re.Koi Food

"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
ps.com...
Vets have done necropsies and verified the problems.

Jan,

Are any of their findings available to us?

Jim

====================
I'm curious to know how these veterinarians are related to the pond fish
(koi) industry. Also who paid for or supported the research. How many years
it was carried out and in what climate/zones. And how old were the fry when
the research started. What where the growth rates between the different koi
feeds in the research program compared to the trout and catfish foods. What
conditions were the koi living under. What University was the research done
at......
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

~ jan wrote:
On 24 Feb 2007 19:32:26 -0800, "Phyllis and Jim"
wrote:


Vets have done necropsies and verified the problems.

Jan,

Are any of their findings available to us?

Jim


I'll see if I can find something. ~ jan

That would be very interesting if you can - my guess would be that the
key is a varied diet suited to the nutritional needs of the
animal/creature in question....

Gill

I teach research methodology to family therapy students. Your
questions are right on target when we are in the threats to validity
section of the course. We spend time thinking of all sorts of things
that could possibly influence the outcome. Professional research
generally tries to describe the limitations of the work to guide
future researchers.

I also push my students to asses the threats as to the magnitude of
their probable influence. This set of decisions is harder to make and
imprecise because so much is unknown. A good class will produce
hundreds of possible threats, more than can be controlled unless the
researcher has nearly infinite financing. The result often reduces
the number of clearly-relevant-and-significantly-impactful threats.

We also discuss the magnitude of threat to validity that we would
consider to be important. If we were examining frequency of dyed hair
among clients, we could allow lots of threats to go by. If we were
testing medication with lethal side effects, we would want to run down
lots more of the threats.

My guess is that koi/goldfish research will provide us with some
answers to some of your questions. If Jan can find some research, we
could look at it in terms of possible threats to validity. Your
questions about who paid for the research are certainly on target.

Statistics has a bunch of sayings: 'Garbage in, garbage out' describes
the effect of poor data collection. 'There are liars, damned liars
and statisticians' describes manipulative use of research. I am sure
we will all look at nutrition studies carefully.

Jim

"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
ups.com...
I teach research methodology to family therapy students. Your
questions are right on target when we are in the threats to validity
section of the course. We spend time thinking of all sorts of things
that could possibly influence the outcome. Professional research
generally tries to describe the limitations of the work to guide
future researchers.

I also push my students to asses the threats as to the magnitude of
their probable influence. This set of decisions is harder to make and
imprecise because so much is unknown. A good class will produce
hundreds of possible threats, more than can be controlled unless the
researcher has nearly infinite financing. The result often reduces
the number of clearly-relevant-and-significantly-impactful threats.

We also discuss the magnitude of threat to validity that we would
consider to be important. If we were examining frequency of dyed hair
among clients, we could allow lots of threats to go by. If we were
testing medication with lethal side effects, we would want to run down
lots more of the threats.

My guess is that koi/goldfish research will provide us with some
answers to some of your questions. If Jan can find some research, we
could look at it in terms of possible threats to validity. Your
questions about who paid for the research are certainly on target.

Statistics has a bunch of sayings: 'Garbage in, garbage out' describes
the effect of poor data collection. 'There are liars, damned liars
and statisticians' describes manipulative use of research. I am sure
we will all look at nutrition studies carefully.

Jim
========================
Well said and worth repeating, so no brevity snips. Meanwhile until more is
known I'll feed them as I did before. I'll save myself over $200 a year and
have fry with enough weight to see them through our zone 6 winters. The
filters were no cleaner either on the $5 lb food. I wonder if anyone really
knows what koi and goldfish live on in the wild. From my observations over
the years they appear to be omnivores. If they can get it in their mouth and
swallow it, they'll eat it with the exception if fish fry.

I also remember the beautiful huge koi at Flushing Meadow Corona Park in the
1970s. They thrived on a diet of popcorn, bits of hot-dogs and hot-dog buns,
whatever "junk food" people tossed in to them... plus whatever natural food
existed in the water course.

BTW, I went back to that zoo last Sept. We didn't see any, but they had
redone the entire zoo area.

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

I am old enough to remember when we had dogs we bought frozen raw horse meat for
them. later my parents starting feeding "kibble". I have one dog (inherited) who
went to emergency with congestive heart failure. 1500 bucks later I got back a nearly
dead dog with "6 months to live". She is allergic to nearly everything. She looked
listless on her allergy and then her "heart" diet and her fur (she is a Pom) was like
straw. At the same time our new springer broke out in hot spots and granuloma.
1.5 years ago I switched all the dogs to a raw meaty bone diet, the Pom is fed whole
raw fish (that includes head, tail, innards). Within a week she is back to bright,
sassy, and now her fur is like silk. It is now 1 year 9 months since she almost
died. None of my dogs have bad teeth anymore, none foul breath, none itchy or
problem skin, their coats are all full and lush.

Dog evolved for over a million years and their food is nearly 100% raw meaty bone.
Now that so many "premium" diets are sickening and killing dogs due to fungal toxins
growing on the grain used in the diets, so many dogs have allergies, cancer, etc.
more people are taking dogs back to natural raw meaty bones diets.

Who has the money and interest to do the research to answer these questions? it isnt
simply one dog food, there are hundreds. For most dogs the grain based food works OK
so the number of dogs would have to be very large to get any kind of significance.
Or maybe not.

I do know one thing brought home the need for proper food diets was a study I'd seen
done on ferrets. I used to have ferrets but it broke my heart that they went into
this horrible decline between 2-3 and died so young. I had no idea why this was
happening until I read up on raw diets for dogs, then did a search on the net.

http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk/comments.htm It is not standard research, but
some one that has tried various things and kept track.

I think the same is true of fish. Koi and Goldfish dont eat "veggies", they eat the
itty bitty critters on the algae. In China and Japan they power feed the young ones
live food like blood worms, black worms, daphnia, etc. all manner of "meat". I have
been feeding my koi a high quality koi food, Rangen koi color. It isnt ideal, but I
havent had any disease in my fish since I went to this food (and a veggie filter and
heating the pond in winter). So I dont really know which is responsible for the
health of my fish. In spring I do see a little bit of white crap on a few of them,
especially my black koi which show everything. But as the water warms it goes away.

I feed my 22 fish about 1/2 cup a day. The less waste grains in the food, the less
mess in the water, the less ammonia too. This coming year I am going to look for
even more natural food, something like this
http://www.jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/FISH...eze_dried.html

Ingrid


~ jan wrote:
I do have a reply to Roy who said something about people shouldn't have
these critters if they aren't gonna feed them right. We have to remember
that dog chow doesn't even have that long a history. People fed their dogs
scraps off the table, right? Someone saw a market and here we be.

I just feel, with what we know today, that we ought to take advantage of
that knowledge. What you feed your own critters is up to you, but what you
recommend to others you ought to do with some integrity, based on recent
studies.

Sho Koi, delivered to my door, runs me less than $5/lb. and I'd save even
more if I could order 50 lbs. of it. Manda Fu, including delivery, runs
$15/throw pillow size bag. It is very light weight, so one can't go by
weight. Probably why it is so easily digested and a great fall/spring food.
~ jan



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

Right now I'm just doing some googling and found an article by Sandy Yosha,
who has no involvement with fish food makers. She was our vet for the KHA's
paid by the AKCA, she now works for a very big vet. clinic in Florida doing
only fish.

From this website:
http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/AAPS/Ar...koi%20husb.pdf

This small insert:
Nutritional Diseases- (Review the Nutrition section). Nutritional diseases
fall into two categories: deficiency or toxicity. The most common
deficiency known to date is vitamin C, which can cause
crooked backs, bone deformities, bleeding, abnormal wound healing and many
other problems. Vitamin C deficiency compromises the immune system so that
the koi are more susceptible to other diseases.
With the advent of stabilized vitamin C in the food (a synthetic vitamin C
that is much more stable than natural vitamin C), vitamin C deficiency is
less common. However, much less is known about the other
vitamin deficiencies in koi and they might be suspected in cases where the
cause of disease is not immediately obvious. The signs of deficiency or
toxicity are complex and subtle, and are covered in the
supplemental textbook for this course. Also review the AKCA Guide to Koi
Nutrition and the nutrition sections of this course.

The KHA is not likely to be dealing with vitamin deficiency if the fish are
eating a quality diet, but if they are not, it will be one of the first
changes in husbandry that the KHA should suggest.

BoldCatfish and trout chows are not appropriate feed for koi.Bold

Many will debate the quality of koi feeds, but there are many good choices
that are commercially available. All feeds are not necessarily appropriate
for all life stages or for all seasons. One fact is certain, good quality
feed will contain stabilized or synthetic vitamin C. Review the nutrition
sections for additional information. In order to maintain nutritional
value, check the shelf life of the feed, the date of milling or freshness,
buy in small quantity and keep the feed dry and cool. Freezing pelleted
feed is not recommended, but short term freezing of pelleted feed
containing a medicine can be done since it is a small quantity....
----
I met Sandy, really respect her knowledge, I know she doesn't work for the
pet food industry. Her write up, and there is far more to it than the
above, including pictures, is well worth the read. As it is more than just
nutrition. Unless I hear back for the KHA board on a better article, you
all can google as easily as I can. :-) I'm convinced, and like I said, an
owner can feed their fish, dog, cat whatever they want, IMHO. I just don't
think it is prudent to be telling other people who ask, "What is best?" To
go in that direction. ~ jan

I think that you have raised some very interesting points here.....


wrote:
I am old enough to remember when we had dogs we bought frozen raw horse meat for
them. later my parents starting feeding "kibble".

I remember 40 years plus ago my Grandmother only ever fed offal and
other meat to her cat - it lived until almost 20. OTOH my previous cat
lived on a diet of tinned cat food and biscuits and even though it was
the top brand died of kidney failure at 12.....


I have one dog (inherited) who
went to emergency with congestive heart failure. 1500 bucks later I got back a nearly
dead dog with "6 months to live". She is allergic to nearly everything. She looked
listless on her allergy and then her "heart" diet and her fur (she is a Pom) was like
straw. At the same time our new springer broke out in hot spots and granuloma.
1.5 years ago I switched all the dogs to a raw meaty bone diet, the Pom is fed whole
raw fish (that includes head, tail, innards). Within a week she is back to bright,
sassy, and now her fur is like silk. It is now 1 year 9 months since she almost
died. None of my dogs have bad teeth anymore, none foul breath, none itchy or
problem skin, their coats are all full and lush.

Food allergies seem to be something of our times......I really can't
remember even a couple of decades ago that there was such a high
profile....an example would be nut allergies....unheard of when I was a
child in the 60s but these days you can't even send a child in with a
lunch containing any trace of nuts just in case it effects someone with
a nut allergy....interestingly enough when I was expecting the youngest
(now almost 6) the advice was not to eat any nuts while pregnant because
the theory was that nut allergies developed before birth - conversely of
course, it could be because people don't eat so many nuts these days
that the allergy has developed.....Now, I'm wondering if the same
applies to other animals.....My experience with dogs actually differs
from yours.....mine become unhealthy if fed a pure , protein
diet....(and you don't want to be the first downstairs believe me)....So
I wonder how much of this is actually down to the evolution of these
creatures as well....



Dog evolved for over a million years and their food is nearly 100% raw meaty bone.
Now that so many "premium" diets are sickening and killing dogs due to fungal toxins
growing on the grain used in the diets, so many dogs have allergies, cancer, etc.
more people are taking dogs back to natural raw meaty bones diets.

Who has the money and interest to do the research to answer these questions? it isnt
simply one dog food, there are hundreds. For most dogs the grain based food works OK
so the number of dogs would have to be very large to get any kind of significance.
Or maybe not.

I would hazard a guess that most of the research is done by the Pet Food
companies but, certainly in the UK, commissioned via the
Universities....afterall it is not in their interests to produce a food
targetted at a certain animal/fish that does not provide for the
nutritional needs of that creature.....this has to be coupled with a
little bit of sceptism that a company commissioning research on one of
their products wants a positive research project saying that their
product is the best......the ability to read behind the lines is an
essential qualification needed when reading such reports, and to read
the one that actually came from the research rather than the one put out
for marketing....


I do know one thing brought home the need for proper food diets was a study I'd seen
done on ferrets. I used to have ferrets but it broke my heart that they went into
this horrible decline between 2-3 and died so young. I had no idea why this was
happening until I read up on raw diets for dogs, then did a search on the net.

http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk/comments.htm It is not standard research, but
some one that has tried various things and kept track.

I've had similar experiences with guinea-pigs and rabbits....my pair now
have a very mixed diet with little reliance on the commercially produced
food although they do get this daily as well....key I guess is a mixed
diet....



I think the same is true of fish. Koi and Goldfish dont eat "veggies", they eat the
itty bitty critters on the algae. In China and Japan they power feed the young ones
live food like blood worms, black worms, daphnia, etc. all manner of "meat". I have
been feeding my koi a high quality koi food, Rangen koi color. It isnt ideal, but I
havent had any disease in my fish since I went to this food (and a veggie filter and
heating the pond in winter). So I dont really know which is responsible for the
health of my fish. In spring I do see a little bit of white crap on a few of them,
especially my black koi which show everything. But as the water warms it goes away.

One of the problems is that without a controlled environment it is not
possible to say what is the actual cause of fish thriving/not
thriving.....it could well be claimed that a change in diet might cause
a lack of growth but without actually having a control enviroment to
compare with the statement it becomes very much an IME.......not only do
we have the variable of the change in diet but also other variables -
and a pond can hardly be claimed to be a closed environment so even if
we believe nothing has changed it could well have....



I feed my 22 fish about 1/2 cup a day. The less waste grains in the food, the less
mess in the water, the less ammonia too. This coming year I am going to look for
even more natural food, something like this
http://www.jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/FISH...eze_dried.html

Sadly, it isn't always possible for everyone to feed a natural diet to
their fish.....in fact it is nigh on impossible unless we return them to
the wild....but we do the best we can with what is available......Good
luck, Ingrid, with the move to more natural foods - I'm sure your fish
will appreciate it and thrive - plus look forward to hearing how they do....

Gill



Ingrid

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
Right now I'm just doing some googling and found an article by Sandy
Yosha,
who has no involvement with fish food makers. She was our vet for the
KHA's
paid by the AKCA, she now works for a very big vet. clinic in Florida
doing
only fish.

From this website:
http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/AAPS/Ar...koi%20husb.pdf

This small insert:
Nutritional Diseases- (Review the Nutrition section). Nutritional diseases
fall into two categories: deficiency or toxicity. The most common
deficiency known to date is vitamin C, which can cause
crooked backs, bone deformities, bleeding, abnormal wound healing and many
other problems.

* I've never seen that in my fish indoors or out. They have access to C rich
algae and fresh oranges (which they love).

Vitamin C deficiency compromises the immune system so that
the koi are more susceptible to other diseases.
With the advent of stabilized vitamin C in the food (a synthetic vitamin C
that is much more stable than natural vitamin C), vitamin C deficiency is
less common. However, much less is known about the other
vitamin deficiencies in koi and they might be suspected in cases where the
cause of disease is not immediately obvious. The signs of deficiency or
toxicity are complex and subtle, and are covered in the
supplemental textbook for this course. Also review the AKCA Guide to Koi
Nutrition and the nutrition sections of this course.

The KHA is not likely to be dealing with vitamin deficiency if the fish
are
eating a quality diet, but if they are not, it will be one of the first
changes in husbandry that the KHA should suggest.

BoldCatfish and trout chows are not appropriate feed for koi.Bold

* For what reason? Trout and Catfish don't require vitamin C?

Many will debate the quality of koi feeds, but there are many good choices
that are commercially available. All feeds are not necessarily appropriate
for all life stages or for all seasons.

* And NOTE please that they don't state that fact on the bags no matter how
outrageously expensive.

One fact is certain, good quality
feed will contain stabilized or synthetic vitamin C. Review the nutrition
sections for additional information. In order to maintain nutritional
value, check the shelf life of the feed, the date of milling or freshness,
buy in small quantity and keep the feed dry and cool. Freezing pelleted
feed is not recommended, but short term freezing of pelleted feed
containing a medicine can be done since it is a small quantity....
----
I met Sandy, really respect her knowledge, I know she doesn't work for the
pet food industry.

* She didn't mention why catfish and trout chows are "not appropriate"
either.

Her write up, and there is far more to it than the
above, including pictures, is well worth the read. As it is more than just
nutrition. Unless I hear back for the KHA board on a better article, you
all can google as easily as I can. :-) I'm convinced, and like I said, an
owner can feed their fish, dog, cat whatever they want, IMHO. I just
don't
think it is prudent to be telling other people who ask, "What is best?" To
go in that direction. ~ jan

* If they ask what is BEST they should get replies from everyone as to what
is BEST for THEIR fish, under their conditions in their zone. No one can
know what is best for the person asking unless they have the same set-up in
the same climate zone etc. Even then.... how can you be sure? People
should be told that others do have great success with the cheaper feeds.
Why deny them that knowledge? Let them chose which route to take. Paying
$10 a lb is no guarantee the food is any better than food costing $4 a lb.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

I met Sandy, I respect her knowledge, I know she doesn't work for the
pet food industry. Her write up, is well worth the read. As it is more than
just nutrition. Unless I hear back from the KHA board on a better article,

You can google as easily as I can. :-)

I'll take her word for it, and like I said, an owner can feed their fish,
dog, cat whatever they want, IMHO. I just don't think it is prudent to be
telling other people who ask, "What is best?" To go in that direction.

Your experience, fine, just expect it to be rebuttal and don't take it
personally. ~ jan

Trout and catfish chows are formulated to grow trout and catfish as large as
possible as quickly as possible in order to get them to your table as
cheaply as possible.

These fish are collected for consumption when they are no more than 2 years
old.

The feeds are formulated for fast growth, NOT the longterm (meaning many
years) health and well being of said fish.

Healthy KOI will live for 40+ years.