What would be the lowest water temperature survivable by either Koior Goldfish?

I'm actually leaning towards the planned pond being occupied by
Shubunkins/Comets - the reasoning behind this being, that for now, I'm
not convinced that I would be able to build a large enough pond to house
koi.

Living in an area where we can get heavy frosts I need to carefully
consider temperature drops in the winter (although not to the extent of
those in even colder climates) - this winter has actually been very mild
but I can't count on this. Obviously the pond needs to be dug to a depth
below the frost line to prevent the whole thing from freezing solid.
From recent observations of the reservoir for my water feature coupled
with the depth of my old pond and how far that iced up I'm pretty sure
that I can get the depth to avoid a total freeze up.....but I am now
curious how low the temperature can drop at the bottom of the pond
without it adversely affecting the fish...

TIA
Gill

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
I'm actually leaning towards the planned pond being occupied by
Shubunkins/Comets - the reasoning behind this being, that for now, I'm not
convinced that I would be able to build a large enough pond to house koi.

Living in an area where we can get heavy frosts I need to carefully
consider temperature drops in the winter (although not to the extent of
those in even colder climates) - this winter has actually been very mild
but I can't count on this. Obviously the pond needs to be dug to a depth
below the frost line to prevent the whole thing from freezing solid. From
recent observations of the reservoir for my water feature coupled with the
depth of my old pond and how far that iced up I'm pretty sure that I can
get the depth to avoid a total freeze up.....but I am now curious how low
the temperature can drop at the bottom of the pond without it adversely
affecting the fish...
=============================
One winter the bottom of my pond hit 38F. All fish survived. Several frogs
did not. IN MY EXPERIENCE goldfish are more tolerant of cold than koi.
They remain active longer in the fall.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:25:39 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

I'm actually leaning towards the planned pond being occupied by
Shubunkins/Comets - the reasoning behind this being, that for now, I'm
not convinced that I would be able to build a large enough pond to house
koi.

Well there are a lot of pretty shubunkins and goldfish to choose from now
days. Plus I have less stress over my goldfish than I do with my koi.

Living in an area where we can get heavy frosts I need to carefully
consider temperature drops in the winter (although not to the extent of
those in even colder climates) - this winter has actually been very mild
but I can't count on this. Obviously the pond needs to be dug to a depth
below the frost line to prevent the whole thing from freezing solid.
From recent observations of the reservoir for my water feature coupled
with the depth of my old pond and how far that iced up I'm pretty sure
that I can get the depth to avoid a total freeze up.....but I am now
curious how low the temperature can drop at the bottom of the pond
without it adversely affecting the fish...

TIA
Gill

A heater at the ready will relieve all stress. ;-) ~ jan

As long as the water is not frozen that they are in they will
survive.I do not know exactly how cold thsat would be, but if you habd
a pond 4 feet deep and three feet of it was frozen solid, they would
still be fine in that foot of unfrozen water......as long as they
have an air hole or opening for gas exchange.....The big this is dig
it deep enough so the pond does not become one solid chunk of ice. I
do not know the frost level in your area but I would not think its all
that deep..For the most part my area sees hardly any frost yet alone
any ice. It does happen though. My water lines are buried a whopping 6
to 8 inches deep.....Never been frozen yet.......But temps have
dropped already and a 20 gal container of water with a goldy or two in
it has also became pretty much a frozen block of ice. I neglected ot
keep an eye on it, and to tell the truth I just up and forgot about
it. It did freeze pretty well close to completely, and had very little
space of unfrozen water for them to live in, yet the water lines
never froze. I guess it wa due to the fact the ground where water
lines run is in sunlight and exposed to suns warmth, where the half
barrel was on th enorth side in full shade of the house and no
sun.....but those two black moors did just fine.....I just measured
the temps in the three barrel feature as we have been having some
cold weather for here, and the water is 37 deg I guess the half barrel
is about 15 inches deep, and fully exposed all around to air......It
does have a thin skim of ice on one edge. The nearest preforms water
is still in the mid 40's as far as temp is concerned.....That ground
does offer good heat retention, and you will gain the heat lost fromn
a foundation into a pond if it is built close enough in lots of
cases.....Its unreal just how much heat can be lost through a
foundation. I dunno if youy all have slabs or basements, (more than
likely slabs) and even they will radiate and lose heat into the
ground. I guess once they get past a certain point they just go into a
hibernation......I know goldies and koi are in the speices of common
carp and minnows, and they all do just fine in the rivers and ponds
and dams that freeze up. I just have to believe if there is stil
sufficient water and gas exchange hole they will be fine...

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:25:39 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

I'm actually leaning towards the planned pond being occupied by
Shubunkins/Comets - the reasoning behind this being, that for now, I'm
not convinced that I would be able to build a large enough pond to house
koi.

Living in an area where we can get heavy frosts I need to carefully
consider temperature drops in the winter (although not to the extent of
those in even colder climates) - this winter has actually been very mild
but I can't count on this. Obviously the pond needs to be dug to a depth
below the frost line to prevent the whole thing from freezing solid.
From recent observations of the reservoir for my water feature coupled
with the depth of my old pond and how far that iced up I'm pretty sure
that I can get the depth to avoid a total freeze up.....but I am now
curious how low the temperature can drop at the bottom of the pond
without it adversely affecting the fish...

TIA
Gill



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:52:35 GMT, ~ jan
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:25:39 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

I'm actually leaning towards the planned pond being occupied by
Shubunkins/Comets - the reasoning behind this being, that for now, I'm
not convinced that I would be able to build a large enough pond to house
koi.

Well there are a lot of pretty shubunkins and goldfish to choose from now
days. Plus I have less stress over my goldfish than I do with my koi.

Living in an area where we can get heavy frosts I need to carefully
consider temperature drops in the winter (although not to the extent of
those in even colder climates) - this winter has actually been very mild
but I can't count on this. Obviously the pond needs to be dug to a depth
below the frost line to prevent the whole thing from freezing solid.
From recent observations of the reservoir for my water feature coupled
with the depth of my old pond and how far that iced up I'm pretty sure
that I can get the depth to avoid a total freeze up.....but I am now
curious how low the temperature can drop at the bottom of the pond
without it adversely affecting the fish...

TIA
Gill

A heater at the ready will relieve all stress. ;-) ~ janYea, especialy if you only need a 100 watter!

I shudder to think about the power bill some must have with those 5 or
6000 watt heaters runing during the fall and winter months in a large
koi pond.



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

This maya be kind of a dumb question, considering the rap UK gets for
no sun, but does that area of your yard get much sun. As cold as its
may get, it still makes a heap of difference even on a cold day when
that old sun pops out.

We have an undergrund shelter made from 6 foot diam steel corrugated
culvert pipe 20 feet long......and its buried under 3' of dirt. Even
in it as cool as it stays in summer yu can feel a distinct difference
on the ceiling of it even with the three feet of dirt and brush on
top. In cold months temps have never dropped below 60 deg no matter
how cold its been outside.....

Do you have an ordinance / law/ regulation in regards to maximum depth
a pond can be? Some areas do have a max depth allowed in
residential areas. I am a firm believer of deeper is better up to a
certain point that is, but perhaps that area you have the french drain
is what they call it in USA, (gravel drain) you could build it up
higher, or make that area itself just a bit more shallower and perhaps
reserve it for a planted / marginal/ bog area, or pass over it with a
stream of sorts or perhaps postion the water fall there......

Your pics are nice and you do have lots of potential for a nice pond.
I tend to like a pond nestled in a corner, with lots of plants like
bamboo etc on the blind sides, but it does create problems when
maintenance etc is needed working up against a fence or house
wall......That decking is unique, that I see in the pics. The fellow I
mentined that just moved to the USA from GB, had decking like that and
he had it sanded and varnished and sanded and varnished to such a
high gloss it was nicer than most folks high dollar hard wood floors
or boat decks....... HIs pond was constructed differently. He dug a
hole and laid his pipes etc, for DB's etc/ then he laid in sheets of
foam, and then had it fiberglassed over, so his pond was actually a
formed inplace fiber glass pond. No worries for the most party with
leaks in liners etc.....and bamboo roots certainly would not be a
potential problem either....






On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:25:39 +0000, Gill Passman
wrote:

I'm actually leaning towards the planned pond being occupied by
Shubunkins/Comets - the reasoning behind this being, that for now, I'm
not convinced that I would be able to build a large enough pond to house
koi.

Living in an area where we can get heavy frosts I need to carefully
consider temperature drops in the winter (although not to the extent of
those in even colder climates) - this winter has actually been very mild
but I can't count on this. Obviously the pond needs to be dug to a depth
below the frost line to prevent the whole thing from freezing solid.
From recent observations of the reservoir for my water feature coupled
with the depth of my old pond and how far that iced up I'm pretty sure
that I can get the depth to avoid a total freeze up.....but I am now
curious how low the temperature can drop at the bottom of the pond
without it adversely affecting the fish...

TIA
Gill



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Firstly for the benefit of those that didn't get the pics because this
group doesn't carry binaries I can supply the text of the discussion but
not the pics......anyone who wants the pics can email me.....sorry, but
I am too lazy to put them up on a site....although I might post them to
TFA which would make them readily available.....I sent this mail to some
rp regulars.....some responded via pm but as Tristan has responded here
I will give the text....hopefully it makes sense without the pics....

"Firstly apologies if the attachments are too large……to give some sense
of scale the planter on the deck seen in the “possible pond area” pic is
4 foot long and around 18” high.

The original plan when we did this part of the garden was to have a pond
where the waterfall thingy was right up to the edge of the deck….there
then was going to be a stream running to a second pond where the irises
are…..but we hit a problem with the stream….and as we needed to get the
garden done for a party we compromised with the bog garden and the water
feature.

My plan, would be to remove the waterfall – the wood posts holding the
planks that hold the earth pile for the waterfall are concreted in so
removal wouldn’t be an option, and additionally the one to the rear
protects the fence so would need to stay anyhow, with a bit of
reinforcement, maybe if I take the pond up to that height above ground –
this is unlikely because of the deck, unless of course I created a
raised level a bit like the water fall but constructed from timber/brick
to give a waterfall again and maybe create a small veggie filter up
there. My idea would be to take the water level up to the height of the
deck. The depth of the pond becomes an issue the further away from the
fence – this is because there is a soakaway pipe that is taking water
away from the house foundations about 1 foot under the topsoil……I’m
thinking creating a gentle shelving beach into the main puddle would
look quite nice…..The area where the existing waterfall and the
reservoir (the bit covered in pebbles) are has the potential for digging
down quite a way – I went down around 2 foot for the reservoir but it
would be quite easy to go deeper – the house was a self-build by the
previous owners so therefore doesn’t have the usual rubble in the garden
– just a lot of clay soil.

Now, the bamboo clumps are another cause for concern. I do not want to
remove them…..but they are of the clump forming variety rather than
sending out side-shoots type. I’m guessing that I will need to protect
the liner from any possible root spread but it has to be said that these
have been in situ for 5 years and the spread has been more upwards than
outwards.

The rocks that form the waterfall and the borders of the water feature
would be incorporated into the new pond – also the large ones are way
too heavy to even contemplate moving them too far away from this
location – I would probably use them as an edging and maybe add to them.

The second option would be to put the pond on the bog garden
site…..certainly there are no issues digging to the required depth but
I’m not sure that it wouldn’t just be tucked away in a corner if put
there….another concern would be with the railway sleepers possibly
leaching into the water. But I included the pic anyway to see what you
thought. Of course I suppose, even with the depth restrictions it might
be possible to actually build two ponds with just a shallow stream going
between the two….

Power is not an issue. Both locations are close to an outdoor power
supply (with all the necessary safety gadgets incorporated) – we already
have the channelling for power cables running under the decking….just
not used at the moment….

Let me know what you think – or if I am crazy to even contemplate this"



Tristan wrote:
This maya be kind of a dumb question, considering the rap UK gets for
no sun, but does that area of your yard get much sun. As cold as its
may get, it still makes a heap of difference even on a cold day when
that old sun pops out.

The whole back garden faces West.....so it gets full sun from around
11am until the sun falls behind the trees that overshadow the
garden.....in reality, even if it is chilly out the front of the house
or wandering around town, I can still go out in a T-Shirt and do the
garden (well not right now but anytime from March/April til Sept/Oct)....

Do you have an ordinance / law/ regulation in regards to maximum depth
a pond can be? Some areas do have a max depth allowed in
residential areas. I am a firm believer of deeper is better up to a
certain point that is, but perhaps that area you have the french drain
is what they call it in USA, (gravel drain) you could build it up
higher, or make that area itself just a bit more shallower and perhaps
reserve it for a planted / marginal/ bog area, or pass over it with a
stream of sorts or perhaps postion the water fall there......

There are no regulations with respect to the building of ponds or any
depth limitations in the UK....anything, I guess, would be self imposed
in terms of safety......as the garden, like the majority of gardens in
the UK, is very enclosed any safety issues would be with family members
or guests....

Your pics are nice and you do have lots of potential for a nice pond.
I tend to like a pond nestled in a corner, with lots of plants like
bamboo etc on the blind sides, but it does create problems when
maintenance etc is needed working up against a fence or house
wall......

As I already need to work around the bamboo while maintaining the garden
it isn't too much of an issue.....well, no more of an issue than it
already is.....the whole water feature structure is set 18" away from
the fence....so if the pond is an adaptation of this then the same
issues apply as I have when it comes to weeding and clearing the stuff
on the hump that forms the hill for the waterfall....in the area that I
am considering the house itself is a good 6 foot away....so I'm not
hitting the house structure....just the deck structure.....


That decking is unique, that I see in the pics. The fellow I
mentined that just moved to the USA from GB, had decking like that and
he had it sanded and varnished and sanded and varnished to such a
high gloss it was nicer than most folks high dollar hard wood floors
or boat decks.......

We keep the decking unpolished....less slippery in our wet weather...we
power clean it when we need to...plus we both like the more natural look
and feel to things......although I can see and appreciate that a highly
polished decking area would be awesome in the right garden.....



HIs pond was constructed differently. He dug a
hole and laid his pipes etc, for DB's etc/ then he laid in sheets of
foam, and then had it fiberglassed over, so his pond was actually a
formed inplace fiber glass pond. No worries for the most party with
leaks in liners etc.....and bamboo roots certainly would not be a
potential problem either....

I'm not over keen on the whole idea of using fibre glass
preforms....maybe because I would prefer to create a more natural look
which IMO is not possible within that type of confine.....of course
there might be the option of digging the hole and then getting it
"fibre-glassed" to fit the shape but I would reckon that that would be
soooo expensive compared to using a decent pond liner.....not that I am
one to skimp on money to get things right....but more being realistic
about getting what I want and money not spent in one place can be spent
elsewhere.....filtration, plants and livestock....but I know you are not
suggesting this....

Glad that you don't think my bamboo clump roots will be too much of an
issue.....my old pond had an issue with nettle roots but these are far
more invasive....

Thank for the tips and comments
gill

Gill Passman wrote:

I'm actually leaning towards the planned pond being occupied by
Shubunkins/Comets - the reasoning behind this being, that for now, I'm
not convinced that I would be able to build a large enough pond to house
koi.

Gill, there's no such thing as a pond in England that can't support "Koi or
Goldfish" - if you want to get into some of the fancier goldfish, it might
get dicey, but comets are going to be fine. There are good reasons to go
deep when raising koi, but it's not for the temperature.

Living in an area where we can get heavy frosts I need to carefully
consider temperature drops in the winter (although not to the extent of
those in even colder climates) - this winter has actually been very mild
but I can't count on this. Obviously the pond needs to be dug to a depth
below the frost line to prevent the whole thing from freezing solid.

Where's your frost line? In Ottawa, Ontario, one of our regulars did fine
with an 18" deep pond. The frost line there is well below 3' & weeks
of -20C temperatures are expected most winters. Koi & comets did fine in
my Ontario pond (which did reach 5') with 2' of ice on it.

From recent observations of the reservoir for my water feature coupled
with the depth of my old pond and how far that iced up I'm pretty sure
that I can get the depth to avoid a total freeze up.....but I am now
curious how low the temperature can drop at the bottom of the pond
without it adversely affecting the fish...

If it's liquid, they can survive. If it freezes solid, there are some
(possibly apocryphal) stories of goldfish surviving. Far more important
than the temperature is getting some oxygen in their when there's ice on
the surface for extended periods.
--
derek

Gill,

Jim and I circulate our pond water all winter here in Jackson. The
pump pulls from the bottom of the pond (deep well at 7'). That means
that the whole pond goes to 32 degrees when we have ice on the
top...which we have had for as long as several days. The koi and
goldfish did fine.

Phyllis

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
Gill, there's no such thing as a pond in England that can't support "Koi
or
Goldfish" - if you want to get into some of the fancier goldfish, it might
get dicey, but comets are going to be fine. There are good reasons to go
deep when raising koi, but it's not for the temperature.

Brevity snip
==============================
Here in zone 6 I have several varieties of fancy goldfish that do just fine
outside year round. These are Moors, Orandas, water-bubble eyes, and
lionheads.
--
ZB....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*