his tank. I know
three of the fish but these two I'm not sure of. I'd appreciate the help.
I know I've seen these before while surfing but now that I need to know,
alas I cannot find them. (Yeah I was a bit amiss that he didn't know his
own fish either. No comments please on his lack of knowledge or the risk I
could be taking doing this. )

http://www.geocities.com/bryg30/photopagespiral.html


The third item is a worm I've had for a while. I first saw it a few weeks
back and still do every once in a while. I don't have a pic but shouldn't
need one. Imagine a kit string going in and out of your rocks, rather
slowly. It's very white and very thin. I've seen about 4" of him so far.
What I can discern as his head has no eye, or even a shape change that even
makes it look like a head, like many flatworms (such as
http://www.aecos.com/CPIE/flatworm.jpg) do. It just comes to a point. It
almost looks like a really long tentacle from a spaghetti worm.

Any ideas? Gracias de Texas.


Also, instead of posting again I'll ask here. I'm designing a sump that I
want a protein skimmer an refugium in. I plan on planting the refugium to
further eat up the phosphates. Should I put the protein skimmer before the
refugium or vice versa? Does it really matter.

Thanks again,

Bryan
www.geocities.com/bryg30 for set up info.

"Bryan" wrote on Thu, 31 Aug 2006:
Will putting a filter pad around the pump going to the skimmer alleviate the
concern for the pods?

Keep in mind that some people think even putting the pods through a return
pump drastically reduces the number of live ones that make it to the main
tank. Having a skimmer post-refugium can't help either. Also note that even
if you had all sorts of equipment, SOME pods are going to make it to the main
tank no matter what. (Imagine you had the opposite problem: a refugium full
of pods, and you didn't want ANY in the main tank. Do you think you could
design a system that keeps them all out? It's tough...)

Perhaps a filter pad on the skimmer might be a little useful, but "alleviate
the concern" probably goes too far.

I will say, though, that all I've ever heard are theories and anecdotes. I
haven't heard anyone do real scientific research on how these designs affect
the flow of pods into the main tank.

How did you do yours?

Refugium first, skimmer second. But that was more due to the geometry of
how my tank overflows worked, where the equipment would fit, etc. Not a
deliberate design. (I've only got one pump in the system, and I have a
separate refugium tank which gravity-drains into the lowest level sump; the
return pump then sends everything back to the main tank.)

You can see how it works in a photo like this:
http://reef.geddis.org/a/Tank%20-%20...p/dsc03923.jpg
There are two overflows off the main tank: on the left, and on the right.
In the bottom cabinet, the refugium is the elevated tank on the right.
The sump, with the skimmer (in the sump) and external return pump (to the
right of the sump) is in the cabinet on the left. The refugium gravity-drains
into the sump. (The white bucket on the right is kalkwasser auto-topoff.)

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/

Don Geddis wrote on 8/31/2006 3:01 PM:
Having a skimmer post-refugium can't help either.

Also another advantage of having a skimmer before the
refugium, is that protein skimmers tend to leak fine air
bubbles. Having the protein skimmer before the refugium
helps reduce those bubbles.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

Bryan: You might go to www.melevsreef.com he has some very good ideas on
sumps and refugiums with directions on how to make them. I copied one of his
and it works great. I have the skimmer with a weir in the first place the
return dumps into then on the side I have a rufugium with a slower flow
going off the side to the main drain. The main side drain has a heater and
a float for the evaporation refill. Good luck on your studies. Bill
"Bryan" wrote in message
...
Thank Don,

You made a couple of good points there. I'm going to have to figure out
which is more important. I do want the little 'pods as well. Limited
space (and a wife that decorates) limits me to a sump/refugium fusion. I
didn't really think about 'pods vs the skimmer. To decrease how much I'll
have to clean the skimmer of pod-parts I think it will have to precede the
refugium with the skimmer. ha. But then again, less skimmer material to
clean if I let the plants do some pre-filtering (in theory). I agree that
neither gets everything out. I just want both to work as efficient as
possible. It's good to have other points to consider.

Will putting a filter pad around the pump going to the skimmer alleviate
the concern for the pods?

How did you do yours?

Thanks,

Bryan


"Don Geddis" wrote in message
...
"Bryan" wrote on Wed, 30 Aug 2006:
I'm designing a sump that I want a protein skimmer an refugium in. I
plan
on planting the refugium to further eat up the phosphates. Should I put
the protein skimmer before the refugium or vice versa? Does it really
matter.

Doesn't really matter, since neither purifies the water with a single
pass.
You need tank water to constantly stream past both kinds of "filters",
and
each only cleans the water a little bit on a single pass.

But if you could really do it either way, you should put the refugium
first
and the skimmer second, for filtering purposes. Both consume many of the
same kinds of organics. Basically, just like on land, plants and animals
are in many ways complementary. In your reef system, the fish and
macroalgae
are going to be opposites. Plants consume far more animal waste than
just
phosphates. They take in CO2 and make O2; they use nitrates as a
fertilizer;
etc. So you want the water entering the refugium to be as "dirty" as
possible.
Hence, put it immediately after the tank, and before the skimmer, in your
water flow.

That advice is for the plants. Note that refugiums are also typically
sources
of copepods and amphipods, which are fabulous live food for your reef
fish and
corals. For that purpose, it's a shame to grow some 'pods in the refug,
only
to have them sucked up into a downstream skimmer and killed there. Some
people even claim that the return pump is too much, as it might chop up
'pods
making their way downstream. The absolute ideal for a 'pod-factory
refugium
is to have it physically above the main tank, and have a slow flow of
water
only gravity-drain into the main tank. That way, the maximum rate of
'pods
can grow in the refug and fall, alive, into the main tank as food.

Summary: it doesn't really matter. But if filtering is your main
concern,
might as well put the refugium first, and skimmer second.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
In judo: When pushed, pull; when pulled, push.
In aikido: When pushed, turn; when pulled, enter.

As stated previously, the water is not going to get clean in one pass. With
that in mind what if you design a sump where the water comes from the main
tank and drains into the center of the sump. Then water flows both left and
right to 2 return pumps one on each side. in the left chamber a refugium
and in the right chamber a protein skimmer. Not sure if there would be any
issues with this setup but I figured maybe you could get the best of both
worlds. Please share your comments and let me know if this is really a
crazy idea or something that might be useful.

Frank in FL

"Don Geddis" wrote in message
...
"Bryan" wrote on Thu, 31 Aug 2006:
Will putting a filter pad around the pump going to the skimmer alleviate
the
concern for the pods?

Keep in mind that some people think even putting the pods through a return
pump drastically reduces the number of live ones that make it to the main
tank. Having a skimmer post-refugium can't help either. Also note that
even
if you had all sorts of equipment, SOME pods are going to make it to the
main
tank no matter what. (Imagine you had the opposite problem: a refugium
full
of pods, and you didn't want ANY in the main tank. Do you think you could
design a system that keeps them all out? It's tough...)

Perhaps a filter pad on the skimmer might be a little useful, but
"alleviate
the concern" probably goes too far.

I will say, though, that all I've ever heard are theories and anecdotes.
I
haven't heard anyone do real scientific research on how these designs
affect
the flow of pods into the main tank.

How did you do yours?

Refugium first, skimmer second. But that was more due to the geometry of
how my tank overflows worked, where the equipment would fit, etc. Not a
deliberate design. (I've only got one pump in the system, and I have a
separate refugium tank which gravity-drains into the lowest level sump;
the
return pump then sends everything back to the main tank.)

You can see how it works in a photo like this:
http://reef.geddis.org/a/Tank%20-%20...p/dsc03923.jpg
There are two overflows off the main tank: on the left, and on the right.
In the bottom cabinet, the refugium is the elevated tank on the right.
The sump, with the skimmer (in the sump) and external return pump (to the
right of the sump) is in the cabinet on the left. The refugium
gravity-drains
into the sump. (The white bucket on the right is kalkwasser auto-topoff.)

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis
http://reef.geddis.org/

I would not do that.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Frank wrote on 8/31/2006 7:18 PM:
As stated previously, the water is not going to get clean in one pass. With
that in mind what if you design a sump where the water comes from the main
tank and drains into the center of the sump. Then water flows both left and
right to 2 return pumps one on each side. in the left chamber a refugium
and in the right chamber a protein skimmer. Not sure if there would be any
issues with this setup but I figured maybe you could get the best of both
worlds. Please share your comments and let me know if this is really a
crazy idea or something that might be useful.

Frank in FL

"Don Geddis" wrote in message
...
"Bryan" wrote on Thu, 31 Aug 2006:
Will putting a filter pad around the pump going to the skimmer alleviate
the
concern for the pods?
Keep in mind that some people think even putting the pods through a return
pump drastically reduces the number of live ones that make it to the main
tank. Having a skimmer post-refugium can't help either. Also note that
even
if you had all sorts of equipment, SOME pods are going to make it to the
main
tank no matter what. (Imagine you had the opposite problem: a refugium
full
of pods, and you didn't want ANY in the main tank. Do you think you could
design a system that keeps them all out? It's tough...)

Perhaps a filter pad on the skimmer might be a little useful, but
"alleviate
the concern" probably goes too far.

I will say, though, that all I've ever heard are theories and anecdotes.
I
haven't heard anyone do real scientific research on how these designs
affect
the flow of pods into the main tank.

How did you do yours?
Refugium first, skimmer second. But that was more due to the geometry of
how my tank overflows worked, where the equipment would fit, etc. Not a
deliberate design. (I've only got one pump in the system, and I have a
separate refugium tank which gravity-drains into the lowest level sump;
the
return pump then sends everything back to the main tank.)

You can see how it works in a photo like this:
http://reef.geddis.org/a/Tank%20-%20...p/dsc03923.jpg
There are two overflows off the main tank: on the left, and on the right.
In the bottom cabinet, the refugium is the elevated tank on the right.
The sump, with the skimmer (in the sump) and external return pump (to the
right of the sump) is in the cabinet on the left. The refugium
gravity-drains
into the sump. (The white bucket on the right is kalkwasser auto-topoff.)

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis
http://reef.geddis.org/