Need Recommendations for protein skimmer, powerheads and heater

Hello. I've always wanted a salt water tank, and just started
research on how to properly set up the tank, live rocks, etc. Very
overwhelmed with what's involved, and also the initial startup cost.
I figured about $1k, but never thought it would be more like $2k or
more without even adding the fish. I had nix'ed the idea yesterday,
but then thought, hey....why not start by researching and buying a
piece at a time, until I have what I need to set it up. I want to do
it right the first time. I found a couple books I'm going to start
with, and I'd like to inventory everything I need, and research what
brands/models I want.

What would you recommend for the following based on a 55 gallon tank ?
(brand and model/size)

Protein Skimmer

Power Heads

Heater

Do you have a good online resource for acrylic tanks, and the above
equipment?

If I go with live rocks and live sand, is the Protein Skimmer and
Power Heads adequate, or do I also need a mechanical filter?

Do you feel that 2lbs of live rock per gallon is necessary? I've
heard numbers between 1lb and 2lbs, so figured right in the middle
might be good.

Does the live rock decrease the amount of fish you can have in your
tank? If a inch of fish requires 3 gallons of water, but I have
80-110 lbs of live rock in a 55 gallon tank, do I need to treat it as
if it were only a 30 or 40 gallon tank ?

How close to the wall can the tank be, to allow room for the protein
skimmer/power heads ? (will make a difference on where I can fit the
tank and what size/shape I get).

Thanks for your help!
Pam

pm3009 wrote:
Hello. I've always wanted a salt water tank, and just started
research on how to properly set up the tank, live rocks, etc. Very
overwhelmed with what's involved, and also the initial startup cost.
I figured about $1k, but never thought it would be more like $2k or
more without even adding the fish.

I'd recommend watching ebay or craig's list and see if you can find a
tank that somebody wants to unload. That's the cheapest way in although
you'll probably find something that hasn't been well taken care of.
That's alright, but it does take a little work to get things going again.

--Kurt

pm3009 wrote:

What would you recommend for the following based on a 55 gallon tank ?

First off, most people find it difficult to stack enough live rock in a 55
gallon tank. They aren't wide enough from front to back to leave much sand bed
after the rock is in. YMMV.

Protein Skimmer

I have no recommendation here.

Power Heads

Hagen heads are very good quality, but I just replaced all of mine with a Tunze
6060 circulation pump, and I've very pleased. The circulation might be a bit
much for a 55, though. I have a 125, and I sometimes wish I had bought a larger
Tunze. Advantages to the Tunze are that it uses less power and heats the tank up
less than power heads for the same water flow. For only your left arm, you can
even buy a housing for the thing that looks like a chunk of rock.

Heater

I've had Tronic heaters for over 10 years now and like them very well. They're
submersible and easy to adjust. You want two of the 100 watt units for a 55. Two
heaters will give you redundancy if one fails, it's impossible for one to boil
your fish if it goes haywire, and it's easier to control the tank temperature
with two.

Do you have a good online resource for acrylic tanks, and the above
equipment?

Here are a couple ....
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/Shop.cfm?N=2004
http://www.marinedepot.com/homepage.asp

Aquariums are usually better bought locally, though. Shipping is a pain.


If I go with live rocks and live sand, is the Protein Skimmer and
Power Heads adequate, or do I also need a mechanical filter?

You don't need a mechanical filter.

Do you feel that 2lbs of live rock per gallon is necessary? I've
heard numbers between 1lb and 2lbs, so figured right in the middle
might be good.

I've got a little over 1lb/gallon. I like the effect so far, but it doesn't seem
to be handling the nitrates.

Does the live rock decrease the amount of fish you can have in your
tank? If a inch of fish requires 3 gallons of water, but I have
80-110 lbs of live rock in a 55 gallon tank, do I need to treat it as
if it were only a 30 or 40 gallon tank ?

Yep, but you might consider getting a sump or setting up a refugium. Your sand
bed can go in there, and it increases the gallonage (and capacity) of your
system. Your skimmer can also go in there. One of your heaters can also go in
there (I wouldn't put both in the sump myself). All this hides under the stand.

How close to the wall can the tank be, to allow room for the protein
skimmer/power heads ? (will make a difference on where I can fit the
tank and what size/shape I get).

I find that 6" is about right.

George Patterson
No one ever says "It's only a game." when his team is winning.

A great protein skimmer is the
AquaC Remora. It`s $164.00. Ive got one on my 65 gallon. Along with 1.25 pds
of rock per gallon, its been doing great.

I got my rock on eBay at only $2.19 a pound---a fraction of what it costs
everywhere else. This was my big "find"---check it out.
There are more rock dealers on eBay with low prices.

Skimmer url

http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...idproduct=ACRM

Rock url

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=150081673993

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:sOzvh.7529$SE6.6121@trnddc03...
pm3009 wrote:

What would you recommend for the following based on a 55 gallon tank ?

First off, most people find it difficult to stack enough live rock in a 55
gallon tank. They aren't wide enough from front to back to leave much sand
bed after the rock is in. YMMV.

Protein Skimmer

I have no recommendation here.

Power Heads

Hagen heads are very good quality, but I just replaced all of mine with a
Tunze 6060 circulation pump, and I've very pleased. The circulation might
be a bit much for a 55, though. I have a 125, and I sometimes wish I had
bought a larger Tunze. Advantages to the Tunze are that it uses less power
and heats the tank up less than power heads for the same water flow. For
only your left arm, you can even buy a housing for the thing that looks
like a chunk of rock.

Heater

I've had Tronic heaters for over 10 years now and like them very well.
They're submersible and easy to adjust. You want two of the 100 watt units
for a 55. Two heaters will give you redundancy if one fails, it's
impossible for one to boil your fish if it goes haywire, and it's easier
to control the tank temperature with two.

Do you have a good online resource for acrylic tanks, and the above
equipment?

Here are a couple ....
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/Shop.cfm?N=2004
http://www.marinedepot.com/homepage.asp

Aquariums are usually better bought locally, though. Shipping is a pain.


If I go with live rocks and live sand, is the Protein Skimmer and Power
Heads adequate, or do I also need a mechanical filter?

You don't need a mechanical filter.

Do you feel that 2lbs of live rock per gallon is necessary? I've heard
numbers between 1lb and 2lbs, so figured right in the middle might be
good.

I've got a little over 1lb/gallon. I like the effect so far, but it
doesn't seem to be handling the nitrates.

Does the live rock decrease the amount of fish you can have in your tank?
If a inch of fish requires 3 gallons of water, but I have 80-110 lbs of
live rock in a 55 gallon tank, do I need to treat it as if it were only a
30 or 40 gallon tank ?

Yep, but you might consider getting a sump or setting up a refugium. Your
sand bed can go in there, and it increases the gallonage (and capacity) of
your system. Your skimmer can also go in there. One of your heaters can
also go in there (I wouldn't put both in the sump myself). All this hides
under the stand.

How close to the wall can the tank be, to allow room for the protein
skimmer/power heads ? (will make a difference on where I can fit the
tank and what size/shape I get).

I find that 6" is about right.

George Patterson
No one ever says "It's only a game." when his team is winning.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:27:04 GMT, George Patterson
wrote:

pm3009 wrote:

What would you recommend for the following based on a 55 gallon tank ?

55 gal tanks are probably one of the most commonly used tanks today
.....but that does not say its a proper or good tank to use.
Personally I hate a 55 gal.....Its dimensions are just wrong IMHO.
Makes a fine QT/Hospital tank however.

First off, most people find it difficult to stack enough live rock in a 55
gallon tank. They aren't wide enough from front to back to leave much sand bed
after the rock is in. YMMV.

Absolutely true.

Protein Skimmer

Coralife Super Skimmers (Needlewheel) are probably one of the best and
yet affordable skimmers out there that actually works. Its got the
best bang for the buck. Stay away from Red Sea Prisms, Sea Clones,
and Berlins and JEBO's. While 99% of anything related to a SW setup
costs decent money, or you can pretty well bank on it being junk and
not working , its not the case with the coralife super skimmers.

I have no recommendation here.

Power Heads

Maxi Jet's are a very good powerhead, as is Tunze........RIO quality
is good one time and bad the next, but if yu find a RIO that works and
lasts odds are it will be with yu for ever....my choice and probably
the most commonly used powerheads are Maxi Jets or even their Mini or
MIcro Jets......Hagen Aqua Clears are alright as well

Hagen heads are very good quality, but I just replaced all of mine with a Tunze
6060 circulation pump, and I've very pleased. The circulation might be a bit
much for a 55, though. I have a 125, and I sometimes wish I had bought a larger
Tunze. Advantages to the Tunze are that it uses less power and heats the tank up
less than power heads for the same water flow. For only your left arm, you can
even buy a housing for the thing that looks like a chunk of rock.

Heater

EBO brand is probably the most comon ly used and recomended heaters.
Been more or less a European standard for many years. Either
Ebo-Jager, or EBO-Eheim......or just plain EBO.they are all the same
and of super quality.

I've had Tronic heaters for over 10 years now and like them very well. They're
submersible and easy to adjust. You want two of the 100 watt units for a 55. Two
heaters will give you redundancy if one fails, it's impossible for one to boil
your fish if it goes haywire, and it's easier to control the tank temperature
with two.

Do you have a good online resource for acrylic tanks, and the above
equipment?

Glass Cages.com is noted for glass tanks but I hear they also make
acrylic ones as well......

Here are a couple ....
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/Shop.cfm?N=2004
http://www.marinedepot.com/homepage.asp

Aquariums are usually better bought locally, though. Shipping is a pain.


If I go with live rocks and live sand, is the Protein Skimmer and
Power Heads adequate, or do I also need a mechanical filter?

You don't need a mechanical filter.

Its stil nice to have a mechanical if its nothing but a hob type such
as an Aqua Clear......which can also be run without media of anytime
and used for additonal current flow without adding any additional heat
from submerged powerhead motor to the tank.

Do you feel that 2lbs of live rock per gallon is necessary? I've
heard numbers between 1lb and 2lbs, so figured right in the middle
might be good.
1.5 shoud be fine, if you do not go overboard with fish load......I go
with 1.5 in all my setups.

I've got a little over 1lb/gallon. I like the effect so far, but it doesn't seem
to be handling the nitrates.

Does the live rock decrease the amount of fish you can have in your
tank? If a inch of fish requires 3 gallons of water, but I have
80-110 lbs of live rock in a 55 gallon tank, do I need to treat it as
if it were only a 30 or 40 gallon tank ?

I have seen that debated on lots of forums. I always treat the tank
for its capacity period.......just like it did not have any live rock
i it. I kow it takes up water capacity, but I have not had any bad
results form doing so yet.

Yep, but you might consider getting a sump or setting up a refugium. Your sand
bed can go in there, and it increases the gallonage (and capacity) of your
system. Your skimmer can also go in there. One of your heaters can also go in
there (I wouldn't put both in the sump myself). All this hides under the stand.

Sumps / fuges are always a nice item to have on any sized tank...

How close to the wall can the tank be, to allow room for the protein
skimmer/power heads ? (will make a difference on where I can fit the
tank and what size/shape I get).

I find that 6" is about right.

Depends on how much is needed for applicable skimmer plus a bit of
room for clearance.

George Patterson
No one ever says "It's only a game." when his team is winning.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Tristan wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:27:04 GMT, George Patterson
wrote:

pm3009 wrote:

What would you recommend for the following based on a 55 gallon tank ?

55 gal tanks are probably one of the most commonly used tanks today
....but that does not say its a proper or good tank to use.
Personally I hate a 55 gal.....Its dimensions are just wrong IMHO.
Makes a fine QT/Hospital tank however.

First off, most people find it difficult to stack enough live rock in a 55
gallon tank. They aren't wide enough from front to back to leave much sand bed
after the rock is in. YMMV.

Absolutely true.

Indeed indeed. If you want something in a 48" length, i'd be looking at
75 gals.


Protein Skimmer

Coralife Super Skimmers (Needlewheel) are probably one of the best and
yet affordable skimmers out there that actually works. Its got the
best bang for the buck. Stay away from Red Sea Prisms, Sea Clones,
and Berlins and JEBO's. While 99% of anything related to a SW setup
costs decent money, or you can pretty well bank on it being junk and
not working , its not the case with the coralife super skimmers.

I happen to be a fan of Aqua C Remora's for small skimmers. Have a
remora nano on my 10 gal, and it works quite well. Lots of very very dry
foam.

I agree with your dislike of seaclones - I have a seaclone 100 on my 20
gal, and I constantly have to adjust the airflow to keep it producing
foam. My 10 gal has less stable water conditions, yet the aqua C just
keeps on foaming (it does stop when there is a major change, but it
always starts producing agian within an hour or so - not the case with
the seaclone) - also, the seaclone is more prone to produce weak, wet foam.

I have heard good things about the coralife needle wheel skimmers, and
you sure can't beat the price. But I don't believe these will do as well
as an aqua C.



I have no recommendation here.

Power Heads

Maxi Jet's

Agreed. And reasonably priced. Hagen's are nice, too.

are a very good powerhead, as is Tunze

Which are TOP of the line, IMO, but VERY expensive.

........RIO quality
is good one time and bad the next,

You must have bought my quota of the "good" ones - the ones I have had
all jammed up and refused to start within a month.

but if yu find a RIO that works and
lasts odds are it will be with yu for ever

Yeah... I suppose the key word there is "if"

.....my choice and probably
the most commonly used powerheads are Maxi Jets or even their Mini or
MIcro Jets......Hagen Aqua Clears are alright as well

No one has mentioned MAG at all yet. I don't use them myself, but they
have a VERY good reputation from what I have heard.



Hagen heads are very good quality, but I just replaced all of mine with a Tunze
6060 circulation pump, and I've very pleased. The circulation might be a bit
much for a 55, though. I have a 125, and I sometimes wish I had bought a larger
Tunze. Advantages to the Tunze are that it uses less power and heats the tank up
less than power heads for the same water flow. For only your left arm, you can
even buy a housing for the thing that looks like a chunk of rock.

Heater

EBO brand is probably the most comon ly used and recomended heaters.
Been more or less a European standard for many years. Either
Ebo-Jager, or EBO-Eheim......or just plain EBO.they are all the same
and of super quality.

I've had Tronic heaters for over 10 years now and like them very well. They're
submersible and easy to adjust. You want two of the 100 watt units for a 55. Two
heaters will give you redundancy if one fails, it's impossible for one to boil
your fish if it goes haywire, and it's easier to control the tank temperature
with two.

I like the tronics, myself.


Do you have a good online resource for acrylic tanks, and the above
equipment?

Glass Cages.com is noted for glass tanks but I hear they also make
acrylic ones as well......

Here are a couple ....
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/Shop.cfm?N=2004
http://www.marinedepot.com/homepage.asp

Aquariums are usually better bought locally, though. Shipping is a pain.

Indeed. And shipping is expensive.



If I go with live rocks and live sand, is the Protein Skimmer and
Power Heads adequate, or do I also need a mechanical filter?

You don't need a mechanical filter.

Its stil nice to have a mechanical

To trap deritus and watch your nitrates soar?

if its nothing but a hob type such
as an Aqua Clear......which can also be run without media

Which is precisely what I do - er - almost. I have some rubble rock
loosely piled into my aquaclear. Not enough to do much for mechanical
filtration, but enough to help the biological.

of anytime
and used for additonal current flow without adding any additional heat
from submerged powerhead motor to the tank.

?!? These are pumped via a powerhead that is flipped upside down and
stuck on the bottom of the box. You do get some air cooling that way,
but it won't be THAT much cooler that putting the same powerhead
directly in your tank.


Do you feel that 2lbs of live rock per gallon is necessary? I've
heard numbers between 1lb and 2lbs, so figured right in the middle
might be good.
1.5 shoud be fine, if you do not go overboard with fish load......I go
with 1.5 in all my setups.

I've got a little over 1lb/gallon. I like the effect so far, but it doesn't seem
to be handling the nitrates.

Pounds is misleading - what is important is surface area. You can get
away with less poundage if you use more porous rock, which will be
lighter and have a greater surface area (due to the pores)


Does the live rock decrease the amount of fish you can have in your
tank? If a inch of fish requires 3 gallons of water, but I have
80-110 lbs of live rock in a 55 gallon tank, do I need to treat it as
if it were only a 30 or 40 gallon tank ?

I have seen that debated on lots of forums. I always treat the tank
for its capacity period.......just like it did not have any live rock
i it. I kow it takes up water capacity, but I have not had any bad
results form doing so yet.

Yep, but you might consider getting a sump or setting up a refugium. Your sand
bed can go in there, and it increases the gallonage (and capacity) of your
system. Your skimmer can also go in there. One of your heaters can also go in
there (I wouldn't put both in the sump myself). All this hides under the stand.

Sumps / fuges are always a nice item to have on any sized tank...

Indeed.


How close to the wall can the tank be, to allow room for the protein
skimmer/power heads ? (will make a difference on where I can fit the
tank and what size/shape I get).

I find that 6" is about right.

Depends on how much is needed for applicable skimmer plus a bit of
room for clearance.

Yes. Once you know what gear you plan on gettng, look up the dimensions
(manufacturers web sites usually list these), figure out how much it's
gonna stick out, then add an inch or two for wiggle room.


George Patterson
No one ever says "It's only a game." when his team is winning.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:28:05 -0500, Add Homonym
wrote:

snip

I have heard good things about the coralife needle wheel skimmers, and
you sure can't beat the price. But I don't believe these will do as well
as an aqua C.
I wish there wa a really fair way to evaluate skimmers against each
other. Thing is its impossible to do unless both skimmers are in the
same tank, so what one person gets with one brand is quite variable
over what another may be obtaining.

When you r getting a collecitn cup of dark green black brown nasty
skim every day from skimmer "A". and also a cup of nasty junk from
skimmer "B" how is it possible to discern which one is better than
the other....BOth remove suitable amounts of nasty stuff....so it
really is hard to tell, which is really better A or B. but there is
little doubt if Skimmer C or make that Skimmer Sea Clone or Prism is
among those tested......I'll give sea Clones the benefit of the doubt,
they do work but reqwuire too much constant fiddliing with them to
consider them a set and forget type item as they wil bite you if you
try that with a sea clone.

I have had much better results with Lee's Counter-current skimmers
than I have with sea clones. Probably the best small skimmer
especially for use on a 10 gal is a Sanders Picollo skimmer. I have a
couple of them and they just work so good, and are so small. Hard to
find in ther USA, but are quite common in Europe.


Power Heads

Maxi Jet's

Agreed. And reasonably priced. Hagen's are nice, too.

are a very good powerhead, as is Tunze

Which are TOP of the line, IMO, but VERY expensive.

........RIO quality
is good one time and bad the next,

You must have bought my quota of the "good" ones - the ones I have had
all jammed up and refused to start within a month.

but if yu find a RIO that works and
lasts odds are it will be with yu for ever

Yeah... I suppose the key word there is "if"

Yes, that little word "IF" means a lot with a RIO. If it lasts 2 or so
months, odds are it will last forever......On those that do not want
to start back up what are they doing? Are they just sort of setting
there vibrating, but if yu bump em hard they run? If so, pull out
impeller. HOld magnet in one hand and grasp impeller blade inthe other
and wiggle it back and forth while pulling the blade off the stub
shaft of magnet. The impeller should snap off the stub shaft. What
happens is a bit of sand or grit gets in the "clutch" (factory has a
name for this back and forth play which has something to do with
enabling torque, but I forget the term they call it) and it prevents
motor from being able to start up against the pressure of water on the
impeller blades, in relation to where the magnetic fields are in
conjunction to the mag in the armature. Since these smallmotors can
run CW or CCW, this small amount of back and forth play allows them
to bump or start vibrating, and gives it a bit of help in starting up
against the water weight. You wil find this true of lits of the
smallhob and other powerheads as well. Hydor brand (Italy) are very
bad at getting stuck like this.



No one has mentioned MAG at all yet. I don't use them myself, but they
have a VERY good reputation from what I have heard.

When you say MAG is that as in MAG drive pumps (Pondmaster or DAnner
MAg drive pumps? I never seen a MAG brang powerhead, but a MAG pump is
good quality. OPnly diference in MAG and Danner POnd mAsters is the
length of the power cords.....same pump same specs...oh, the MAG
usually costs more since its sold in LFS for marine tanks.........Buy
em on line at discount pond suppliers for best prices, and cut that
long 18 or 20 foot powercord to suit an aquarium setup.





To trap deritus and watch your nitrates soar?


Yes, but the idea is not to leave any media in them longer than it
takes to remove coarse junk when the need arises, ot a plsace to put a
bag of chemi pure or purigen etc. I run em as a mini fiuge on lots of
tanks, but do not use any media in them unless I have a need to and
then its removed, long before its going to turn into a nitrate
factory.

?!? These are pumped via a powerhead that is flipped upside down and
stuck on the bottom of the box. You do get some air cooling that way,
but it won't be THAT much cooler that putting the same powerhead
directly in your tank.

I may have to try that with a powerhead I have. I have a spare MAXIJET
400 looking for a use....


Pounds is misleading - what is important is surface area. You can get
away with less poundage if you use more porous rock, which will be
lighter and have a greater surface area (due to the pores)


This is so true. LIve rock from different regions have deifferent
density. The lr my wife just pickedup is dense. Two pieces about the
sizes of 2 bricks weighted close to 10#. I have a chunk about 4 times
that size that barely goes over 8 pounds...LIghter is better which
goes in conjunction with porosity which relates to more surface area
internaly and externally. It would not be a problem adding 20# of
that high density rock to a small nano cube, but you would never fit
that same amount of less dense rock in that same cube. I have 16
pounds of rock in the cube right now, and thats about as much as is
gonna fit. I feel its perfectly fine even though its under the normal
1.5# per gal concept. Cube probbaly has close to 2.5# of rubble in the
back compartments though so that also helps, along with chaeto.

FIGI or Tonga or MArshall Islands is probbaly th eebst rock, as far as
density etc goes......Haitian and Caribean rock is much denser
overall. Still there is nothing wrong with it, but it may take more to
do what less will do of the other rock from the South Pacific areas.




-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

I think it all depends on who sells it. I have heard it both ways
myself. Since I have not had an opportunity to see it harvested and
track it to the lfs and weight it, I just go by feel and size and gut
feeling......I know one time many many years ago we pulled liverock
from the caribean islands on a dive trip, long before it was illegal
or inappropriate to do so, and that rock had more of a crystaline
surface and when broken, it would have lots of smooth slick surfaces.
It was almost as if the rock was comprised of quartz instead of
calcium based products.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:29:08 GMT, George Patterson
wrote:

Tristan wrote:

FIGI or Tonga or MArshall Islands is probbaly th eebst rock, as far as
density etc goes......Haitian and Caribean rock is much denser
overall.

Interesting. When I was shopping for live rock a while back, one site that was
selling Caribbean rock claimed that it was one of the *least* dense varieties.

In any case, I wound up buying something called "Tonga Deep."

George Patterson
No one ever says "It's only a game." when his team is winning.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Tristan wrote:

FIGI or Tonga or MArshall Islands is probbaly th eebst rock, as far as
density etc goes......Haitian and Caribean rock is much denser
overall.

Interesting. When I was shopping for live rock a while back, one site that was
selling Caribbean rock claimed that it was one of the *least* dense varieties.

In any case, I wound up buying something called "Tonga Deep."

George Patterson
No one ever says "It's only a game." when his team is winning.

Personally, I watch what is going into the skimmer cup at my LFS on
their live rock curing tank.....and yes, I do go there a lot.....when it
looks a bit more tasteful then I guess the worst is over.....might not
be scientific but maybe a good way of doing it....

Gill