Newbie aquarium question

I do all reef tanks no matter what size. I do have a fish only tank
that wa sjust started whenI decided to convert a FW puffer to9 salt
environment, so its just rubble and sand and no corals. I have all
kinds of corals. If they can be kept under lots of PC I have it. I do
not fool with any that requires MH lights. Other than temp regulation
they just are not a problem. All are equipped with ATO and
skimmers......and all PICO's I have use home brew air powered counter
current skimmers that work pretty darn good. I wul dnot be afraid to
bet our temps here are more stable than temps up north of here, so
that does help a lot. I also run some of the tanks if I have problems
with temp at a high temperature as compared to others. Most run
however in the 81 to 82 and even an 83 deg or a bit more. ...but with
a bit of fiddling and playing the tmep swing is usually less than 2
deg on any of these tanks, so they are pretty darn stabil, but it took
a bit of fooling with to get them there.


On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:23:18 -0500, that *other* annoying little troll
wrote:

Tristan wrote:


25 gal is not small for a marine tank.

Marine tank, or reef tank? I thought this was a reef group ;-)

I have a 20 and a 10 myself, and here is what *I* have noticed:

Calcium and carbonates can be an issue in smaller tanks - much less
water volume, so what is available gets used up quickly. I wind up
dumping in about a cup of b-ionic 2 part over a weeks time.

Also evaporation is a b*tch. If you have good aeration and circulation,
get get fast evaporation. When water volume is so low to begin with,
this means you have wild jumps in salinity unless you top off twice a
day or have an auto top off system. Oddly enough, even though my 20long
has about 3 times the surface area of my 10, evaporation in the 10 seems
to be worse than the 20(!?!) - I lose about 1 gal a day in the 10, and
maybe 1 half gal in the 20. Not sure why that is.

I have a bunch of pico tanks 2
gal or less that have been up and runing for two or more years and do
just fine. I even have a 1 quart PICO with a yasha hasha goby and
pistol shrimp ni it loaded with zoos and shrooms doing just fine. I
have yet another tiny pico tank made with a brandy snifter (less than
a quart) with a panda goby in it doing just fine for over a year now.


If temps can be managed properly, they are not any harder than any
other tank.


Temp is of course the hardest part of all when one has a small water
volume to work with. If room tempis not stable, keeoing the tank temp
stable will be a bear. Up here, in winter time, figure my living room is
gonna be 10-15 degrees colder at night then during day. ANd of course
during the day, I have my lights on over the tanks. So add another 5
degrees increase during the day. I had to put a 150 watt heater in my
20 gal to make up for the ambient drop at night, and it looks as if I
really need a chiller during the day due to my MH's. For now, I just
keep the heater set to 84 degrees (that is where the temp is during the
day with no heater - I want to keep it stable at nigh)

That all would be less of an issue if I had more water volume. Water
takes a lot of energy to change it's temp (which is why we use it in
radiators)

I see your pico's have all hardy stuff - try putting something like a
neon acro in one and get back to me about how it does.

Not saying one CAN'T do small marine or reef tanks, I'm just saying that
having more water volume DOES make things easier.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Tristan" wrote in message
...


Hows the medicine Roy Tristan? Better than what you shove down old ladies
throats.... you eat up the attention?


Some are isolated from the other setups but I do have 6 on one system
and 3 on another that utilize a common sump/fuge

All separate picos however do have as large a Aqua Clear filter HOB
type on them for additional capacity and toprovide a modest fuge...and
a place for adding carbon is nbecessary and a pllace for the heaters.
Last count is a total of 11 PICO (2 gal or less) tanks . They make
better night nlights etc than typical night lights do, plus they give
me a place ot create new micro reefs when I frag corals etc. After
they get size and growth to them I incorporate them into the larger
tanks, and start again in the Pico tanks.

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 23:09:57 -0500, KurtG
wrote:

Tristan wrote:
I have a bunch of pico tanks 2
gal or less that have been up and runing for two or more years and
do
just fine.


Hi Tristan,

Are all your tanks isolated?

--Kurt



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

TheRock wrote:

Isn't high ammonia part of the cycle ?

Yes. Full cycle with a deep sand bed would be:
ammonia-nitrite-nitrate-nitrite-nitrous oxide-nitrogen

Don't you need it to cycle ? If you dilute the tank with water aren't you
just
removing bacteria that moves the cycle along and prolonging cycle time ?

depends.If the ammonia spike TOO high, bacteria will die.

When I started up my first tank (which wasn't that long ago) my ammonia
never got above 0.3 mg/ml. But I "cheated" - tank was initially filled
with "live" water, "live" sand, and I added a cup of crap out of one of
the LFS sumps to innoculate things (I use quotes around "live" water and
sand, since I question how live it can be after sitting in a sealed
containber for months. it WILL have active bacrteria spores in it, tho,
which DOES help)

I only ask because I didn't do it that way and I had plenty of pods and
worms
after the cycle.

Pods and worms are pretty hardy. Pods can take a LOT of abuse, from what
I have heard. (I had a pod "cultures" going for a while - water would
get just plain NASTY, with ammonia readings of like .6 or .8 range, and
pods were just fine with it) I think you would have had plenty of both
(pods and worms) no matter which way you went.

"Tristan" wrote in message
...

Is i t fun to stalk old ladies Tristan? tell us abuout the thrill it give
you you can't get any other way you sorry piece of ****.

Other than stuff that is on the rock like various critters etc, which
I view as a bonus, as the main reason I want live rock is for a
bacteria house, it is indeed cheaper to use cheap live rock or dead
base rock for a lot less money and add a nice piece or two of good
live rock and allow it to seed. Same for the sand. Its gonna get most
of its critters from the live rock used to seed, or a some what more
diverse mix of critters from a cup or two of live sand removed from a
exisiting tank. Dry bagged sand is what is most common here or natural
sand from the Gulf of mexico region is what a lot of folks use. Then
they head to a friend house and scrounge a cup or two of live sand or
head to a lFS and buy a cup or two. It may all take a bit longer but
what the hey, its stlil neat to watch stuff grow and get established
and still be able to keep a few bucks in your wallet......the end
result is the same it just takes a bit longer......Another good item
to add pods and some other critters is a wad of chaeto or calurpea
macro algae.



On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 19:06:23 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

Tristan wrote:

Same for that wet bagged live sand that is sold. HOw much good do
you
really think that stuff serves. I see bags of it that are expired,
or
laying on a stores display shelf in direct sunlight and hot/warm, it
sets for days on end in a hot truck while being transported, or in
a
cold truck during winter.......Best bet on that sand is buy cheaper
dry pack sand and get a cup of live sand from someones established
tank or add live rock and let it seed the sand with bacteria. Thats
all the bagged sand is capable of having anyhow, and that can come
from good live rock anyhow....

I used dry sand as the substrate....the tank is now 4 months old and
the
substrate is alive and crawling with all sorts of life and has been
for
the majority of time that it has been in the tank since the LR was
added
- so my conclusion was that dead sand will become live sand quite
quickly and at a fraction of cost to whatever might be sold as "live
sand". I even took this live/dead thing a bit further and used "dead"
rock as well as the live stuff when setting up the tank....the "dead"
rock is now very much alive and again cost a fraction of the price of
the live stuff - I guess the key was to find the balance in quantity
between the live and dead (I guess I did 2/3 LR and 1/3 dead) and also
to be very slow/patient about the additions of anything into the
tank....of course, when it comes to buying the LR it also has to be
remembered, well certainly for the stuff I buy, the coral
colonies/frags
are actually sited on Live Rock - which again just adds more and more
into the equation and balance of the tank

Gill





On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:40:45 GMT, "TheRock" wrote:

I meant "purchasing cured rock"...you are correct.
And to further clarify...internet cured rock.

Especially when they ship it in wet newspapers.


"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:9Ntqh.386$AG6.142@trnddc06...
TheRock wrote:

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but i believe there is no
such thing as
cured rock.

Live rock that has been marinated in water (as you put it)
until nothing
dies anymore is said to be "cured live rock." The curing
process typically
involves low light levels, lots of circulation, and large
water changes.

George Patterson
Forgive your enemies. But always remember who they are.




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Tristan" wrote in message
...

Give i t up Roy "TRistan" Hauer.........your a daya late and a dollar short
plus
your a bigger dumbass whithout a clue who is pronbe to telling lies or ad
libbing or lieing about what you post since its always phlagarized sp? Your
trolling is getting old and as you can see.... no one cares.........


25 gal is not small for a marine tank. I have a bunch of pico tanks 2
gal or less that have been up and runing for two or more years and do
just fine. I even have a 1 quart PICO with a yasha hasha goby and
pistol shrimp ni it loaded with zoos and shrooms doing just fine. I
have yet another tiny pico tank made with a brandy snifter (less than
a quart) with a panda goby in it doing just fine for over a year now.
If temps can be managed properly, they are not any harder than any
other tank.





On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 13:25:44 -0500, that *other* annoying little troll
wrote:

wrote:

I just bought a 25gallon aquarium about a week ago and put the
substate
and live rock in it. I haven't put coral and fish in and today I
suddenly found the water turned yellow!

I have pumps (Rio 800) running and using Biological filter calls..
What
do you guys think the problem come from? I changed water (about 60%
change) today but still feel water is yellow. What do you think?
Shall
I do a complete water change?

Thanks!


25 gal is small for a marine tank. Can be done, but it's trickier
with
a small tank like that.

Yellow is from stuff decomposing on the live rock. This happens with
new
live rock. it'll likely get a bit worse befpore it gets better.

Don't put any livestock in before this yellowing clears up. Don't fic
it
by changing the water (not yet anyway) - you will screw up the cycling
if you start changing water thois soon.

You don't mention if you have a skimmer or not. Skimmers are NOT
optional, no matter what you may have heard or been told. You need
one.
Get one. use it. It will pull a lot of the "yellow" out of your water.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

What shipping method did you select? How long did it take to get to
you? What state are you in?


KurtG wrote:
TheRock wrote:

I meant "purchasing cured rock"...you are correct.
And to further clarify...internet cured rock.



http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQ...QsassZmrmarine

I just bought 30# of rock from this guy. As you say, it came wrapped in
plastic and wet newspapers, but it was clean and in good shape. I put
it in a vat for 10 days, and it did have a slight die off, but it wasn't
bad at all. I just put it in my tank.

--Kurt

Yep that's right it's best to keep as much alive as one
can. A lot of people do a lot of killing in the name of
curing.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Tristan wrote on 1/14/2007 10:37 AM:

There is lots of debate on what is cured or cycled rock as different
places use these terms interchangebly. My lfs hewre sells rock that
is fully cured........in other words if its pulled from their tank,
and placed in water, and carried homoe and placed in your tank with
little to no exposure or fooling aorund there would not be enough of
die off to make it noticeable. They sell only fully cured/cycled rock
that is ready to place in the tank (within a reasonabale time frame )
and within a day or two its more than safe to start adding fish.

I have cycled lots of tanks already, and do find that when ammonia and
nitrite levels get too high stuff on the rock and in the rock starts
to die as well. So I try and keep my ammonia and nitrite levels as as
possible (Ammonia no higher than say 1 or 1.5) . It may take a bit
longer but I get much more diverse critters that survive the cycle
times.

The rock the lFS here sells is some nice rock, and lots of goodies
come on it..Its not unusual to find small tiny polyps of yuma or other
shrooms.....as well as sea squirts, sponge and dusters.......brittle
serpent stars etc.

I much prefer to take longer in getting a tank cycled than do it
faster with aditivies like dead shrimp etc or usuing live fish. It
will still cycle, and also keep my ammonia and nitrite levels low. I
do water changes during cycle so levels are not high, and I run a
skimmer most of the times.



On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:09:25 GMT, "TheRock" wrote:


"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I just bought a 25gallon aquarium about a week ago and put the substate
and live rock in it. I haven't put coral and fish in and today I
suddenly found the water turned yellow!

I have pumps (Rio 800) running and using Biological filter calls.. What
do you guys think the problem come from? I changed water (about 60%
change) today but still feel water is yellow. What do you think? Shall
I do a complete water change?

Thanks!


OK I'm a newbie but want to ask a few questions of you....or clarify that
you are following the same concepts that I am....

The point of Live Rock is that it does your filtration for you....once it
is cured of course and most of the die off has happened - and this die off
is generally down to shipping and the decay of stuff that died during
shipping - cured rock is a good way to go when starting up unless you are
prepared to wait for it to cure itself - and it sounds pretty much to me
that this is what you are doing....even if unintended....uncured rock is
cheaper because your LFS hasn't made the investment of keeping it for
weeks to do it themselves....

Mechanical and convential biological filtration, from my research, are
fine if you want a fish only tank....but they will mean that your nitrates
and phosphates will be at a level that can sustain fish but not
inverts....so it is a choice as to what your priorities are......I want
corals, inverts and fish so have opted for all my "filtration" and
"conversions" being done by my live rock and now live sand (the sand
having been populated by the creatures in my rock)....

I know that you have been asked about whether you have a protein skimmer
or not....from my experience with my little 15 gall Nano I would not be
without one....this yellow water you are talking about is what I empty
into the sink from the cup of my skimmer.....what I see in the cup of the
skimmer is enough to freak me as to what it would be like if I didn't have
my cheap budget protein skimmer (cost me £18 plus the air pump -
£22)....it has to be said every penny spent is well worth it...and if we
got into a larger tank (or even my small tank) - if you evaluate the cost
of your corals against this one essential piece of kit the cost works
out.....the loss of your frags at between £20 and £40 pounds compared to a
more expensive model still costs out well - let alone the emotional cost
and the frustration....

Gill


Somebody correct me if I am wrong but i believe there is no such thing as
cured rock.
As soon as you remove it from the ocean everything on it and in it starts to
die.
It's is possible to get rock from a LFS that has been marinating in water
and you can get it home quickly. But still, live rock doesn't come with all
the goodies
that it would have as it was in the ocean.

GET YOURSELF A SKIMMER MAN !!! : )




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Bacteria in the water is not very efficient. Bacteria
attached with water flowing across it is much more
efficient. For nitrification, the more surface area you
have for bacteria to grow and the more water flow you have
the better your biological filtration. You can actually
reduce ammonia levels simply by increasing water flow.
However, with live rock, increased water flow can also
increase ammonia levels. This is because if you have a
substantial amount of die off it gets more oxygenated
water and thus is less anaerobic. But even so it is better
to have more water flow to save the inhabitants, One can
also aerate the water to help drive off ammonia. It will
create salt creep, but since it's just temporary for
cycling purposes, it's not so bad. And by all means do
water changes to keep levels from getting too high.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



TheRock wrote on 1/14/2007 10:13 AM:
Isn't high ammonia part of the cycle ?
Don't you need it to cycle ? If you dilute the tank with water aren't you
just
removing bacteria that moves the cycle along and prolonging cycle time ?

I only ask because I didn't do it that way and I had plenty of pods and
worms
after the cycle.


"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
link.net...
I would do water changes if it is real high in ammonia or nitrite, in order
to preserve the life on the rock.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



TheRock wrote on 1/13/2007 7:17 AM:
Your tank is cycling...if you're seriously going to get into this hobby
one thing you need to learn up front is patience. Nothing happens
overnight.

You rock takes months to cure. You should not have changed your water at
all yet.
Do you have a protein skimmer ? While you're curing rock you should be
running a
protein skimmer 24/7 7 days a week. Smells good I bet : )


wrote in message
ups.com...
I just bought a 25gallon aquarium about a week ago and put the substate
and live rock in it. I haven't put coral and fish in and today I
suddenly found the water turned yellow!

I have pumps (Rio 800) running and using Biological filter calls.. What
do you guys think the problem come from? I changed water (about 60%
change) today but still feel water is yellow. What do you think? Shall
I do a complete water change?

Thanks!

NOW YOU TELL ME !!!
THANKS A LOT : )

"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
link.net...
Yep that's right it's best to keep as much alive as one can. A lot of
people do a lot of killing in the name of curing.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Tristan wrote on 1/14/2007 10:37 AM:

There is lots of debate on what is cured or cycled rock as different
places use these terms interchangebly. My lfs hewre sells rock that
is fully cured........in other words if its pulled from their tank,
and placed in water, and carried homoe and placed in your tank with
little to no exposure or fooling aorund there would not be enough of
die off to make it noticeable. They sell only fully cured/cycled rock
that is ready to place in the tank (within a reasonabale time frame )
and within a day or two its more than safe to start adding fish.

I have cycled lots of tanks already, and do find that when ammonia and
nitrite levels get too high stuff on the rock and in the rock starts
to die as well. So I try and keep my ammonia and nitrite levels as as
possible (Ammonia no higher than say 1 or 1.5) . It may take a bit
longer but I get much more diverse critters that survive the cycle
times.

The rock the lFS here sells is some nice rock, and lots of goodies
come on it..Its not unusual to find small tiny polyps of yuma or other
shrooms.....as well as sea squirts, sponge and dusters.......brittle
serpent stars etc. I much prefer to take longer in getting a tank cycled
than do it
faster with aditivies like dead shrimp etc or usuing live fish. It
will still cycle, and also keep my ammonia and nitrite levels low. I
do water changes during cycle so levels are not high, and I run a
skimmer most of the times.



On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:09:25 GMT, "TheRock" wrote:

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I just bought a 25gallon aquarium about a week ago and put the
substate
and live rock in it. I haven't put coral and fish in and today I
suddenly found the water turned yellow!

I have pumps (Rio 800) running and using Biological filter calls..
What
do you guys think the problem come from? I changed water (about
60%
change) today but still feel water is yellow. What do you think?
Shall
I do a complete water change?

Thanks!


OK I'm a newbie but want to ask a few questions of you....or
clarify that you are following the same concepts that I am....

The point of Live Rock is that it does your filtration for
you....once it is cured of course and most of the die off has
happened - and this die off is generally down to shipping and the
decay of stuff that died during shipping - cured rock is a good way
to go when starting up unless you are prepared to wait for it to
cure itself - and it sounds pretty much to me that this is what you
are doing....even if unintended....uncured rock is cheaper because
your LFS hasn't made the investment of keeping it for weeks to do
it themselves....

Mechanical and convential biological filtration, from my research,
are fine if you want a fish only tank....but they will mean that
your nitrates and phosphates will be at a level that can sustain
fish but not inverts....so it is a choice as to what your
priorities are......I want corals, inverts and fish so have opted
for all my "filtration" and "conversions" being done by my live
rock and now live sand (the sand having been populated by the
creatures in my rock)....

I know that you have been asked about whether you have a protein
skimmer or not....from my experience with my little 15 gall Nano I
would not be without one....this yellow water you are talking about
is what I empty into the sink from the cup of my skimmer.....what I
see in the cup of the skimmer is enough to freak me as to what it
would be like if I didn't have my cheap budget protein skimmer
(cost me £18 plus the air pump - £22)....it has to be said every
penny spent is well worth it...and if we got into a larger tank (or
even my small tank) - if you evaluate the cost of your corals
against this one essential piece of kit the cost works out.....the
loss of your frags at between £20 and £40 pounds compared to a more
expensive model still costs out well - let alone the emotional cost
and the frustration....

Gill


Somebody correct me if I am wrong but i believe there is no such
thing as cured rock.
As soon as you remove it from the ocean everything on it and in it
starts to die.
It's is possible to get rock from a LFS that has been marinating in
water
and you can get it home quickly. But still, live rock doesn't come
with all the goodies
that it would have as it was in the ocean.

GET YOURSELF A SKIMMER MAN !!! : )



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

This is only my opinion, but if yu have live rock that yu intend to
have in the tank use it to initiate a cycle. It does the job and does
it well. No need to acc cycle or dead shrimp or live fish, let the
rock do the job. Ammonia and nitrite levels will not be anywhere near
as high as usuing dead shrimp or no fish will be in jeopardy either
like the commonly used Damsels usually are. Your cycle will be just as
good and more than likely better than one that had higher ammonia and
nitrite levels that used dead shrimp, and yur rock will have more life
left on it that will flourish into unique hitch hikers that may not
normally be available through most LFS.....

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:39:34 GMT, "TheRock" wrote:

NOW YOU TELL ME !!!
THANKS A LOT : )

"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
arthlink.net...
Yep that's right it's best to keep as much alive as one can. A lot of
people do a lot of killing in the name of curing.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Tristan wrote on 1/14/2007 10:37 AM:

There is lots of debate on what is cured or cycled rock as different
places use these terms interchangebly. My lfs hewre sells rock that
is fully cured........in other words if its pulled from their tank,
and placed in water, and carried homoe and placed in your tank with
little to no exposure or fooling aorund there would not be enough of
die off to make it noticeable. They sell only fully cured/cycled rock
that is ready to place in the tank (within a reasonabale time frame )
and within a day or two its more than safe to start adding fish.

I have cycled lots of tanks already, and do find that when ammonia and
nitrite levels get too high stuff on the rock and in the rock starts
to die as well. So I try and keep my ammonia and nitrite levels as as
possible (Ammonia no higher than say 1 or 1.5) . It may take a bit
longer but I get much more diverse critters that survive the cycle
times.

The rock the lFS here sells is some nice rock, and lots of goodies
come on it..Its not unusual to find small tiny polyps of yuma or other
shrooms.....as well as sea squirts, sponge and dusters.......brittle
serpent stars etc. I much prefer to take longer in getting a tank cycled
than do it
faster with aditivies like dead shrimp etc or usuing live fish. It
will still cycle, and also keep my ammonia and nitrite levels low. I
do water changes during cycle so levels are not high, and I run a
skimmer most of the times.



On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:09:25 GMT, "TheRock" wrote:

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I just bought a 25gallon aquarium about a week ago and put the
substate
and live rock in it. I haven't put coral and fish in and today I
suddenly found the water turned yellow!

I have pumps (Rio 800) running and using Biological filter calls..
What
do you guys think the problem come from? I changed water (about
60%
change) today but still feel water is yellow. What do you think?
Shall
I do a complete water change?

Thanks!


OK I'm a newbie but want to ask a few questions of you....or
clarify that you are following the same concepts that I am....

The point of Live Rock is that it does your filtration for
you....once it is cured of course and most of the die off has
happened - and this die off is generally down to shipping and the
decay of stuff that died during shipping - cured rock is a good way
to go when starting up unless you are prepared to wait for it to
cure itself - and it sounds pretty much to me that this is what you
are doing....even if unintended....uncured rock is cheaper because
your LFS hasn't made the investment of keeping it for weeks to do
it themselves....

Mechanical and convential biological filtration, from my research,
are fine if you want a fish only tank....but they will mean that
your nitrates and phosphates will be at a level that can sustain
fish but not inverts....so it is a choice as to what your
priorities are......I want corals, inverts and fish so have opted
for all my "filtration" and "conversions" being done by my live
rock and now live sand (the sand having been populated by the
creatures in my rock)....

I know that you have been asked about whether you have a protein
skimmer or not....from my experience with my little 15 gall Nano I
would not be without one....this yellow water you are talking about
is what I empty into the sink from the cup of my skimmer.....what I
see in the cup of the skimmer is enough to freak me as to what it
would be like if I didn't have my cheap budget protein skimmer
(cost me £18 plus the air pump - £22)....it has to be said every
penny spent is well worth it...and if we got into a larger tank (or
even my small tank) - if you evaluate the cost of your corals
against this one essential piece of kit the cost works out.....the
loss of your frags at between £20 and £40 pounds compared to a more
expensive model still costs out well - let alone the emotional cost
and the frustration....

Gill


Somebody correct me if I am wrong but i believe there is no such
thing as cured rock.
As soon as you remove it from the ocean everything on it and in it
starts to die.
It's is possible to get rock from a LFS that has been marinating in
water
and you can get it home quickly. But still, live rock doesn't come
with all the goodies
that it would have as it was in the ocean.

GET YOURSELF A SKIMMER MAN !!! : )



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I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!




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I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!