A new tank without cycling

A couple of threads have made comments about cycling in a new tank that
I disagree with. For example, that it is impossible to cycle a new tank
without harming the fish and hence you must use "rubbish fish".

I have never lost a fish in cycling in a tank. Probably the main reason
is that I really understock the tank to start off with. Here's my method.

Most of the time I start a new tank is when my fish have just produced
their eggs so I have a couple of weeks notice in order to get ready. In
this case, I put an extra filter into one of my tanks and let it run
there so that is is full of bacteria. Sometimes I don't have this luxury.

I keep my fry in a net in the main tank for a couple of weeks. When I
am ready to give them their own tank, I take the dirty filter medium out
of one of the canister filters and rinse it out in the new tank. The
water turns into a murky grey/green soup. I then put the filter in the
tank and let it run for a couple of hours until the water is a little
clearer. I then dump the juvenilles into the new tank.

The "pond scum" from the canister filter settles all over the bottom of
the tank, making it pretty gross for the first couple of weeks. A lot
gets sucked into the filter, but far from all of it.

Thats it, the tank is now established. After a few water changes, most
of the pond scum has disappeared, but by then the bacteria is well
established in the tank.

With this method, I am putting in much more bacteria in the tank than is
needed for the tank, so the bacteria level will fall as the tank
establishes itself rather than building up.

When I set up a new tank at school for my science students, I often
don't get around to establishing the new filter first, but this doesn't
seem to make much difference. I make a party trick out of making the
water as murky as possible and then dumping a few fish in straight away.
The kids always accuse me of trying to kill the fish and are amazed
the next day to see the fish swimming around happily in much clearer
water. I then use this as a lead in to explaining the nitrogen cycle.

Note that although the bacteria level drops off, the algae in the pond
scum does not, so this does not add to the level of ammonia in the tank.

Jim Morcombe wrote:

A couple of threads have made comments about cycling in a new tank that
I disagree with. For example, that it is impossible to cycle a new tank
without harming the fish and hence you must use "rubbish fish".

I have never lost a fish in cycling in a tank. Probably the main reason
is that I really understock the tank to start off with. Here's my method.

Same here. There is no reason to lose fish, and an understanding on the
nitrogen cycle makes it easy. Plant life is an aid as well, of course, and
it loaves all forms on N, including NH3, NO2 as well as NO3.

I dump in gunk at times as well, it looks murky, but it gets and bacteria
into the tank and will clear soon enough.

Starting with fry is great as well as you start with a low bioload and build
up. I currently have rainbowfish fry in a tank and started that with new
fish and some seeding, and they have done very well.

I like all fish, and all types can be fun and 'valuable' in their own way. I
don't think much of the idea of trash or disposable fish.

Most of the time I start a new tank is when my fish have just produced
their eggs so I have a couple of weeks notice in order to get ready. In
this case, I put an extra filter into one of my tanks and let it run
there so that is is full of bacteria. Sometimes I don't have this luxury.

I keep my fry in a net in the main tank for a couple of weeks. When I
am ready to give them their own tank, I take the dirty filter medium out
of one of the canister filters and rinse it out in the new tank. The
water turns into a murky grey/green soup. I then put the filter in the
tank and let it run for a couple of hours until the water is a little
clearer. I then dump the juvenilles into the new tank.

The "pond scum" from the canister filter settles all over the bottom of
the tank, making it pretty gross for the first couple of weeks. A lot
gets sucked into the filter, but far from all of it.

Thats it, the tank is now established. After a few water changes, most
of the pond scum has disappeared, but by then the bacteria is well
established in the tank.

With this method, I am putting in much more bacteria in the tank than is
needed for the tank, so the bacteria level will fall as the tank
establishes itself rather than building up.

When I set up a new tank at school for my science students, I often
don't get around to establishing the new filter first, but this doesn't
seem to make much difference. I make a party trick out of making the
water as murky as possible and then dumping a few fish in straight away.
The kids always accuse me of trying to kill the fish and are amazed
the next day to see the fish swimming around happily in much clearer
water. I then use this as a lead in to explaining the nitrogen cycle.

Note that although the bacteria level drops off, the algae in the pond
scum does not, so this does not add to the level of ammonia in the tank.

Jim Morcombe wrote:
A couple of threads have made comments about cycling in a new tank
that I disagree with. For example, that it is impossible to cycle a new
tank without harming the fish and hence you must use "rubbish fish".

Hardy fish, not "rubbish" fish... and i didn't see anyone being daft enough
to say it's impossible to perform a fishless cycle.

You go on to say how easy it is to cycle a new tank when you have existing
tanks... this is common knowledge... but what you haven't mentioned is how
to cycle a new tank without the help of mature filter media.

Without mature media, there are three options

1. Put in a couple of hardy fish
2. Use a commercial bio-media to kick start
3. Do a fishless cycle, preferably using ammonia.

For someone setting up a tank for the first time, probably the best advice
is to get the tank set up, preferably with a few plants, and leave the
filter running for a week or two... then put in a couple of hardy fish and
leave it for a couple more weeks before stocking it further.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Jim Morcombe wrote:
A couple of threads have made comments about cycling in a new tank that
I disagree with. For example, that it is impossible to cycle a new tank
without harming the fish and hence you must use "rubbish fish".

I have never lost a fish in cycling in a tank. Probably the main reason
is that I really understock the tank to start off with. Here's my method.

Most of the time I start a new tank is when my fish have just produced
their eggs so I have a couple of weeks notice in order to get ready. In
this case, I put an extra filter into one of my tanks and let it run
there so that is is full of bacteria. Sometimes I don't have this luxury.

I keep my fry in a net in the main tank for a couple of weeks. When I
am ready to give them their own tank, I take the dirty filter medium out
of one of the canister filters and rinse it out in the new tank. The
water turns into a murky grey/green soup. I then put the filter in the
tank and let it run for a couple of hours until the water is a little
clearer. I then dump the juvenilles into the new tank.

The "pond scum" from the canister filter settles all over the bottom of
the tank, making it pretty gross for the first couple of weeks. A lot
gets sucked into the filter, but far from all of it.

Thats it, the tank is now established. After a few water changes, most
of the pond scum has disappeared, but by then the bacteria is well
established in the tank.

With this method, I am putting in much more bacteria in the tank than is
needed for the tank, so the bacteria level will fall as the tank
establishes itself rather than building up.

When I set up a new tank at school for my science students, I often
don't get around to establishing the new filter first, but this doesn't
seem to make much difference. I make a party trick out of making the
water as murky as possible and then dumping a few fish in straight away.
The kids always accuse me of trying to kill the fish and are amazed
the next day to see the fish swimming around happily in much clearer
water. I then use this as a lead in to explaining the nitrogen cycle.

Note that although the bacteria level drops off, the algae in the pond
scum does not, so this does not add to the level of ammonia in the tank.

I have to wonder if you have ever checked the gill tissue of the fish
you have used to cycle a tank (without using filter media or gravel
from an established tank). Even with doing many water changes the
cycling fish still become "harmed". Their gills show burn damage.
This isn't my opinion, it's a fact.
So just because they aren't dead doesn't mean they aren't harmed. They
can also live many years and you would never know that their gill
tissue is scarred up.
Also, as for simply squeezing an established filter's media into the
tank and leaving the muck behind and *not* the actual filter pad, you
have not added the nitrifying bacteria to the new tank. The bacteria
secrete a glue like substance and adhere themselves to the surface of
the pad, gravel, tank walls, plants, decor, etc. of the established
tank.
They do not fall off the filter pad when you squeeze it out, nor do
they float about in the water as some people may think.
This sticky substance was found by scientists within like the last 10
yrs.
Many older hobbyists still think you can take the debris or squeeze out
a filter pad and seed a new tank, however, you cannot.

I don't think anyone would disagree that seeding a new tank with old
tank media is a fast and effective method of tank cycling. The fish
cycling vs. fishless cycling debate derives from cycling a tank from
scratch where fish are exposed to dangerous toxin levels. In this case,
fish often succumb to ammonia poisoning and those that do survive often
experience burned gills and compromised immune systems drastically
shortening their lives. The question that is presented is, is it ok to
kill or injure any fish for the purpose of cycling an aquarium?

Christie

Jim Morcombe wrote:
A couple of threads have made comments about cycling in a new tank that
I disagree with. For example, that it is impossible to cycle a new tank
without harming the fish and hence you must use "rubbish fish".

I have never lost a fish in cycling in a tank. Probably the main reason
is that I really understock the tank to start off with. Here's my method.

Most of the time I start a new tank is when my fish have just produced
their eggs so I have a couple of weeks notice in order to get ready. In
this case, I put an extra filter into one of my tanks and let it run
there so that is is full of bacteria. Sometimes I don't have this luxury.

I keep my fry in a net in the main tank for a couple of weeks. When I
am ready to give them their own tank, I take the dirty filter medium out
of one of the canister filters and rinse it out in the new tank. The
water turns into a murky grey/green soup. I then put the filter in the
tank and let it run for a couple of hours until the water is a little
clearer. I then dump the juvenilles into the new tank.

The "pond scum" from the canister filter settles all over the bottom of
the tank, making it pretty gross for the first couple of weeks. A lot
gets sucked into the filter, but far from all of it.

Thats it, the tank is now established. After a few water changes, most
of the pond scum has disappeared, but by then the bacteria is well
established in the tank.

With this method, I am putting in much more bacteria in the tank than is
needed for the tank, so the bacteria level will fall as the tank
establishes itself rather than building up.

When I set up a new tank at school for my science students, I often
don't get around to establishing the new filter first, but this doesn't
seem to make much difference. I make a party trick out of making the
water as murky as possible and then dumping a few fish in straight away.
The kids always accuse me of trying to kill the fish and are amazed
the next day to see the fish swimming around happily in much clearer
water. I then use this as a lead in to explaining the nitrogen cycle.

Note that although the bacteria level drops off, the algae in the pond
scum does not, so this does not add to the level of ammonia in the tank.

Tynk,

I didn't realize this. I am guilty of doing the filter "swish" in the
new tank whenever I change out the media. I've never done it to cycle a
tank but I always thought it would help when I'm replacing the media
bag with a clean one. Go figure.


Tynk wrote:
Also, as for simply squeezing an established filter's media into the
tank and leaving the muck behind and *not* the actual filter pad, you
have not added the nitrifying bacteria to the new tank. The bacteria
secrete a glue like substance and adhere themselves to the surface of
the pad, gravel, tank walls, plants, decor, etc. of the established
tank.
They do not fall off the filter pad when you squeeze it out, nor do
they float about in the water as some people may think.
This sticky substance was found by scientists within like the last 10
yrs.
Many older hobbyists still think you can take the debris or squeeze out
a filter pad and seed a new tank, however, you cannot.

IDzine01 wrote:

Tynk,

I didn't realize this. I am guilty of doing the filter "swish" in the
new tank whenever I change out the media. I've never done it to cycle a
tank but I always thought it would help when I'm replacing the media
bag with a clean one. Go figure.

Using media and substrate is better, but you will get a certain amount of
bacteria in gunk as well. The bacteria are not fussy about what they adhere
to, so they will adhere to all sorts of debris and particles. When you
swish out dirt and organic out of a filter pan, there will be some bacteria
adhered to a lot of that.

Tynk wrote:
Also, as for simply squeezing an established filter's media into the
tank and leaving the muck behind and *not* the actual filter pad, you
have not added the nitrifying bacteria to the new tank. The bacteria
secrete a glue like substance and adhere themselves to the surface of
the pad, gravel, tank walls, plants, decor, etc. of the established
tank.
They do not fall off the filter pad when you squeeze it out, nor do
they float about in the water as some people may think.
This sticky substance was found by scientists within like the last 10
yrs.
Many older hobbyists still think you can take the debris or squeeze out
a filter pad and seed a new tank, however, you cannot.

IDzine01 wrote:
Tynk,

I didn't realize this. I am guilty of doing the filter "swish" in the
new tank whenever I change out the media. I've never done it to cycle a
tank but I always thought it would help when I'm replacing the media
bag with a clean one. Go figure.


Tynk wrote:
Also, as for simply squeezing an established filter's media into the
tank and leaving the muck behind and *not* the actual filter pad, you
have not added the nitrifying bacteria to the new tank. The bacteria
secrete a glue like substance and adhere themselves to the surface of
the pad, gravel, tank walls, plants, decor, etc. of the established
tank.
They do not fall off the filter pad when you squeeze it out, nor do
they float about in the water as some people may think.
This sticky substance was found by scientists within like the last 10
yrs.
Many older hobbyists still think you can take the debris or squeeze out
a filter pad and seed a new tank, however, you cannot.

Christie,
I used to think this way as well.
I did it a million times. I also use old tank water to help speed it
up. I also saved old tank water when I moved to this house 18 yrs ago,
so to keep the bacteria....so I thought.
Modern science has proven this to be untrue.
There are different types of bacteria in the nitrifying cycle. The ones
that start up the cycle are not the ones we used to think they are. It
used to be thought that they were "nitrosomas" that converted ammonia
to nitrite and then "nitrobacter" bacteria would convert that to
nitrite.
However, it's been learned that nitrospira bacteria are actually the
start up bacteria.
This is why products such as Stress Zyme, Bio Zyme, Bacterboost (if I
have the name right, I'm not sure at all on that one) all have the
wrong bacteria in them. They can get away with claiming they cycle a
tank without getting sued because these bacteria are *technically*
part of the cycling process. When one uses one of these products to
"cycle" their tank, they really aren't. The tank still has to build the
nitrospira bacteria. So when you add fish , you are technically still
cycling with fish.
Science has also proven recently that the nitrifying bacteria are so
"glued" to surfaces that even very strong water cannot break them
loose.
Knowing this current information, how would squeezing a filter pad in a
new tank release them. It wouldn't. It's just outdated information.
Kind of like the old, or rather better said, not current generation
still telling folks the "one inch per gallon rule". = )~

Tynk wrote:
IDzine01 wrote:
Tynk,

I didn't realize this. I am guilty of doing the filter "swish" in the
new tank whenever I change out the media. I've never done it to cycle a
tank but I always thought it would help when I'm replacing the media
bag with a clean one. Go figure.


Tynk wrote:
Also, as for simply squeezing an established filter's media into the
tank and leaving the muck behind and *not* the actual filter pad, you
have not added the nitrifying bacteria to the new tank. The bacteria
secrete a glue like substance and adhere themselves to the surface of
the pad, gravel, tank walls, plants, decor, etc. of the established
tank.
They do not fall off the filter pad when you squeeze it out, nor do
they float about in the water as some people may think.
This sticky substance was found by scientists within like the last 10
yrs.
Many older hobbyists still think you can take the debris or squeeze out
a filter pad and seed a new tank, however, you cannot.

Christie,
I used to think this way as well.
I did it a million times. I also use old tank water to help speed it
up. I also saved old tank water when I moved to this house 18 yrs ago,
so to keep the bacteria....so I thought.
Modern science has proven this to be untrue.

However, it's been learned that nitrospira bacteria are actually the
start up bacteria.
This is why products such as Stress Zyme, Bio Zyme, Bacterboost (if I
have the name right, I'm not sure at all on that one) all have the
wrong bacteria in them. They can get away with claiming they cycle a
tank without getting sued because these bacteria are *technically*
part of the cycling process. When one uses one of these products to
"cycle" their tank, they really aren't. The tank still has to build the
nitrospira bacteria. So when you add fish , you are technically still
cycling with fish.
Science has also proven recently that the nitrifying bacteria are so
"glued" to surfaces that even very strong water cannot break them
loose.
Knowing this current information, how would squeezing a filter pad in a
new tank release them. It wouldn't. It's just outdated information.
Kind of like the old, or rather better said, not current generation
still telling folks the "one inch per gallon rule". = )~

oops...type -o....

There are different types of bacteria in the nitrifying cycle. The
ones
that start up the cycle are not the ones we used to think they are. It
used to be thought that they were "nitrosomas" that converted ammonia
to nitrite and then "nitrobacter" bacteria would convert that to
nitrite..

I meant to say:
Nitrosomas breaking down the ammonia and then the nitrobacter bacteria
would convert it to nitrite, and so on.

Tynk wrote:
Jim Morcombe wrote:

A couple of threads have made comments about cycling in a new tank that
I disagree with. For example, that it is impossible to cycle a new tank
without harming the fish and hence you must use "rubbish fish".

I have never lost a fish in cycling in a tank. Probably the main reason
is that I really understock the tank to start off with. Here's my method.

Most of the time I start a new tank is when my fish have just produced
their eggs so I have a couple of weeks notice in order to get ready. In
this case, I put an extra filter into one of my tanks and let it run
there so that is is full of bacteria. Sometimes I don't have this luxury.

I keep my fry in a net in the main tank for a couple of weeks. When I
am ready to give them their own tank, I take the dirty filter medium out
of one of the canister filters and rinse it out in the new tank. The
water turns into a murky grey/green soup. I then put the filter in the
tank and let it run for a couple of hours until the water is a little
clearer. I then dump the juvenilles into the new tank.

The "pond scum" from the canister filter settles all over the bottom of
the tank, making it pretty gross for the first couple of weeks. A lot
gets sucked into the filter, but far from all of it.

Thats it, the tank is now established. After a few water changes, most
of the pond scum has disappeared, but by then the bacteria is well
established in the tank.

With this method, I am putting in much more bacteria in the tank than is
needed for the tank, so the bacteria level will fall as the tank
establishes itself rather than building up.

When I set up a new tank at school for my science students, I often
don't get around to establishing the new filter first, but this doesn't
seem to make much difference. I make a party trick out of making the
water as murky as possible and then dumping a few fish in straight away.
The kids always accuse me of trying to kill the fish and are amazed
the next day to see the fish swimming around happily in much clearer
water. I then use this as a lead in to explaining the nitrogen cycle.

Note that although the bacteria level drops off, the algae in the pond
scum does not, so this does not add to the level of ammonia in the tank.


I have to wonder if you have ever checked the gill tissue of the fish
you have used to cycle a tank (without using filter media or gravel
from an established tank). Even with doing many water changes the
cycling fish still become "harmed". Their gills show burn damage.
This isn't my opinion, it's a fact.
So just because they aren't dead doesn't mean they aren't harmed. They
can also live many years and you would never know that their gill
tissue is scarred up.
Also, as for simply squeezing an established filter's media into the
tank and leaving the muck behind and *not* the actual filter pad, you
have not added the nitrifying bacteria to the new tank. The bacteria
secrete a glue like substance and adhere themselves to the surface of
the pad, gravel, tank walls, plants, decor, etc. of the established
tank.
They do not fall off the filter pad when you squeeze it out, nor do
they float about in the water as some people may think.
This sticky substance was found by scientists within like the last 10
yrs.
Many older hobbyists still think you can take the debris or squeeze out
a filter pad and seed a new tank, however, you cannot.

I must disagree with you on this point. You are half right in that the
bacteria do adhere to the filter pads and filter media. However they
also adhere to the rocks and gravel in the tank. They also adhere to
the plants and other vegetation in the tank. And...surprise,
surprise...they also adhere to the algae that builds up in the filter
media. In fact, because of the constant supply of nutrients passing
through the filter, the bacteria content within the pond scum is quite
high and it will seed an aquarium quite successfully.

You are right in that it is almost impossible to start a new tank
without seeding it and expect the amonia and nitrite levels to remain
within desirable limits - and yes, this would likely scar the gill
tissue of the fish. With low levels of stocking, it can be controlled
by frequent water changes - but this is counter productive in that you
are removing the nitrites that are needed to feed the bacteria and hence
you are increasing the time to reach an acceptable equalibrium.