Treating my betta's fin rot

"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Zëbulon wrote:


Is the white circle fuzzy or flat?

Flat as best I can tell, looks like a donut.

I didn't see Quick Cure at the pet store.
======================
Aquara-sol is my second choice.
--
ZB....

ZB....

Aquarisol is also for parasites, not bacterial infections and is a
pretty weak medication.
========================
Oh, did he say it was bacterial? I didn't see that message claiming it was
a bacterial infection.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

"Tynk" wrote in message
ups.com...

ZB....

Mac Cool posted about the Betta having Fin Rot.
Quick Cure is a parasite medication and not for bacterial infections.
=============
The breeder lied to me when he said the Formaldehyde helps control bacterial
infections? Many of these infections are started by parasites that damaged
the slime coat allowing bacterial infections to get a start. Quick-Cure
works great for me and has for years.

Also see:
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/malachite.htm

--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Tynk wrote:
Mac Cool wrote:
I followed directions from several websites:

1. Separated from the main tank
2. Changed water in the main tank and washed with hot water
3. Put betta in his old 1/2 gallon tank and other fish back into main
tank.
4. Put appropriate amounts of conditioning salt in both tanks (I wasn't
using salt before)
5. Treated both tanks with Jungle Fungus Clear. If he gets worse after a
day or two I'll move up to something stronger.

My betta has become listless, won't eat and just rests below the surface
of the water. He does react if I approach the tank but he's not feeling
well. Part of his fin is gone and a bit raggedy, he also has a white
circle on his side.

I don't have a heater in either tank but in winter they stay between 75-78
degrees, in the summer about 80-85 degrees.

How am I doing here? Missing anything?
--
Mac Cool

Hello Mac.
I understand your fish has already passed, but I wanted to make several
comments.

You said your fish had fin rot. You mentioned treating it with Jungle
brand's Fungus Clear. That's wrong med for fin rot, which is bacterial.
Jungle brand's Fungus Eliminator is the one that treats both true
fungus, and many bacterial infections...Fin rot being one of them...and
happens to be the med I recommend most for it. Many people make the
mistake of getting the Fungus Clear...but it's not the same medication
and will not work the same.
If Fin rot isn't treated properly, the fish can die quickly... as you
have seen.
Your tank's temp was a bit chilly for a Betta, especially one suffering
from Fin rot (an infection they are prone to get).
As for the other poster's comment about using Quick Cure for Fin
rot..nope. Wrong medication.
I love Quick Cure, but it's for parasites. Not bacterial infections.
It's actually one of 2 meds I keep on hand at all times, and Jungle's
Fungus Eliminator is the other.
I've been in the hobby most my life and specialize in both Bettas and
Angelfish, and after all these years, those are the only meds I keep on
hand out of the hundreds available.
As for the same poster's recommendation for Aquarisol....it's also for
parasites, but it's too weak. Usually the fish ends up dying from the
parasite before Aquarisol can kill it.
It's said to be used as a preventative, but I never recommend using
meds for no reason.
Most seasoned hobbyists will say the same. Never treat with medications
that you don't know about, don't know what you are treating for, and
for no reason. That's wise advice.
The white, flat patch sounded like a bacterial infection as well. Ich
would have looked like a grain of sugar, usually more than one spot and
isn't flat. A fungal attack would have looked like a cottony, white,
fuzzy patch that grows quickly. Think white mold growing on somthing
nasty that was forgotten about in the back of the frige. (Not that I am
admitting to doing that ever, lol). = )
I'm sorry for your loss, and if this ever happens with any of your
other fish, or in the future, you'll know how to treat it, and what to
use.
Keep a close eye on the other fish it was housed with. He got that
bacterial infection for a reason and until you figure out the *why*,
you may not be done with it.
Are you keeping up on regular water changes?
Were there any new fish added without quarantining them?

Actually malachite Green has some anti-fungal properties (not much for
bacteria though), but Methylene Blue does have anti bacterial
properties both gram negative and gram positive.

This is why I would often start with a Methylene Blue Bath, as this has
proven over the years to be very effective until the antibiotics kick
in.
Methylene Blue should be part of any aquarists first line of defence as
you stated "Usually the fish ends up dying from the
parasite before Aquarisol can kill it.", this Med works immediately in
a bath

Also I mentioned Pimafix which also has proven to effective against
gram negative bacterial infections including columnaris which this may
have been.
Nitrfurazone, Kanamyacin, and Triple Sulfa also are effective here.

Medicated Wonder shells also have some gram negative capabilities
(although this product is generally better for fungus and ich or
velvet), but this product also adds needed electrolytes and calcium,
again which my years of aquarium maintenance experience and research
have shown (not mention many back in LA where I ran my service can
attest to!). The regular Wonder Shells are a product especially for
Betta bowls I think again should be part of many aquarists arsenal, but
this is hard to convince on the Usenet.

Carl
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....formation.html

"carlrs" wrote in message
ups.com...
Methylene Blue should be part of any aquarists first line of defence as
you stated "Usually the fish ends up dying from the
parasite before Aquarisol can kill it.", this Med works immediately in
a bath

I've seen improvement in bettas with velvet in 24 hours using Aquarisol.

Also I mentioned Pimafix which also has proven to effective against
gram negative bacterial infections including columnaris which this may
have been.
Nitrfurazone, Kanamyacin, and Triple Sulfa also are effective here.

I was told these antibiotics are having less and less of an effect on
diseases due to overuse.

Medicated Wonder shells also have some gram negative capabilities
(although this product is generally better for fungus and ich or
velvet), but this product also adds needed electrolytes and calcium,

What antibiotic do they contain? Does it effect the nitrifying bacteria?
And with bettas liking a softer acid water would calcium help them in any
way?

again which my years of aquarium maintenance experience and research
have shown (not mention many back in LA where I ran my service can
attest to!). The regular Wonder Shells are a product especially for
Betta bowls I think again should be part of many aquarists arsenal, but
this is hard to convince on the Usenet.

I don't recall seeing anything called Wonder Shells in the local stores.
What do they contain?
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Zëbulon wrote:


Aquarisol is also for parasites, not bacterial infections and is a
pretty weak medication.
========================
Oh, did he say it was bacterial? I didn't see that message claiming it was
a bacterial infection.

He didn't say the actual words "bacterial infection", but the poster
*Mac Cool* titled their post "treating my Bettas fin rot" and talked
about it's fin rot problem and what they were treating it for.
Fin Rot is a bacterial infection, not parasitic.

Zëbulon wrote:
"carlrs" wrote in message
ups.com...
Methylene Blue should be part of any aquarists first line of defence as
you stated "Usually the fish ends up dying from the
parasite before Aquarisol can kill it.", this Med works immediately in
a bath

I've seen improvement in bettas with velvet in 24 hours using Aquarisol.

I do not argue this, as velvet has a fast life cycle (as compared to
ich). Also I responding more to the other comment, not yours, as I don
not dispute your results. I prefer a
Methylene Blue bath as a first coarse of action when practicle.

Also I mentioned Pimafix which also has proven to effective against
gram negative bacterial infections including columnaris which this may
have been.
Nitrfurazone, Kanamyacin, and Triple Sulfa also are effective here.

I was told these antibiotics are having less and less of an effect on
diseases due to overuse.

Pimafix , along with Melafix, and Usnic Acid are not antibiotics.
As for the antibiotics, that is again why I start with are methods of
treatment first to prevent over use, but Kanamycin in particular is
still very effective when not over used.

Medicated Wonder shells also have some gram negative capabilities
(although this product is generally better for fungus and ich or
velvet), but this product also adds needed electrolytes and calcium,

What antibiotic do they contain? Does it effect the nitrifying bacteria?
And with bettas liking a softer acid water would calcium help them in any
way?
They contain no antibiotics. They contain Malachite Green, Copper
Sulfate, Acriflavin, and buffered Methylene Blue. The effect on
nitrifying bacteria is minimal (although like any "medication" they
should not be over used). Medicated Wonder Shells can be hard on plants
even over used.
As for calcium, recent studies show ALL fish including discus need
Calcium for proper osmotic function and disease prevention. The calcium
also buffers the Malachite Green lower toxicity. The Medicated and
Regular Wonder Shells also add electrolytes which are also very
important for aquarium Redox and fish health.
Here is a link to an article about this:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

again which my years of aquarium maintenance experience and research
have shown (not mention many back in LA where I ran my service can
attest to!). The regular Wonder Shells are a product especially for
Betta bowls I think again should be part of many aquarists arsenal, but
this is hard to convince on the Usenet.

I don't recall seeing anything called Wonder Shells in the local stores.
What do they contain?
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Wonder Shells have been around for quite a while in the LA area and are
still a popular product there with many aquarists. Medicated Wonder
Shells are a product I developed over the years of aquarium maintenance
based on what I felt was the need for a better ich/ velvet/ fungus
treatment that could also medicate when I was not present at a clients
aquarium. I used the wonder shell based on my experience with this
product as a good too for aquatic husbandry (despite the over blown
name, as this product is only a tool, not a "Wonder" cure all).

Hope all this helps as I respect your opinions.

Here is a link to Wonder Shells themselves with more info:
http://americanaquariumproducts.com/...nderShell.html

Carl

"carlrs" wrote in message
oups.com...

Zëbulon wrote:
"carlrs" wrote in message
ups.com...
Methylene Blue should be part of any aquarists first line of defence as
you stated "Usually the fish ends up dying from the
parasite before Aquarisol can kill it.", this Med works immediately in
a bath

I've seen improvement in bettas with velvet in 24 hours using Aquarisol.

I do not argue this, as velvet has a fast life cycle (as compared to
ich). Also I responding more to the other comment, not yours, as I don
not dispute your results. I prefer a
Methylene Blue bath as a first coarse of action when practicle.

I assume you remove the fish for treatment if it's a bath. Some people have
a lot of fish in larger tanks and that wouldn't be easy or practical. It's
been my experience that bacterial infections get their start with parasites.
I think we all know poor quality water takes down the fishes immune system
and makes them easy prey to bacterial and fungal infections with or without
parasites. This would be more a newbie to the hobbys problem. Experienced
aquarists keep the water in good condition. Parasites in new fish are why I
treat all incoming fish whether I see signs of them or not. Other people
disagree with this. We're all entitled to our own opinion. After a real
bad experience with gill-flukes I don't take chances anymore.

Also I mentioned Pimafix which also has proven to effective against
gram negative bacterial infections including columnaris which this may
have been.
Nitrfurazone, Kanamyacin, and Triple Sulfa also are effective here.

I was told these antibiotics are having less and less of an effect on
diseases due to overuse.

Pimafix , along with Melafix, and Usnic Acid are not antibiotics.
As for the antibiotics, that is again why I start with are methods of
treatment first to prevent over use, but Kanamycin in particular is
still very effective when not over used.

That's good to know. Thanks. :-)

Medicated Wonder shells also have some gram negative capabilities
(although this product is generally better for fungus and ich or
velvet), but this product also adds needed electrolytes and calcium,

What antibiotic do they contain? Does it effect the nitrifying bacteria?
And with bettas liking a softer acid water would calcium help them in any
way?

They contain no antibiotics. They contain Malachite Green, Copper
Sulfate, Acriflavin, and buffered Methylene Blue. The effect on
nitrifying bacteria is minimal (although like any "medication" they
should not be over used). Medicated Wonder Shells can be hard on plants
even over used.
As for calcium, recent studies show ALL fish including discus need
Calcium for proper osmotic function and disease prevention. The calcium
also buffers the Malachite Green lower toxicity. The Medicated and
Regular Wonder Shells also add electrolytes which are also very
important for aquarium Redox and fish health.
Here is a link to an article about this:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

again which my years of aquarium maintenance experience and research
have shown (not mention many back in LA where I ran my service can
attest to!). The regular Wonder Shells are a product especially for
Betta bowls I think again should be part of many aquarists arsenal, but
this is hard to convince on the Usenet.

I don't recall seeing anything called Wonder Shells in the local stores.
What do they contain?

Wonder Shells have been around for quite a while in the LA area and are
still a popular product there with many aquarists. Medicated Wonder
Shells are a product I developed over the years of aquarium maintenance
based on what I felt was the need for a better ich/ velvet/ fungus
treatment that could also medicate when I was not present at a clients
aquarium. I used the wonder shell based on my experience with this
product as a good too for aquatic husbandry (despite the over blown
name, as this product is only a tool, not a "Wonder" cure all).

Hope all this helps as I respect your opinions.

Here is a link to Wonder Shells themselves with more info:
http://americanaquariumproducts.com/...nderShell.html

Carl

Thank you for the information.

--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Tynk:
Keep a close eye on the other fish it was housed with. He got that
bacterial infection for a reason and until you figure out the *why*,
you may not be done with it.
Are you keeping up on regular water changes?
Were there any new fish added without quarantining them?

Good info. Yes I had added fish to the tank. Here was the sequence of
events...
1. Bought a 4G Biorb for my betta who was in a .5G tank my wife had
bought for him.
(I found out after the fact that people seem to hate these tanks but it
seemed perfect for the betta and probably would have been if I had left
him alone)
2. After a couple of weeks I decided to add some fish, so I added two
rasboras and a panda cory, didn't know about quaranting yet.
3. Cory died within hours and I thought maybe it was a fluke. Changed
the water, washed the bowl & contents with hot water and replaced fish.
4. betta got sick the next day, I separated him and treated both tanks
with Jungle Clear (which in my defense does say for fungus and bacteria
on the label) and he died late that night.
5. Two rasboras died two days after with no signs of infection or rot.
Another rasbora was swimming in a spiral motion so I took him back to
the pet store and they said they would try to save him. I changed half
the water but did not retreat with Jungle Clear.

I figured the other rasboras would die but they didn't. So far they
appear healthy and strong but so did the others right up until they
died. The rasboras that are alive don't seem to have much of an
appetite. They nibble a bit but not much. I've been feeding them once
per day. I plan to change 20% of the water in a few days.

I just checked the water quality and everything was fine except Nitrites
which are starting to rise again so I added a conditioner made by Prime
to remove ammonia and detoxify nitrites and nitrates until I can do
another partial water change.

--
Mac Cool

Mac Cool wrote:
Tynk:
Keep a close eye on the other fish it was housed with. He got that
bacterial infection for a reason and until you figure out the *why*,
you may not be done with it.
Are you keeping up on regular water changes?
Were there any new fish added without quarantining them?

Good info. Yes I had added fish to the tank. Here was the sequence of
events...
1. Bought a 4G Biorb for my betta who was in a .5G tank my wife had
bought for him.
(I found out after the fact that people seem to hate these tanks but it
seemed perfect for the betta and probably would have been if I had left
him alone)
2. After a couple of weeks I decided to add some fish, so I added two
rasboras and a panda cory, didn't know about quaranting yet.
3. Cory died within hours and I thought maybe it was a fluke. Changed
the water, washed the bowl & contents with hot water and replaced fish.
4. betta got sick the next day, I separated him and treated both tanks
with Jungle Clear (which in my defense does say for fungus and bacteria
on the label) and he died late that night.
5. Two rasboras died two days after with no signs of infection or rot.
Another rasbora was swimming in a spiral motion so I took him back to
the pet store and they said they would try to save him. I changed half
the water but did not retreat with Jungle Clear.

I figured the other rasboras would die but they didn't. So far they
appear healthy and strong but so did the others right up until they
died. The rasboras that are alive don't seem to have much of an
appetite. They nibble a bit but not much. I've been feeding them once
per day. I plan to change 20% of the water in a few days.

I just checked the water quality and everything was fine except Nitrites
which are starting to rise again so I added a conditioner made by Prime
to remove ammonia and detoxify nitrites and nitrates until I can do
another partial water change.

--
Mac Cool

Prime is an excellent choice for nitrite de-toxifying, but you need to
make sure your tank is cycled properly. I would consider adding filter
media from an established aquarium.
I also would consider a Spirulina Flake that has Spirulina as the #1
ingredient such as Spirulina 20.
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....ina20Food.html
This is easier to digest and more importantly helps the immune system.
Make sure you also have a kH of at least 80 ppm, even for rasboras as
research has shown that calcium is important for proper osmotic
function and disease resistance.

As for treatment I have differ with this statement
" Most seasoned hobbyists will say the same. Never treat with medications that you don't know about; don't know what you are treating for, and for no reason. That's wise advice."
I have been professionally involved in this business for 27 years (hard
to convince some at groups like Freshwater Aquarium), and if you fish
have been dying and your water parameters are generally good, something
is wrong. How do learn about anything but by trying it out,
researching, and following others advice? That is why no one learns or
will label some products as trash without even trying them. I have
tried and researched and followed others links out of respect to see
what I can learn.
I often have seen similar problems with rasboras and tetras and
achieved results with Kanacyn (more gram negative) or erythromyacin
(more gram positive) and I have combined both in severe cases.
As I posted earlier Pimafix can be useful and so can the very new
treatment of usnic acid (found in Usnea Lichen) that many arrogant
aquarists still are not familiar with.
Also as I stated earlier, calcium and electrolytes are important for
your fish' recovery which is where regular wonder shells of the
medicated wonder shells shine (the medicated can be used as a
preventative which is where I use them a lot in my business, but not
constantly as no med should be).
Prophylactic treatment is also wise when new fish are introduced with
safe meds (best in a hospital tank when possible). I would also note
that I have observed Aquarisol work for treatment of Neon Tetra
disease (as well as Naladixic acid).

The bottum line is to make sure ALL your water parameters are correct
from ammonia to kH to even Redox, with the parameters are reasonably
good yet your fish are dying, you need to treat with the proper meds
and perform regular small water changes.

For more Medication info (including Usnea):
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....edication.html

Carl
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....formation.html
http://aquarium-info.blogspot.com/

carlrs wrote:
Mac Cool wrote:
Tynk:
Keep a close eye on the other fish it was housed with. He got that
bacterial infection for a reason and until you figure out the *why*,
you may not be done with it.
Are you keeping up on regular water changes?
Were there any new fish added without quarantining them?

Good info. Yes I had added fish to the tank. Here was the sequence of
events...
1. Bought a 4G Biorb for my betta who was in a .5G tank my wife had
bought for him.
(I found out after the fact that people seem to hate these tanks but it
seemed perfect for the betta and probably would have been if I had left
him alone)
2. After a couple of weeks I decided to add some fish, so I added two
rasboras and a panda cory, didn't know about quaranting yet.
3. Cory died within hours and I thought maybe it was a fluke. Changed
the water, washed the bowl & contents with hot water and replaced fish.
4. betta got sick the next day, I separated him and treated both tanks
with Jungle Clear (which in my defense does say for fungus and bacteria
on the label) and he died late that night.
5. Two rasboras died two days after with no signs of infection or rot.
Another rasbora was swimming in a spiral motion so I took him back to
the pet store and they said they would try to save him. I changed half
the water but did not retreat with Jungle Clear.

I figured the other rasboras would die but they didn't. So far they
appear healthy and strong but so did the others right up until they
died. The rasboras that are alive don't seem to have much of an
appetite. They nibble a bit but not much. I've been feeding them once
per day. I plan to change 20% of the water in a few days.

I just checked the water quality and everything was fine except Nitrites
which are starting to rise again so I added a conditioner made by Prime
to remove ammonia and detoxify nitrites and nitrates until I can do
another partial water change.

--
Mac Cool

Prime is an excellent choice for nitrite de-toxifying, but you need to
make sure your tank is cycled properly. I would consider adding filter
media from an established aquarium.
I also would consider a Spirulina Flake that has Spirulina as the #1
ingredient such as Spirulina 20.
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....ina20Food.html
This is easier to digest and more importantly helps the immune system.
Make sure you also have a kH of at least 80 ppm, even for rasboras as
research has shown that calcium is important for proper osmotic
function and disease resistance.

As for treatment I have differ with this statement
" Most seasoned hobbyists will say the same. Never treat with medications that you don't know about; don't know what you are treating for, and for no reason. That's wise advice."
I have been professionally involved in this business for 27 years (hard
to convince some at groups like Freshwater Aquarium), and if you fish
have been dying and your water parameters are generally good, something
is wrong. How do learn about anything but by trying it out,
researching, and following others advice? That is why no one learns or
will label some products as trash without even trying them. I have
tried and researched and followed others links out of respect to see
what I can learn.
I often have seen similar problems with rasboras and tetras and
achieved results with Kanacyn (more gram negative) or erythromyacin
(more gram positive) and I have combined both in severe cases.
As I posted earlier Pimafix can be useful and so can the very new
treatment of usnic acid (found in Usnea Lichen) that many arrogant
aquarists still are not familiar with.
Also as I stated earlier, calcium and electrolytes are important for
your fish' recovery which is where regular wonder shells of the
medicated wonder shells shine (the medicated can be used as a
preventative which is where I use them a lot in my business, but not
constantly as no med should be).
Prophylactic treatment is also wise when new fish are introduced with
safe meds (best in a hospital tank when possible). I would also note
that I have observed Aquarisol work for treatment of Neon Tetra
disease (as well as Naladixic acid).

The bottum line is to make sure ALL your water parameters are correct
from ammonia to kH to even Redox, with the parameters are reasonably
good yet your fish are dying, you need to treat with the proper meds
and perform regular small water changes.

For more Medication info (including Usnea):
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....edication.html

Carl
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....formation.html
http://aquarium-info.blogspot.com/

Another note is to consider the methylene blue (mebromine works too)
baths, they are effective intitial treatments and have the advantage of
not being in your display tank. Methylene blue will also help with some
internal infections, especially infections of the blood.

Carl