underwater gravel

amosf © Tim Fairchild wrote:
wrote:

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re1.htm#GRAVEL
GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.

Interesting opinion, but...

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in
their throat.

Possible perhaps, but never seen it actually happen.

2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work
thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.

I imagine rotting food is potentially bad for all fish, but then that's why
you clean the gravel. Mind you I notice fish tend not to eat 'rotting
food'. They tend to be a little selective.

3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and secrete
toxic gases.

Toxic gasses? Ammonia perhaps. Of course that's why you clean gravel.

4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up
nitrate levels. High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste
output of an extra fish for two which drastically lowers the "carrying
capacity" of the tank (1 gf per 10 gallons).

Nitrate factory, sure. That's why you clean the gravel. Nitrates can be
great, but we know about plants and goldfish

5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that it
kills off the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first to
die, which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the entire
biofilter. Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking for
wastes and changing water, sudden crashes are not detected until the fish
are showing severe symptoms.

That's why you clean the gravel. And of course with correct kH the pH is not
going to crash on you... And we all check the parameters now and then,
right

6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or
rocks on the bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that
gets caught under the items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of the
water in the tank means all the crud and wastes are sucked out by the
filter intake. There is no siphoning required.

If you want to save work maybe, but I like the look of gravel and it gives
you somewhere to stick plants (anubias with gf of course - as well as some
salad for them to snack on). But even in a bare bottom you have to clean up
wastes. The crap still sits all over the bottom anyway.

7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed every
time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can
be put over the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste
water.

This is the silliest one. The whole idea of the bell siphon is to reduce the
suction so that the gravel isn't sucked out. Fish don't get sucked into the
siphon. And fry? In a goldfish tank? Yum!

Not great reasons to go to a bare bottom. Point 6 to make vacuuming easier
maybe.

But this was about UGF, and with UGF you change many of the points above in
that there is circulation in the gravel and so it's not "anaerobic"...

Whew! I can see all these points, but I have a little tank of about 40
litres with four decent goldfish and two white cloud minnows in it.
There's gravel on the bottom and all the plants are plastic. It's away
from any direct sunlight and I allow algae on the end and back panels. I
have a very good external pump/filter hung on the outside of the tank,
and change around half the water three or four times a year. I dump
chlorinated water straight from the tap on the assumption that what's
already in the tank will dilute anything unpleasant for the fish. Apart
from that all I do is feed them lightly once a day. This little tank has
run without a single hiccup for over two years now, and brought endless
enjoyment to me and the grandkids when they come to stay. In fact each
grandchild has his/her own fish they have named.

Now, my point in all this is simply this - people often remark on how
clean and fresh the tank looks, and how healthy and energetic the fish
are. I never check Ph or any other parametres - the only three
principles I use are - (a) watch the feed quantity, (b) understock the
tank, (c) have a good filter setup and keep it running sweetly. So,
ahem, why the need for all these other things, or am I just plain lucky?
I am not seeking to be provocative, and I respect the obvious experience
and knowledge of others in this group, which is far greater than mine. I
just want to know if all this extra stuff is good for the fish.

Cheers,
--
Peter in New Zealand. (Pull the plug out to reply.)
Collector of old cameras, tropical fish fancier, good coffee nutter, and
compulsive computer fiddler.

Peter in New Zealand wrote:

amosf © Tim Fairchild wrote:
wrote:

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re1.htm#GRAVEL
GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.

Interesting opinion, but...

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in
their throat.

Possible perhaps, but never seen it actually happen.

2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work
thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.

I imagine rotting food is potentially bad for all fish, but then that's
why you clean the gravel. Mind you I notice fish tend not to eat 'rotting
food'. They tend to be a little selective.

3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and
secrete toxic gases.

Toxic gasses? Ammonia perhaps. Of course that's why you clean gravel.

4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up
nitrate levels. High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste
output of an extra fish for two which drastically lowers the "carrying
capacity" of the tank (1 gf per 10 gallons).

Nitrate factory, sure. That's why you clean the gravel. Nitrates can be
great, but we know about plants and goldfish

5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that
it kills off the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first
to die, which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the
entire biofilter. Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking
for wastes and changing water, sudden crashes are not detected until the
fish are showing severe symptoms.

That's why you clean the gravel. And of course with correct kH the pH is
not going to crash on you... And we all check the parameters now and
then, right

6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or
rocks on the bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that
gets caught under the items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of
the water in the tank means all the crud and wastes are sucked out by
the filter intake. There is no siphoning required.

If you want to save work maybe, but I like the look of gravel and it
gives you somewhere to stick plants (anubias with gf of course - as well
as some salad for them to snack on). But even in a bare bottom you have
to clean up wastes. The crap still sits all over the bottom anyway.

7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed
every time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can
be put over the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste
water.

This is the silliest one. The whole idea of the bell siphon is to reduce
the suction so that the gravel isn't sucked out. Fish don't get sucked
into the
siphon. And fry? In a goldfish tank? Yum!

Not great reasons to go to a bare bottom. Point 6 to make vacuuming
easier maybe.

But this was about UGF, and with UGF you change many of the points above
in that there is circulation in the gravel and so it's not "anaerobic"...

Whew! I can see all these points, but I have a little tank of about 40
litres with four decent goldfish and two white cloud minnows in it.

I can't imagine 4 goldfish in 40 litres. I think you are pulling our leg
We have a very overcrowded (temporary) situation, but still have only 8 in
220 litres. They grow so fast, and even here we will need another tank or
pond soon...

There's gravel on the bottom and all the plants are plastic. It's away
from any direct sunlight and I allow algae on the end and back panels.

Algae is okay if you don't mind it. It eats nitrates and so forth.

I
have a very good external pump/filter hung on the outside of the tank,
and change around half the water three or four times a year. I dump
chlorinated water straight from the tap on the assumption that what's
already in the tank will dilute anything unpleasant for the fish.

The main risk there is that the chlorine in the water will kill some of the
good bacteria that convert the toxins in the tank. Best to leave the water
stand for 24 hours before adding to the tank, especially in a larger water
change.

Apart
from that all I do is feed them lightly once a day. This little tank has
run without a single hiccup for over two years now, and brought endless
enjoyment to me and the grandkids when they come to stay. In fact each
grandchild has his/her own fish they have named.

My sister kept goldfish in a small tank for a few years. But in a larger
tank they will actually grow and live longer. They are a large fish.

Now, my point in all this is simply this - people often remark on how
clean and fresh the tank looks, and how healthy and energetic the fish
are. I never check Ph or any other parametres - the only three
principles I use are - (a) watch the feed quantity,

Yes, well, goldfish will eat all day.

(b) understock the
tank,

well, 4 in 40 litres isn't under stocked tho. 1 in 200 litres might be. Most
people recommend 1 in 80 litres at least... These guys get over 30cm long
(more, depending on the type).

(c) have a good filter setup and keep it running sweetly.

A good filter is a big help with goldfish. They need twice as much as most
other fish.

So,
ahem, why the need for all these other things, or am I just plain lucky?
I am not seeking to be provocative, and I respect the obvious experience
and knowledge of others in this group, which is far greater than mine. I
just want to know if all this extra stuff is good for the fish.

I don't think you need a lot of 'other stuff'. With enough tank and basic
maintenance and a good filter, it all works fine.

wrote:

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in their
throat.

I have seen this happen, but can happen with any aquarium with gravel,
obviously this happens less with pea sized gravel. But with proper
feeding technique (soaking pellets before feeding for 5 minutes +) this
is very rare, and I have maintained hundred of goldfish aquariums over
the years in my maintenance business.

2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.

Again true, but this is true for all fish al again proper feeding
technique is important here as well

3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and secrete toxic
gases.

This is much more common with sand, which is why sand is best near the
roots of plants, where the chance of hydrogen sulfide producing
bacteria is low. This is VERY rare with Nektonics UGF.

4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up nitrate levels.
High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste output of an
extra fish for
two which drastically lowers the "carrying capacity" of the tank (1 gf
per 10
gallons).

This is where plants can help or again proper cleanings. This is just
as common or more so with a poorly maintained canister filter (and
canister filters are excellent, they just cannot be ignored just
because of their large capacity)

5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that it kills off
the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first to die,
which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the
entire biofilter.
Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking for wastes and
changing water,
sudden crashes are not detected until the fish are showing severe
symptoms.

Nitric acid production is on going in all healthy well cycled
aquariums. Proper kH is what is important here, and not just the old
school method of baking soda, which does not add the calcium needed by
all fish (in fact all animals), and also does not add necessary
electrolytes. There are many excellent ways of doing this from Wonder
Shells to bags of aragonite in the filter.

6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or rocks on the
bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that gets caught
under the
items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of the water in the tank
means all the
crud and wastes are sucked out by the filter intake. There is no
siphoning required.

This describes an excellent hospital aquarium, but not an aesthetically
pleasing display aquarium. Also gravel can and does perform aerobic
bacterial filtration; it provides a place for healthy plants to take
root (sand mixture is best here). And in sal****er, anaerobic activity
is useful for nitrate removal. And even in freshwater a thicker layer
of coarse gravel utilizing a "void space" called a plenum is often used
for Nitrate removal. These are not to be confused with under gravel
filters.

7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed every time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie
can be put over
the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste water.

Good point as to proper vacuuming procedure. With proper manipulation
of the vacuum and using your other hand to pinch the tubing when the
flow gets to strong, this should be a non occurrence. I cannot say it
has never happened to me, but in over 56,160 aquariums I estimate I
have cleaned over the last 27 years, it has maybe happened three times
(the math is based on 8 aquariums per day times 5 times 52 weeks time
27 years)

Carl
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....formation.html

amosf © Tim Fairchild wrote:
wrote:

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re1.htm#GRAVEL
GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.

Interesting opinion, but...

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in
their throat.

Possible perhaps, but never seen it actually happen.

2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work
thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.

I imagine rotting food is potentially bad for all fish, but then that's why
you clean the gravel. Mind you I notice fish tend not to eat 'rotting
food'. They tend to be a little selective.

3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and secrete
toxic gases.

Toxic gasses? Ammonia perhaps. Of course that's why you clean gravel.

4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up
nitrate levels. High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste
output of an extra fish for two which drastically lowers the "carrying
capacity" of the tank (1 gf per 10 gallons).

Nitrate factory, sure. That's why you clean the gravel. Nitrates can be
great, but we know about plants and goldfish

5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that it
kills off the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first to
die, which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the entire
biofilter. Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking for
wastes and changing water, sudden crashes are not detected until the fish
are showing severe symptoms.

That's why you clean the gravel. And of course with correct kH the pH is not
going to crash on you... And we all check the parameters now and then,
right

6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or
rocks on the bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that
gets caught under the items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of the
water in the tank means all the crud and wastes are sucked out by the
filter intake. There is no siphoning required.

If you want to save work maybe, but I like the look of gravel and it gives
you somewhere to stick plants (anubias with gf of course - as well as some
salad for them to snack on). But even in a bare bottom you have to clean up
wastes. The crap still sits all over the bottom anyway.

7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed every
time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can
be put over the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste
water.

This is the silliest one. The whole idea of the bell siphon is to reduce the
suction so that the gravel isn't sucked out. Fish don't get sucked into the
siphon. And fry? In a goldfish tank? Yum!

Not great reasons to go to a bare bottom. Point 6 to make vacuuming easier
maybe.

But this was about UGF, and with UGF you change many of the points above in
that there is circulation in the gravel and so it's not "anaerobic"...

All great points!! Especially the final one. I was typing my answer
while doing other computer work and answering calls (which took a
while), so I appolgize for any similar answer.

Carl

"amosf © Tim Fairchild" wrote in message
...
wrote:

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re1.htm#GRAVEL
GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.

Interesting opinion, but...

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in
their throat.

Possible perhaps, but never seen it actually happen.

brevity snips
==================
I have gravel in my GF tanks and only once did I have to use tweezers to
remove one. I can't stand the "hospital" tank look of the graveless bottom.
It's too unnatural for my tastes, and I do have live plants in every tank.
Also there is nothing for the fish to do in "glass cages." They love
picking over the bottom for dropped bits of food. If food is rotting on the
bottom someone is over-feeding their fish. PH remains stable because I
keep the gravel vacuumed and do regular partial water changes.

But everyone has their own way of doing things.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

"carlrs" wrote in message
ps.com...

Nitric acid production is on going in all healthy well cycled
aquariums. Proper kH is what is important here, and not just the old
school method of baking soda, which does not add the calcium needed by
all fish (in fact all animals), and also does not add necessary
electrolytes. There are many excellent ways of doing this from Wonder
Shells to bags of aragonite in the filter.


Can you explain this please? Are you saying that Wonder Shells are needed
in all aquariums? What are they?


Jen

"Peter in New Zealand" wrote in message
...

Whew! I can see all these points, but I have a little tank of about 40
litres with four decent goldfish and two white cloud minnows in it.

I'm not familiar with the metric system. ;-)
The recommended amount of filtered water per goldfish is 10 gallons. GF are
large fish and to starve them into a stunted condition (which some people
unknowingly do) to keep them in small tanks (less than 10g per GF) is
considered cruel by many people. They're big eaters and grow quickly when
well fed and well housed and cared for.

I
have a very good external pump/filter hung on the outside of the tank, and
change around half the water three or four times a year. I dump
chlorinated water straight from the tap on the assumption that what's
already in the tank will dilute anything unpleasant for the fish.

Most of us do partial changes at least every few weeks to remove the
dissolved solids (pollutants the filter doesn't get).


Apart
from that all I do is feed them lightly once a day.

This in my opinion is cruel. Would you feed a puppy or growing child
"lightly?" GF are not once a day eaters. They're browsers or grazers who
nibble all day long in nature - and grow rapidly if healthy.


This little tank has
run without a single hiccup for over two years now, and brought endless
enjoyment to me and the grandkids when they come to stay. In fact each
grandchild has his/her own fish they have named.

Now, my point in all this is simply this - people often remark on how
clean and fresh the tank looks, and how healthy and energetic the fish
are. I never check Ph or any other parametres - the only three principles
I use are - (a) watch the feed quantity,

Which seems to mean you are underfeeding them if they're still small. A
normal 2 year old GF is a good 6" long or longer.

b) understock the
tank, (c)

Each GF needs 10 gallons of water for maximum health and growth, MORE when
an adult at 8 to 12" long.

have a good filter setup and keep it running sweetly. So,
ahem, why the need for all these other things, or am I just plain lucky?

Luck and starving fish perhaps? One light meal a day? :-(

I am not seeking to be provocative, and I respect the obvious experience
and knowledge of others in this group, which is far greater than mine. I
just want to know if all this extra stuff is good for the fish.

All they really need is enough space, clean water, plenty of decent food and
a running filter.


--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Jen wrote:
"carlrs" wrote in message
ps.com...

Nitric acid production is on going in all healthy well cycled
aquariums. Proper kH is what is important here, and not just the old
school method of baking soda, which does not add the calcium needed by
all fish (in fact all animals), and also does not add necessary
electrolytes. There are many excellent ways of doing this from Wonder
Shells to bags of aragonite in the filter.


Can you explain this please? Are you saying that Wonder Shells are needed
in all aquariums? What are they?


Jen

No, but they or some other form of calcium, magnesium and electrolytes
are very important to a healthy aquarium. Proper electrolyte balance is
also important for proper Redox Potential (reduction), which recent
research shows is very important.
Even soft water fish such as discus need calcium.
What these blocks are a basically calcium with minor, and trace
elements. They are good buffer kH control, but only then if you do not
have an over abundance of decaying organics supplying nitric acid.
These Wonder Shells (this is just a trade name, the name tends to over
state them) are my preferred way, but many like to use Aragonite sand,
I have found the Wonder shells to dissolve at a rate needed based on
kH, where as aragonite tends to dissolve at a rate less affected by kH
and electrolyte needs.

Here are some facts about Calcium:
Calcium carbonate in your aquarium will keep a more stable Kh, while
magnesium is another important element that works with calcium. A
proper amount of Calcium and Magnesium in your aquarium will affect the
fish' health positively. Besides helping to keep a stable Kh,
magnesium and calcium have been shown to increase resistance to
degenerate diseases by lowering the acidity in the body. This will help
with prevention of ich, fungus, and general "wear and tear" in your
fish. Calcium also helps in healing and stress, and without proper
calcium levels healing may be difficult or impossible. The addition of
antibiotics (such as Tetracycline) will lower calcium absorption.
Another note about calcium; Calcium is very important to proper discus
health, yet calcium can adversely affect the pH of a discus aquarium,
which is generally kept at a pH below 6.5. I have successfully used
calcium (Wonder Shells or Calcium Polygluconate) in discus aquariums by
using a mix of RO (Reverse Osmosis) water and tap water (dilution will
vary depending on your tap and tank water parameters). I then add
electrolytes to the RO water and add peat to the filters. I have used
this method successfully with discus and added the needed calcium with
no pH climb.

Other needs for calcium:
· Calcium is a vital component in blood clotting systems and also
helps in wound healing.
· Calcium helps to control nerve transmission, and release of
neurotransmitters.
· Calcium is an essential component in the production of enzymes and
hormones that regulate digestion, energy, and fat metabolism.
· Calcium helps to transport ions (electrically charged particles)
across the membrane.
· Calcium is essential for muscle contraction.
· Calcium assists in maintaining all cells and connective tissues in
the body.

There is more information about Calcium, Magnesium, and kH he
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

Carl

amosf © Tim Fairchild wrote:
Peter in New Zealand wrote:

amosf © Tim Fairchild wrote:
wrote:

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/c...re1.htm#GRAVEL
GRAVEL
Gravel is not recommended for keeping goldfish.
Interesting opinion, but...

1. Gravel is the leading cause of sudden death when gravel gets stuck in
their throat.
Possible perhaps, but never seen it actually happen.

2. Food drifts down into gravel and rots. Goldfish will sift and work
thru the
gravel looking for food. Rotting food is toxic for goldfish.
I imagine rotting food is potentially bad for all fish, but then that's
why you clean the gravel. Mind you I notice fish tend not to eat 'rotting
food'. They tend to be a little selective.

3. Gravel creates "dead" spots where anaerobic bacteria thrive and
secrete toxic gases.
Toxic gasses? Ammonia perhaps. Of course that's why you clean gravel.

4. Organic compounds contribute to the waste in the tank, driving up
nitrate levels. High organic loads in gravel can easily equal the waste
output of an extra fish for two which drastically lowers the "carrying
capacity" of the tank (1 gf per 10 gallons).
Nitrate factory, sure. That's why you clean the gravel. Nitrates can be
great, but we know about plants and goldfish

5. Organic compounds are acidic and can lower the pH to the point that
it kills off the biobugs. The nitrite converting bacteria are the first
to die, which causes a
nitrous acid spike. This will cause a sudden crash that kills the
entire biofilter. Unlike cycling, where the keeper knows and is checking
for wastes and changing water, sudden crashes are not detected until the
fish are showing severe symptoms.
That's why you clean the gravel. And of course with correct kH the pH is
not going to crash on you... And we all check the parameters now and
then, right

6. It is more work to clean gravel and do water changes. Any gravel or
rocks on the bottom require a bell of some kinds to suck up debris that
gets caught under the items. In a bare bottom tank, the circulation of
the water in the tank means all the crud and wastes are sucked out by
the filter intake. There is no siphoning required.
If you want to save work maybe, but I like the look of gravel and it
gives you somewhere to stick plants (anubias with gf of course - as well
as some salad for them to snack on). But even in a bare bottom you have
to clean up wastes. The crap still sits all over the bottom anyway.

7. Fish can be sucked up into a siphon bell and be maimed or killed
every time the
gravel is cleaned. When there is no gravel to clean, a nylon sockie can
be put over the siphon and even fry wont get sucked out with the waste
water.
This is the silliest one. The whole idea of the bell siphon is to reduce
the suction so that the gravel isn't sucked out. Fish don't get sucked
into the
siphon. And fry? In a goldfish tank? Yum!

Not great reasons to go to a bare bottom. Point 6 to make vacuuming
easier maybe.

But this was about UGF, and with UGF you change many of the points above
in that there is circulation in the gravel and so it's not "anaerobic"...

Whew! I can see all these points, but I have a little tank of about 40
litres with four decent goldfish and two white cloud minnows in it.

I can't imagine 4 goldfish in 40 litres. I think you are pulling our leg
We have a very overcrowded (temporary) situation, but still have only 8 in
220 litres. They grow so fast, and even here we will need another tank or
pond soon...

There's gravel on the bottom and all the plants are plastic. It's away
from any direct sunlight and I allow algae on the end and back panels.

Algae is okay if you don't mind it. It eats nitrates and so forth.

I
have a very good external pump/filter hung on the outside of the tank,
and change around half the water three or four times a year. I dump
chlorinated water straight from the tap on the assumption that what's
already in the tank will dilute anything unpleasant for the fish.

The main risk there is that the chlorine in the water will kill some of the
good bacteria that convert the toxins in the tank. Best to leave the water
stand for 24 hours before adding to the tank, especially in a larger water
change.

Apart
from that all I do is feed them lightly once a day. This little tank has
run without a single hiccup for over two years now, and brought endless
enjoyment to me and the grandkids when they come to stay. In fact each
grandchild has his/her own fish they have named.

My sister kept goldfish in a small tank for a few years. But in a larger
tank they will actually grow and live longer. They are a large fish.

Now, my point in all this is simply this - people often remark on how
clean and fresh the tank looks, and how healthy and energetic the fish
are. I never check Ph or any other parametres - the only three
principles I use are - (a) watch the feed quantity,

Yes, well, goldfish will eat all day.

(b) understock the
tank,

well, 4 in 40 litres isn't under stocked tho. 1 in 200 litres might be. Most
people recommend 1 in 80 litres at least... These guys get over 30cm long
(more, depending on the type).

(c) have a good filter setup and keep it running sweetly.

A good filter is a big help with goldfish. They need twice as much as most
other fish.

So,
ahem, why the need for all these other things, or am I just plain lucky?
I am not seeking to be provocative, and I respect the obvious experience
and knowledge of others in this group, which is far greater than mine. I
just want to know if all this extra stuff is good for the fish.

I don't think you need a lot of 'other stuff'. With enough tank and basic
maintenance and a good filter, it all works fine.


Ummm, my tank measures 50 X 26 X 30 cm high. Have I done something
really silly with the calculation? The residents all look healthy, happy
and active. If it was allowed in a news group I could attach a quick pic
of it to show you. Maybe my filtration system is robust enough to
increase the apparent carrying capacity of the tank enough for them. I
just never worry about it. If the fish are not entirely happy I know
what to look for, and would do something about it, but they're perky,
eating well, clean of any sign of trouble, and the water is clear and
clean. I know goldfish are an inherently "dirty" species, and I would
not want to leave the water circulating and filtering system turned off
for a day or two, but as it stands now, they have remained happy and
healthy for about two years.
--
Peter in New Zealand. (Pull the plug out to reply.)
Collector of old cameras, tropical fish fancier, good coffee nutter, and
compulsive computer fiddler.

Zëbulon wrote:


"Peter in New Zealand" wrote in message
...

Whew! I can see all these points, but I have a little tank of about 40
litres with four decent goldfish and two white cloud minnows in it.

I'm not familiar with the metric system. ;-)

Well, 40l would be about 10 gallons...

The recommended amount of filtered water per goldfish is 10 gallons. GF
are large fish and to starve them into a stunted condition (which some
people unknowingly do) to keep them in small tanks (less than 10g per GF)
is
considered cruel by many people. They're big eaters and grow quickly when
well fed and well housed and cared for.

I have some in a somewhat overcrowded situation with about 40l per goldfish,
but that will change as they grow.

tim