Newbie aquarium question

Tristan wrote:

Same for that wet bagged live sand that is sold. HOw much good do you
really think that stuff serves. I see bags of it that are expired, or
laying on a stores display shelf in direct sunlight and hot/warm, it
sets for days on end in a hot truck while being transported, or in a
cold truck during winter.......Best bet on that sand is buy cheaper
dry pack sand and get a cup of live sand from someones established
tank or add live rock and let it seed the sand with bacteria. Thats
all the bagged sand is capable of having anyhow, and that can come
from good live rock anyhow....

I used dry sand as the substrate....the tank is now 4 months old and the
substrate is alive and crawling with all sorts of life and has been for
the majority of time that it has been in the tank since the LR was added
- so my conclusion was that dead sand will become live sand quite
quickly and at a fraction of cost to whatever might be sold as "live
sand". I even took this live/dead thing a bit further and used "dead"
rock as well as the live stuff when setting up the tank....the "dead"
rock is now very much alive and again cost a fraction of the price of
the live stuff - I guess the key was to find the balance in quantity
between the live and dead (I guess I did 2/3 LR and 1/3 dead) and also
to be very slow/patient about the additions of anything into the
tank....of course, when it comes to buying the LR it also has to be
remembered, well certainly for the stuff I buy, the coral colonies/frags
are actually sited on Live Rock - which again just adds more and more
into the equation and balance of the tank

Gill





On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:40:45 GMT, "TheRock" wrote:

I meant "purchasing cured rock"...you are correct.
And to further clarify...internet cured rock.

Especially when they ship it in wet newspapers.


"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:9Ntqh.386$AG6.142@trnddc06...
TheRock wrote:

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but i believe there is no such thing as
cured rock.

Live rock that has been marinated in water (as you put it) until nothing
dies anymore is said to be "cured live rock." The curing process typically
involves low light levels, lots of circulation, and large water changes.

George Patterson
Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Other than stuff that is on the rock like various critters etc, which
I view as a bonus, as the main reason I want live rock is for a
bacteria house, it is indeed cheaper to use cheap live rock or dead
base rock for a lot less money and add a nice piece or two of good
live rock and allow it to seed. Same for the sand. Its gonna get most
of its critters from the live rock used to seed, or a some what more
diverse mix of critters from a cup or two of live sand removed from a
exisiting tank. Dry bagged sand is what is most common here or natural
sand from the Gulf of mexico region is what a lot of folks use. Then
they head to a friend house and scrounge a cup or two of live sand or
head to a lFS and buy a cup or two. It may all take a bit longer but
what the hey, its stlil neat to watch stuff grow and get established
and still be able to keep a few bucks in your wallet......the end
result is the same it just takes a bit longer......Another good item
to add pods and some other critters is a wad of chaeto or calurpea
macro algae.



On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 19:06:23 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

Tristan wrote:

Same for that wet bagged live sand that is sold. HOw much good do you
really think that stuff serves. I see bags of it that are expired, or
laying on a stores display shelf in direct sunlight and hot/warm, it
sets for days on end in a hot truck while being transported, or in a
cold truck during winter.......Best bet on that sand is buy cheaper
dry pack sand and get a cup of live sand from someones established
tank or add live rock and let it seed the sand with bacteria. Thats
all the bagged sand is capable of having anyhow, and that can come
from good live rock anyhow....

I used dry sand as the substrate....the tank is now 4 months old and the
substrate is alive and crawling with all sorts of life and has been for
the majority of time that it has been in the tank since the LR was added
- so my conclusion was that dead sand will become live sand quite
quickly and at a fraction of cost to whatever might be sold as "live
sand". I even took this live/dead thing a bit further and used "dead"
rock as well as the live stuff when setting up the tank....the "dead"
rock is now very much alive and again cost a fraction of the price of
the live stuff - I guess the key was to find the balance in quantity
between the live and dead (I guess I did 2/3 LR and 1/3 dead) and also
to be very slow/patient about the additions of anything into the
tank....of course, when it comes to buying the LR it also has to be
remembered, well certainly for the stuff I buy, the coral colonies/frags
are actually sited on Live Rock - which again just adds more and more
into the equation and balance of the tank

Gill





On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:40:45 GMT, "TheRock" wrote:

I meant "purchasing cured rock"...you are correct.
And to further clarify...internet cured rock.

Especially when they ship it in wet newspapers.


"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:9Ntqh.386$AG6.142@trnddc06...
TheRock wrote:

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but i believe there is no such thing as
cured rock.

Live rock that has been marinated in water (as you put it) until nothing
dies anymore is said to be "cured live rock." The curing process typically
involves low light levels, lots of circulation, and large water changes.

George Patterson
Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Tristan" wrote in message
...

Oh, goodie a place for Roy Tristan to go to once rec.ponds.moderated is up
and all the other aquaia groups follow suit and go moderated, at least
Roy Tristan will not be a homeless yankee carpet bagger like he was when
his last working gal dumped him along I-40


Some are isolated from the other setups but I do have 6 on one system
and 3 on another that utilize a common sump/fuge

All separate picos however do have as large a Aqua Clear filter HOB
type on them for additional capacity and toprovide a modest fuge...and
a place for adding carbon is nbecessary and a pllace for the heaters.
Last count is a total of 11 PICO (2 gal or less) tanks . They make
better night nlights etc than typical night lights do, plus they give
me a place ot create new micro reefs when I frag corals etc. After
they get size and growth to them I incorporate them into the larger
tanks, and start again in the Pico tanks.

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 23:09:57 -0500, KurtG
wrote:

Tristan wrote:
I have a bunch of pico tanks 2
gal or less that have been up and runing for two or more years and
do
just fine.


Hi Tristan,

Are all your tanks isolated?

--Kurt



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Tristan" wrote in message
news


Evidently Tristan Roy is out peddling his wares. I did if yu read the post
tell you what and where to go and if yu did that you would have
already had yur questions answered and a suggestin made to a cure if
possible. No, yu owud rather **** around and bitch with what was
opsted, than takeup the info and go with it. Hope your freaking fish
croaks now dude, sorry, but your not fit to keep fish if yu can not
take a suggestion and have to fuss in stead! I suggest re-reading that
reply and doing what was suggested if your really at all concerned.
Get the **** over it!

There is lots of debate on what is cured or cycled rock as different
places use these terms interchangebly. My lfs hewre sells rock that
is fully cured........in other words if its pulled from their tank,
and placed in water, and carried homoe and placed in your tank with
little to no exposure or fooling aorund there would not be enough of
die off to make it noticeable. They sell only fully cured/cycled rock
that is ready to place in the tank (within a reasonabale time frame )
and within a day or two its more than safe to start adding fish.

I have cycled lots of tanks already, and do find that when ammonia and
nitrite levels get too high stuff on the rock and in the rock starts
to die as well. So I try and keep my ammonia and nitrite levels as as
possible (Ammonia no higher than say 1 or 1.5) . It may take a bit
longer but I get much more diverse critters that survive the cycle
times.

The rock the lFS here sells is some nice rock, and lots of goodies
come on it..Its not unusual to find small tiny polyps of yuma or other
shrooms.....as well as sea squirts, sponge and dusters.......brittle
serpent stars etc.

I much prefer to take longer in getting a tank cycled than do it
faster with aditivies like dead shrimp etc or usuing live fish. It
will still cycle, and also keep my ammonia and nitrite levels low. I
do water changes during cycle so levels are not high, and I run a
skimmer most of the times.



On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:09:25 GMT, "TheRock" wrote:


"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I just bought a 25gallon aquarium about a week ago and put the
substate
and live rock in it. I haven't put coral and fish in and today I
suddenly found the water turned yellow!

I have pumps (Rio 800) running and using Biological filter calls..
What
do you guys think the problem come from? I changed water (about 60%
change) today but still feel water is yellow. What do you think?
Shall
I do a complete water change?

Thanks!


OK I'm a newbie but want to ask a few questions of you....or clarify
that
you are following the same concepts that I am....

The point of Live Rock is that it does your filtration for
you....once it
is cured of course and most of the die off has happened - and this
die off
is generally down to shipping and the decay of stuff that died
during
shipping - cured rock is a good way to go when starting up unless
you are
prepared to wait for it to cure itself - and it sounds pretty much
to me
that this is what you are doing....even if unintended....uncured
rock is
cheaper because your LFS hasn't made the investment of keeping it
for
weeks to do it themselves....

Mechanical and convential biological filtration, from my research,
are
fine if you want a fish only tank....but they will mean that your
nitrates
and phosphates will be at a level that can sustain fish but not
inverts....so it is a choice as to what your priorities are......I
want
corals, inverts and fish so have opted for all my "filtration" and
"conversions" being done by my live rock and now live sand (the sand
having been populated by the creatures in my rock)....

I know that you have been asked about whether you have a protein
skimmer
or not....from my experience with my little 15 gall Nano I would not
be
without one....this yellow water you are talking about is what I
empty
into the sink from the cup of my skimmer.....what I see in the cup
of the
skimmer is enough to freak me as to what it would be like if I
didn't have
my cheap budget protein skimmer (cost me £18 plus the air pump -
£22)....it has to be said every penny spent is well worth it...and
if we
got into a larger tank (or even my small tank) - if you evaluate the
cost
of your corals against this one essential piece of kit the cost
works
out.....the loss of your frags at between £20 and £40 pounds
compared to a
more expensive model still costs out well - let alone the emotional
cost
and the frustration....

Gill


Somebody correct me if I am wrong but i believe there is no such thing
as
cured rock.
As soon as you remove it from the ocean everything on it and in it
starts to
die.
It's is possible to get rock from a LFS that has been marinating in
water
and you can get it home quickly. But still, live rock doesn't come
with all
the goodies
that it would have as it was in the ocean.

GET YOURSELF A SKIMMER MAN !!! : )




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Tristan" wrote in message
...
said:
Yep your assumption is right.Evidently Roy Tristan is out peddling his
wares. I did if yu read the post
tell you what and where to go and if yu did that you would have
already had yur questions answered and a suggestin made to a cure if
possible. No, yu owud rather **** around and bitch with what was
opsted, than takeup the info and go with it. Hope your freaking fish
croaks now dude, sorry, but your not fit to keep fish if yu can not
take a suggestion and have to fuss in stead! I suggest re-reading that
reply and doing what was suggested if your really at all concerned.
Get the **** over it!



On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:11:34 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

George Patterson wrote:

Live rock that has been marinated in water (as you put it) until
nothing
dies anymore is said to be "cured live rock." The curing process
typically involves low light levels, lots of circulation, and large
water changes.

George Patterson
Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

This is my understanding of "cured live rock" as well.....one of the
guys at the lfs was chatting to me about the latest batch of LR that
they had got in and how they were needing to empty the cup on the
Protein Skimmer multiple times a day when usually, after the die off
it
would be daily at most....

I'm guessing from my experience that there was also a certain degree
of
die off when I put the rock into my little 15 gall tank (but much less
than would have happened if the rock hadn't been "cured") - certainly
I
was getting stuff in the cup of the Protein Skimmer without having
anything in the tank other than the LR but this was minimal compared
to
what I get now with fish, corals and inverts in there....

Gill



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Tristan" wrote in message
...

Yep your assumption is right.Evidently Roy Tristan is out peddling his
wares. I did if yu read the post
tell you what and where to go and if yu did that you would have
already had yur questions answered and a suggestin made to a cure if
possible. No, yu owud rather **** around and bitch with what was
opsted, than takeup the info and go with it. Hope your freaking fish
croaks now dude, sorry, but your not fit to keep fish if yu can not
take a suggestion and have to fuss in stead! I suggest re-reading that
reply and doing what was suggested if your really at all concerned.
Get the **** over it!


No such thing as Internet Cured live rock once it is pulled and packed
and in transit., it once again becomes rock in need of curing. Closet
yur gonna come to actual real cured live rock is harvest it and place
in yur own tank imediately or but it cured at lfs and carry it home in
a bucket of SW and place in the tank with little to no exposure to
air or temp variations.....How fast it will go downhill is anyones
guess as it all depends on how much and what is on it to begin with.
Same for that wet bagged live sand that is sold. HOw much good do you
really think that stuff serves. I see bags of it that are expired, or
laying on a stores display shelf in direct sunlight and hot/warm, it
sets for days on end in a hot truck while being transported, or in a
cold truck during winter.......Best bet on that sand is buy cheaper
dry pack sand and get a cup of live sand from someones established
tank or add live rock and let it seed the sand with bacteria. Thats
all the bagged sand is capable of having anyhow, and that can come
from good live rock anyhow....

"Tristan" wrote in message
...

Yep your assumption is right.Evidently Roy Tristan is out peddling his
wares. I did if yu read the post
tell you what and where to go and if yu did that you would have
already had yur questions answered and a suggestin made to a cure if
possible. No, yu owud rather **** around and bitch with what was
opsted, than takeup the info and go with it. Hope your freaking fish
croaks now dude, sorry, but your not fit to keep fish if yu can not
take a suggestion and have to fuss in stead! I suggest re-reading that
reply and doing what was suggested if your really at all concerned.
Get the **** over it!


Other than stuff that is on the rock like various critters etc, which
I view as a bonus, as the main reason I want live rock is for a
bacteria house, it is indeed cheaper to use cheap live rock or dead
base rock for a lot less money and add a nice piece or two of good
live rock and allow it to seed. Same for the sand. Its gonna get most
of its critters from the live rock used to seed, or a some what more
diverse mix of critters from a cup or two of live sand removed from a
exisiting tank. Dry bagged sand is what is most common here or natural
sand from the Gulf of mexico region is what a lot of folks use. Then
they head to a friend house and scrounge a cup or two of live sand or
head to a lFS and buy a cup or two. It may all take a bit longer but
what the hey, its stlil neat to watch stuff grow and get established
and still be able to keep a few bucks in your wallet......the end
result is the same it just takes a bit longer......Another good item
to add pods and some other critters is a wad of chaeto or calurpea
macro algae.

TheRock wrote:
I meant "purchasing cured rock"...you are correct.
And to further clarify...internet cured rock.


http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQ...QsassZmrmarine

I just bought 30# of rock from this guy. As you say, it came wrapped in
plastic and wet newspapers, but it was clean and in good shape. I put
it in a vat for 10 days, and it did have a slight die off, but it wasn't
bad at all. I just put it in my tank.

--Kurt

TheRock wrote:
I meant "purchasing cured rock"...you are correct.
And to further clarify...internet cured rock.

Oh. Well, I found at least two sources when I was shopping for the stuff.
Unfortunately, I didn't save the links, since I was looking for uncured. One
outfit was in Maryland, and I think another was in Tampa.

George Patterson
Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.

Tristan wrote:


25 gal is not small for a marine tank.

Marine tank, or reef tank? I thought this was a reef group ;-)

I have a 20 and a 10 myself, and here is what *I* have noticed:

Calcium and carbonates can be an issue in smaller tanks - much less
water volume, so what is available gets used up quickly. I wind up
dumping in about a cup of b-ionic 2 part over a weeks time.

Also evaporation is a b*tch. If you have good aeration and circulation,
get get fast evaporation. When water volume is so low to begin with,
this means you have wild jumps in salinity unless you top off twice a
day or have an auto top off system. Oddly enough, even though my 20long
has about 3 times the surface area of my 10, evaporation in the 10 seems
to be worse than the 20(!?!) - I lose about 1 gal a day in the 10, and
maybe 1 half gal in the 20. Not sure why that is.

I have a bunch of pico tanks 2
gal or less that have been up and runing for two or more years and do
just fine. I even have a 1 quart PICO with a yasha hasha goby and
pistol shrimp ni it loaded with zoos and shrooms doing just fine. I
have yet another tiny pico tank made with a brandy snifter (less than
a quart) with a panda goby in it doing just fine for over a year now.


If temps can be managed properly, they are not any harder than any
other tank.


Temp is of course the hardest part of all when one has a small water
volume to work with. If room tempis not stable, keeoing the tank temp
stable will be a bear. Up here, in winter time, figure my living room is
gonna be 10-15 degrees colder at night then during day. ANd of course
during the day, I have my lights on over the tanks. So add another 5
degrees increase during the day. I had to put a 150 watt heater in my
20 gal to make up for the ambient drop at night, and it looks as if I
really need a chiller during the day due to my MH's. For now, I just
keep the heater set to 84 degrees (that is where the temp is during the
day with no heater - I want to keep it stable at nigh)

That all would be less of an issue if I had more water volume. Water
takes a lot of energy to change it's temp (which is why we use it in
radiators)

I see your pico's have all hardy stuff - try putting something like a
neon acro in one and get back to me about how it does.

Not saying one CAN'T do small marine or reef tanks, I'm just saying that
having more water volume DOES make things easier.