Levels Getting Worse.....

Before Tristan Roy Hauer destroys your group as he did rec.ponds and the
reef group you can complain here. Include the whole header and mail to:

X-Complaints-To:


"Tristan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:42:00 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:


"Don Freeman" wrote in message
. ..

"Tynk" wrote in message
ps.com...

Actually, they *should* vacuum the gravel during the cycling
period.

I started lurking here about a month ago as I was thinking about
getting
back into keeping tropical fish. I had been a fairly avid hobbyist
about
35 years ago, and am amazed at the advancements in the knowledge
available. I had never even heard of cycling a tank back then, I
had pH
testing, a couple of anti-bacterial and fungal treatments and that's
about
all. At least from what I remember.

I got my first aquarium in the early 1950s. The changes are
unbelievable
over the years. Pick up some Fish magazines and search the web. The
new
knowledge is everywhere.

Then why do you continually give bad advice Carol? Maybe y need to
buy a few magazines and follow your own advice.....but your info sucks
big time that you give. Your totally clueless and ingnorant in what yu
advise others to do.


So it looks like I have quite a bit to learn before getting too
involved.
One thing that would help is a step by step guide on setting up a
new tank
so that all the details (such as the one above regarding vacuuming
the
gravel during the cycling period) are delineated and put in their
proper
perspective within the process.

Keep in mind what works the best for one person and their set up and
conditions, may not for another.

Yes, but your so far out in left fild most times and thats where the
difference lay. Seems odd a person inthe UK can give advice top a
problem a person has and it gets remidied, and that can be applied to
virtually all, yet when you r caught giving erroneous crapout like you
do your comeback is well it works for me. For some reason or other, I
would certainly not want to do anythng you recomemnd on that kind of
thought process, as its bound to be hazzardous to more than it helps.

Is there a consensus in the group as the
most comprehensive, correct, and readable guide (either printed or
web
page) for setting up a new tank geared toward the new hobbyist?

Just because its on th einternet to lots of foks means it has tor be
right. But then look at folks like carol aka Zebulon. She has a
website and she frequents forums, and is always handing out erroneous
info......Hang around the forums and it does not take long to see who
is giving good info and who is full of **** like CArol and a few of
her supporters of plagarism.

BTW, I am very impressed with the quality of posts in this group and
(except for a few notable but very rare occasions) the civilized way
in
which the discussions are presented.

Hang out and learn......... we all are! :-)
Too bad carol your not hanging, like your buddy Ed Alston
contemplated doing in the suicide groups. Now all the tweo of you do
is trash and make problems for any groups you all decide to hang out
in.




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Zëbulon wrote:


I got my first aquarium in the early 1950s. The changes are unbelievable
over the years. Pick up some Fish magazines and search the web. The new
knowledge is everywhere.


This is why I posted the current information about nitrifying bacteria
being sticky and adhering to the surfaces like glue. This *IS* the
current info.
If you take your own advice and pick up the January issue of Tropical
Fish Hobbyist magazine, you will read for yourself how sticky the
nitrifying bacteria are.



Keep in mind what works the best for one person and their set up and
conditions, may not for another.

Yes, that is true. However, new found information that is completely
different than once was thought can only benifit the hobbyist, and
mostly, the fish. Hence the reason for vacuuming during the cycling
period.


Is there a consensus in the group as the
most comprehensive, correct, and readable guide (either printed or web
page) for setting up a new tank geared toward the new hobbyist?

BTW, I am very impressed with the quality of posts in this group and
(except for a few notable but very rare occasions) the civilized way in
which the discussions are presented.

Hang out and learn......... we all are! :-)

That's good advice.
Seriously though, January's issue of TFH. This information about the
bacteria secreting a very sticky substance was only recently found
out...like within the past decade.
I too once thought if you vacuumed during the cycle you'd be removing
the bacteria. I also once thought that adding old tank water to a new
tank transfered some too. It does not, as the bacteria do not float
about in the water.
Some also thought that if you squeeze out a filter pad from an
established tank into a new tank that you would be "seeding" the new
tank. It does not. It only adds gunk.
I realize you've been in the hobby since the 1950's, but this is the
current information.
Science is an amazing subject that never gets dull.

Gill Passman wrote:
Don Freeman wrote:



There is obviously a lot I am unaware of, but I intend to do a lot more
reading and other research before attempting this. So, hopefully, I will be
a lot more informed at the time I start.


I hope that I didn't come across as beating on you because that wasn't
the intention...the fact that you are posting on a group such as rafm
shows that you are indeed all about learning....

I would suggest you go and do some reading on the following sites:-

http://faq.thekrib.com
http://www.netmax.tk
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com

and Carl's website blogs....which I can't find a link for general access
to at the moment but I'm pretty sure he will provide it....

All of these will give you a good starting base....but you WILL have
follow up questions so feel free to ask....

Gill

Thanks gill, I have two; My personal site with my full articles that
are up dated regularly especially as I find new research (including a
link to my answers blog with regular posts) is:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....formation.html

My other is a blog with links to many of my more abbreviated blog
aquarium and pond info, but this one has more outside directory links
and links to other info sites such as NetMax, The Krib, and Cichlid
Research:
http://aquarium-info.blogspot.com/

Carl

"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Zëbulon wrote:


I got my first aquarium in the early 1950s. The changes are unbelievable
over the years. Pick up some Fish magazines and search the web. The new
knowledge is everywhere.


This is why I posted the current information about nitrifying bacteria
being sticky and adhering to the surfaces like glue. This *IS* the
current info.

No one said it wasn't. ;-)

If you take your own advice and pick up the January issue of Tropical
Fish Hobbyist magazine, you will read for yourself how sticky the
nitrifying bacteria are.

I'm retired and my husband is semi-retired. If that magazine had something
other than adds, salt water articles and a very few fresh water articles I
would pay the price for it. Otherwise it can stay on the shelf at the pet
store. ;-) I've dropped all the Fish magazines due to the price and fact
they all seem to cater to the sw crowd. It was to where the few fresh water
articles seemed to cover the same topics over and over. But someone new or
getting back into the hobby after may years would probably find them
helpful.

Keep in mind what works the best for one person and their set up and
conditions, may not for another.

Yes, that is true. However, new found information that is completely
different than once was thought can only benifit the hobbyist, and
mostly, the fish. Hence the reason for vacuuming during the cycling
period.


Is there a consensus in the group as the
most comprehensive, correct, and readable guide (either printed or web
page) for setting up a new tank geared toward the new hobbyist?

BTW, I am very impressed with the quality of posts in this group and
(except for a few notable but very rare occasions) the civilized way in
which the discussions are presented.

Hang out and learn......... we all are! :-)

That's good advice.
Seriously though, January's issue of TFH. This information about the
bacteria secreting a very sticky substance was only recently found
out...like within the past decade.

Perhaps I was told that because if you remove the small amount of fish feces
on the gravel there's nothing for the bacteria to feed on that establishes
the cycle in the tank. I don't know... but it does work for me. YMMV.
But then I do a lot of partial water changes in a new setup until the
ammonia and nitrites are zero. Most of the time the seeded filter works and
there is no cycle to speak of. For some odd reason that sometimes fails
completely. :-(

I too once thought if you vacuumed during the cycle you'd be removing
the bacteria. I also once thought that adding old tank water to a new
tank transfered some too. It does not, as the bacteria do not float
about in the water.

That seems to be well known now for awhile.

Some also thought that if you squeeze out a filter pad from an
established tank into a new tank that you would be "seeding" the new
tank. It does not. It only adds gunk.
I realize you've been in the hobby since the 1950's, but this is the
current information.
Science is an amazing subject that never gets dull.

This is very true.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Zëbulon wrote:
"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Zëbulon wrote:


I got my first aquarium in the early 1950s. The changes are unbelievable
over the years. Pick up some Fish magazines and search the web. The new
knowledge is everywhere.


This is why I posted the current information about nitrifying bacteria
being sticky and adhering to the surfaces like glue. This *IS* the
current info.

No one said it wasn't. ;-)


This is why I posted about it adhering to the surfaces like glue:
Your comment made it seem that you thought this way.....

From: Zëbulon - view profile
Date: Wed, Jan 17 2007 11:32 am
Email: Zëbulon
Groups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Rating: (1 user)
show options
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author



"JB" wrote in message


oups.com...


- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I tried the suggestions on vacuuming my gravel for waste, cutting back
on my feeding to now once every other day and not very much... I've
completed two 25% water changes, and added AmQuel to try and Neutralize
the Nitrates and Nitrites..

So far I have the following...


Nitrate = 40ppm


Nitrite = 5.0ppm


Hardness = 150ppm (up from 75ppm from before)


Alkalinity = 0 (yes Zero.. It was around 40ppm Just yesterday)


PH = 6.8 (down from 7.2)


Now keeping in mind I did a 100% Water change last Tuesday 9th, and
have three 2" sword tail fish & about 14 or so fry in a net and with
the 100% change I cleaned all Decor & Gravel well, got rid of algae,
etc.. I don't know what I'm missing or can do to fix my levels..


My fish are just kinda "hanging around" most of the time... Sorry if
this seems like a identical repost, but it's more of an update and I
don't know what to do...



=============================
For now keep doing partial water changes until the cycle finishes.
Don't
disturb the gravel or filter material as the good bacteria are tying to
hang
on and multiply.


The "Don't disturb the gravel or filter material as the good bacteria
are trying to hang on"....

Same with the filter media. It *Should* be rinsed out in old tank water
during a cycling period for the same reasons.
If you are going to cycle a tank with fish, the water, gravel and
filters need to be kept very clean.
It has nothing to do with the whole "what works for you may not work
for me" kind of thing.
This doesn't apply to this situation. It's not just a different way of
doing things.
Current science has discovered the old way just isn't what it was
thought to be.
Not vacuuming isn't a good thing during a cycling period.

Oh look Ed Alston the suicide wacko has joined the group........Did
you gather up any more davron and other illegal drugs Ed. You should
have done like they suggested in the suicide group and thats use a
gun and end your miseable life.....Ed Alston who wants to take the one
way bus ride buts too cheap to buy what he needs......duh!

.....On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:28:34 -0600, "-|-=[LÈGIÖoN]=-|-"
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:36:28 -0600, Tristan
wrote:

Tristan Royl........SHUT THE HELL UP PYSYCHO .......... you clueless
twit!Better yet do us a favor and FOAD!



Carol........SHUT THE HELL UP you clueless jerk!


On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:38:02 -0600, Zëbulon
wrote:


"Tynk" wrote in message
ooglegroups.com...

Zëbulon wrote:

=============================
For now keep doing partial water changes until the cycle finishes. Don't
disturb the gravel or filter material as the good bacteria are tying to
hang
on and multiply. Keep feeding sparingly and keep us posted.
--
ZB....

Actually, they *should* vacuum the gravel during the cycling period.

That's not what I was told to do unless there was decomposing food on it.
And that advice has always worked for me. :-)

The nitrifying bacteria secrete a glue like substance and adhere to
every surface. They are NOT going anywhere. Vacuuming gravel isn't
going to budge them.

Then vacuum it. I'll do as I've always done since it works so well for me.

It would do more harm to the health of the tank *not* to vacuum during
a cycle.

True, if there is uneaten food or decaying plants lying on it. It's
whatever works for YOU. What works BEST for me is to feed lightly and do
enough partial water changes to keep the the ammonia/nitrites at not lethal
levels until the cycle is finished.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Sponsored in part by:
The House of Santana©
The Santana Institute of Usenet Anonymity®
and Sock Puppetry.
Supporters of Your Local Newsgroups (SLN, Ltd.)
The A. L. Santana Plonk Foundation©

and viewers like you.

-= Have Gun, Will Travel. =-



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Zëbulon wrote:
"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Zëbulon wrote:


I got my first aquarium in the early 1950s. The changes are unbelievable
over the years. Pick up some Fish magazines and search the web. The new
knowledge is everywhere.


This is why I posted the current information about nitrifying bacteria
being sticky and adhering to the surfaces like glue. This *IS* the
current info.

No one said it wasn't. ;-)


This is why I posted about it adhering to the surfaces like glue:
Your comment made it seem that you thought this way.....

From: Zëbulon - view profile
Date: Wed, Jan 17 2007 11:32 am
Email: Zëbulon
Groups: rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Rating: (1 user)
show options
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author



"JB" wrote in message


oups.com...


- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I tried the suggestions on vacuuming my gravel for waste, cutting back
on my feeding to now once every other day and not very much... I've
completed two 25% water changes, and added AmQuel to try and Neutralize
the Nitrates and Nitrites..

So far I have the following...


Nitrate = 40ppm


Nitrite = 5.0ppm


Hardness = 150ppm (up from 75ppm from before)


Alkalinity = 0 (yes Zero.. It was around 40ppm Just yesterday)


PH = 6.8 (down from 7.2)


Now keeping in mind I did a 100% Water change last Tuesday 9th, and
have three 2" sword tail fish & about 14 or so fry in a net and with
the 100% change I cleaned all Decor & Gravel well, got rid of algae,
etc.. I don't know what I'm missing or can do to fix my levels..


My fish are just kinda "hanging around" most of the time... Sorry if
this seems like a identical repost, but it's more of an update and I
don't know what to do...



=============================
For now keep doing partial water changes until the cycle finishes.
Don't
disturb the gravel or filter material as the good bacteria are tying to
hang
on and multiply.


The "Don't disturb the gravel or filter material as the good bacteria
are trying to hang on"....

I would think they were - wouldn't you? What are you vacuuming out of clean
gravel?


Same with the filter media. It *Should* be rinsed out in old tank water
during a cycling period for the same reasons.

And what exactly are you rinsing out of the filter material if the tank is a
new setup with the fish eating very little?

If you are going to cycle a tank with fish, the water, gravel and
filters need to be kept very clean.

I would think a new tank would have CLEAN gravel and filter material?!?!?!
What are you rinsing and vacuuming out in a new setup with a few lightly fed
fish?

It has nothing to do with the whole "what works for you may not work
for me" kind of thing.

Sure it does! It DOES work for me and has for years. Just because it
doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for me or someone else.

This doesn't apply to this situation. It's not just a different way of
doing things.

Then you do what works for YOU and I'll do what works best for ME.

Current science has discovered the old way just isn't what it was
thought to be.
Not vacuuming isn't a good thing during a cycling period.

If the fish are being well fed and there's food and feces on the bottom I
agree.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

CAROL....STFU and let those that know what the hell they are talking
about tell the folks with questiions what their answers are. You do
nothing but ad lib and confuse the issues, and create
turmoil.........go out in the street and play.

You contribue nothing to the awuaria groups and certainly are a
detractant in the human race as well.




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Too bad your not adept at constructing your own posts dumbass. Its
way to easy to forge and rearange what others state ....Typical for
carol and her typical sock puppets or Ed Alston the suicide freak!

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 23:09:16 -0600, "Roberta Rotidia"
wrote:

Roy Tristan........SHUT THE HELL UP you clueless jerkoff troll! No
one cares about your flame war with disabled veterans and old ladies. take
it to email already.......... you go from group to group destroying them
with your toxic bull**** and negative vibes.

Too bad Roy Tristan Hauer your not hanging, like your buddy Jabbers Santana
contemplated doing in the suicide groups elling the depressed to kill
themselves. Now all the tweo of you do
is trash and make problems for any groups you all decide to hang out
in.

"Tristan" wrote in message
m...
YOU bwil stil have a indicatin of ammonia, nitrate and nitrite even
when yu use Amquel. Its still there and will show on a test, but its
locked up and rendered safe........it can take quite a few water
changes to eliminate that indication your getting., I would lay off
adding amny more Amquell.....Just the va of gravel, and really by now
there should not be anything left to gravel......but it wil not hurt,
doing it and as a means of pulling out water to make room for a water
change addition. Continue laying off feed.....Those fish are not gong
to starve.........

Why is it you do not have an ammonia test kit?

Just work at getting the nitrate and nitrite levels and ammonia whewre
they need to be. None of the other readings are gona do in the fish
in a hurry and can be worked on after yu get this tank up and cycled
right. Its never a good idea to make too many changes all at once and
what your doing now is fine.......


On 17 Jan 2007 07:57:21 -0800, "JB" wrote:

I tried the suggestions on vacuuming my gravel for waste, cutting back
on my feeding to now once every other day and not very much... I've
completed two 25% water changes, and added AmQuel to try and
Neutralize
the Nitrates and Nitrites..

So far I have the following...

Nitrate = 40ppm

Nitrite = 5.0ppm

Hardness = 150ppm (up from 75ppm from before)

Alkalinity = 0 (yes Zero.. It was around 40ppm Just yesterday)

PH = 6.8 (down from 7.2)

Now keeping in mind I did a 100% Water change last Tuesday 9th, and
have three 2" sword tail fish & about 14 or so fry in a net and with
the 100% change I cleaned all Decor & Gravel well, got rid of algae,
etc.. I don't know what I'm missing or can do to fix my levels..

My fish are just kinda "hanging around" most of the time... Sorry if
this seems like a identical repost, but it's more of an update and I
don't know what to do...



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

TROLL ALERT!

"Tristan" wrote in message
...
CAROL....STFU and let those that know what the hell they are talking
about tell the folks with questiions what their answers are. You do
nothing but ad lib and confuse the issues, and create
turmoil.........go out in the street and play.

You contribue nothing to the awuaria groups and certainly are a
detractant in the human race as well.




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!