Neon Tetra problems already

Check your tap water for nitrate levels - you may be adding nearly as much
as you are taking out!


"St. Clair" wrote in message
...
I would do a 50% water change weekly, see how that treats your nitrates.
If
you're doing it every two weeks and still getting 80 ppm, it's not enough
and your fish will suffer long term effects.

Unfortunately, the only real effective way of controlling nitrates is
still
through water changes. Plants help a little, yes, but only a little.
Ion-exchange resigns help a little as well, but produce calcium and other
minerals which harden your water which in your case you don't need.

What water conditioner are you using? I would use Seachem's Prime as it
not
only eliminates chlorine but also detoxifies ammonia, nitrites and
nitrates.
Plus, because it's concentrated, you save around 20 bucks compared to
every
other brand. (a capful treats 50 gallons versus others which are a capful
treats 10 gallons).


"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"Liisa Sarakontu" wrote in message
6...
"Reel McKoi" wrote in
:

Nitrate - 80

Dirty, dirty water! Although some fish can stand even 100 ppm nitrate,
anything over 50 is bad and it is best not to let it get higher than 20
ppm
(or 20 mg per liter, that's nearly the same).

Dirty water? The tank got a 90% water change shortly before I added the
fish. The gravel bed was vacuumed and the Diatom run to remove fine
particles. I can't stop feeding them, or stop them from passing waste
nor
can I do daily water changes. There were several ottos, 2 clown plecos
and a reg pleco in the tank. Do you have a flow through system to keep
nitrates below 20mg per liter?

Is this a small tank? How many liters/gallons? Water changing routine?
How
many fish you have there and what species?

The tank is a 55g set up for several years and contains live plants.
Water changes are every 2 weeks. See above. I recently added 8 Neons, 2
small pearl graumies, 5 platys and the two corys (one died).
--

RM....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"St. Clair" wrote in message
...
No, they wouldn't get organ failure in a day or two, but the *first*
symptom would be not eating.

Even though hornwort will soak up nitrates, it won't at the speed you
need. I would do another 50% change now and test again. Then do 50% water
changes every 3rd day until you can get your nitrates at 20 or under.

How many fish do you have in the 55? How often do you do water changes?
=================================
There are 3 plecos, 2 are small clowns. There are 3 ottos. All these are
small fish but the one plco which is about 4". Then I added 5 platys, 2
small pearl groumies, two small corycats and 8 neon's. They've only been in
there something like a week. The tank is well established, contains live
plants, is 79/80F and before getting the new fish I vacuumed the entire
gravel bed, did a 90% water change and ran the Diatom filter for several
hours to remove all fines.

There is no way to do water changes without stressing these fish even more
than they've endured in the past 2 weeks. They're having trouble with this
shipment at the store and losing a lot of fish. I would not have bought
them had I known this. The manager believes it was heat-stress, then to add
more stress they're system kept going up to PH 8.2 and more, even with water
changes and PH down. I'll be avoiding this store for awhile. I liked buying
there as in the 2 years they've been in business I never once got a sick or
diseased fish.
--

RM....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"St. Clair" wrote in message
...
I would do a 50% water change weekly, see how that treats your nitrates.
If you're doing it every two weeks and still getting 80 ppm, it's not
enough and your fish will suffer long term effects.

Unfortunately, the only real effective way of controlling nitrates is
still through water changes. Plants help a little, yes, but only a
little. Ion-exchange resigns help a little as well, but produce calcium
and other minerals which harden your water which in your case you don't
need.

What water conditioner are you using?

All I use is Sodium Thiosulfate which I buy as crystals by the tub, then mix
my own as I've been doing for years. I don't use conditioners.

I would use Seachem's Prime as it not
only eliminates chlorine but also detoxifies ammonia, nitrites and
nitrates. Plus, because it's concentrated, you save around 20 bucks
compared to every other brand. (a capful treats 50 gallons versus others
which are a capful treats 10 gallons).


--

RM....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"RichardB" wrote in message
...
Check your tap water for nitrate levels - you may be adding nearly as much
as you are taking out!
=====================
I got a reading of zero from the faucet. But other times I got readings as
high as 30. It varies and the test kits are so expensive these days I don't
constantly test anymore. I hear more and more grumbles how this is becoming
a hobby for the wealthy, not the average Jane and Joe like it once was.
I've already been told on one of these groups that these kits you get in the
petshops aren't accurate and to buy some other kit.... which was over $100
as I recall.
--

RM....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"St. Clair" wrote in message
...
Well, using Prime would help your fish (it detoxifoes nitrates) since you
don't want to do water changes. You do want to help them, don't you?
=============================
Are you guaranteeing somehow the nitrates are the problem and the manager at
the pet shop just made up the stress, PH8+ story?

--

RM....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"Reel McKoi" wrote in
:

Do you have a flow through system to keep nitrates below 20mg per liter?

Nope. Just 30 % or so weekly changes with clean (no nitrates or other
nitrogen stuff) tapwater, quite a lot of living plants and most important:
not too many fish and no overfeeding.

The tank is a 55g ... I recently added 8 Neons,
2 small pearl graumies, 5 platys and the two corys (one died).
There were several ottos, 2 clown plecos and a reg pleco in the tank.

Anything called "regular pleco" is far too big for a 55g. Well, sometimes
bristlenose plecos (Ancistrus) are sold as "common plecos", and they are ok
in such tanks, but most often the "common plecos" are sailfin plecos
(Pterygoplichthys or whatever their current genus name is) or Liposarcus
plecos (again, the genus name has probably changed recently). They get half
a meter long (over 1 foot) and they need HUGE tanks to be able to live
happily.

Other than that one fish, the tank doesn't sound overcrowded although it is
a bad idea to add new fish to a tank with high nitrate level, and it is
also a bad idea to add lots of new fish at the same time as the bacteria
doesn't multiply that quickly and you can kill your fish with ammonia or
nitrite even if the tank is old (like yours is).

Cory cats are schooling fish, and it is not right to keep them in groups
less than 5 individuals of same species.

Do a 50 % water change (not 90 %, it is not a good idea to change water
quality too much too quickly) and test nitrate immediately after that. Wait
for 5 days or so and feed the tank normally and test nitrate again. If it
had gone up again, you have clearly too many fish and/or feed far too much.
In that latter case it would be good to test for nitrite too, just in case.
And test with a drop test, if possible, not with paper slips as they are
not that accurate.

Liisa

On Sep 12, 7:05 am, Tynk wrote:
On Sep 11, 4:41?pm, "Reel McKoi" wrote:

"RichardB" wrote in message

... Check your tap water for nitrate levels - you may be adding nearly as much
as you are taking out!

=====================
I got a reading of zero from the faucet. ?But other times I got readings as
high as 30.

RM....

Being that this was an older tank, it's very possible it was going (or
is) going through "old tank" syndrome.
Even with your 90% water change before adding several new fish, it
would have taken several more changes to do the job.
If you don't want to stress the new fish any more than they already
have been, you could consider doing more frequent, smaller water
changes.
You could daily small changes and stress them less than a large, once
a week water change.
I wouldn't do the *once every 2 weeks* on water changes with this
tank.
After you get the nitrates back down and the nitrifying bacteria have
increased their numbers to handle the bio load of all the new
arrivals, and the tank is back to being peachy, you could go back to
your normal 2 week schedule. However, you might also want to stick
with the smaller, weekly changes.

As Tynk stated, your tank is most likely going through old tank
syndrome.

Besides the use of Prime which I also recommend, here are a few other
suggestions for lowering your nitrates:

*Perform a water change using a gravel vacuum to remove not just dirty
water, but "mulm" that will decompose and enter the nitrogen cycle and
eventually become nitrates.
This can be a particular problem with Under Gravel Filters (UGF),
decomposing organic debris will tend to build up under the filter
plate. For these filters I recommend occasionally removing the lift
tubes and placing a siphon into the opening and removing as much
organic debris (mulm) as possible.
Even without UGF, poor vacuuming procedures (or none at all) can
contribute to high to high nitrates. Make sure and vacuum around and
under ornaments as well, although be careful around live plants.

*Proper filtration and maintenance; Make sure and regularly rinse in
de-chlorinated or used aquarium water (never tap water) your bio
filter media. This includes bio rings and balls commonly found in wet
dry filters and canister filters, sponge filters, bio wheels, or any
other media that is not changed in the filter. This is especially
important with filters that tend to become "nitrate factories", which
include in my experience (AND tests) to be; Canister Filters, Wet-Dry
filters, and Emperor Filters. This is not to say these filters are
bad, it is just important to not ignore properly cleaning these
filters even though their large capacity makes it very easy to do.

For more about this subject, please see this article:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....gen_Cycle.html

You may have also a disease or virus present in your aquarium, so
please watch for symptoms. One possible disease that shows little
symptom is Ichthyophonus which is a fungus (not to be confused with
ich). For mo http://aquarium-answers.blogspot.com...s-in-fish.html


You might consider SeaChem's Purigen as well. Although I do disagree
with the statement about added hardness (or GH), studies have shown
that hardness (not KH) controls pH spikes during hours of peak
photosynthesis even when KH is adequate. Calcium is also important for
proper osmoregulation as well.
See these articles:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....iumPlants.html
There is a graph here;
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/ClearPond.html

Carl

"Tynk" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 11, 4:41�pm, "Reel McKoi" wrote:
"RichardB" wrote in message

... Check your tap water for nitrate
levels - you may be adding nearly as much
as you are taking out!

=====================
I got a reading of zero from the faucet. But other times I got readings as
high as 30.

RM....

Being that this was an older tank, it's very possible it was going (or
is) going through "old tank" syndrome.
Even with your 90% water change before adding several new fish, it
would have taken several more changes to do the job.
If you don't want to stress the new fish any more than they already
have been, you could consider doing more frequent, smaller water
changes.

- - It's not the size of the water change, it's the removing the
fluorescent lights (2 2-bulb fixtures), shutting off the filter and then
adding water etc. I usually try to avoid stressing any new fish for at
least a week. They're doing much better this morning. I think I'll give
them until Friday, then start with 25% water changes every other day until
the nitrates are below 20. I also added hornwart, a known nitrate hog and
some elodia.... another nitrate lover. The outside 150g pools are just
about always near zero with these plants doing their job. :-)

You could daily small changes and stress them less than a large, once
a week water change.
I wouldn't do the *once every 2 weeks* on water changes with this
tank.
After you get the nitrates back down and the nitrifying bacteria have
increased their numbers to handle the bio load of all the new
arrivals, and the tank is back to being peachy, you could go back to
your normal 2 week schedule. However, you might also want to stick
with the smaller, weekly changes.

-- I might do that since I only have the two tanks in the house now.
--

RM....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"carlrs" wrote in message
oups.com...

(Brevity snips)

As Tynk stated, your tank is most likely going through old tank
syndrome.

This could very well be. I can't really know, but before I added any new
fish the tank (and filter) were thoroughly cleaned, the gravel vacuumed
until the water was darn near clear as the tank water. The glass was
cleaned - and then it was refilled, dechlorinator added at time of filling.
Then to make extra sure the water was as clean as possibly without breaking
down the tank I ran the Diatom filter for a few hours, stirring the gravel
over and over while it was running. There is no UGF in any of my tanks. I
will definately check out the sites below. Thanks. ;-)

All my filters are Aquaclears.


For more about this subject, please see this article:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....gen_Cycle.html

You may have also a disease or virus present in your aquarium, so
please watch for symptoms. One possible disease that shows little
symptom is Ichthyophonus which is a fungus (not to be confused with
ich). For mo
http://aquarium-answers.blogspot.com...s-in-fish.html


You might consider SeaChem's Purigen as well. Although I do disagree
with the statement about added hardness (or GH), studies have shown
that hardness (not KH) controls pH spikes during hours of peak
photosynthesis even when KH is adequate. Calcium is also important for
proper osmoregulation as well.
See these articles:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts....iumPlants.html
There is a graph here;
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/ClearPond.html

Carl

--

RM....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

"Liisa Sarakontu" wrote in message
6...
"Reel McKoi" wrote in
:

Do you have a flow through system to keep nitrates below 20mg per liter?

Nope. Just 30 % or so weekly changes with clean (no nitrates or other
nitrogen stuff) tapwater, quite a lot of living plants and most important:
not too many fish and no overfeeding.

The tank is a 55g ... I recently added 8 Neons,
2 small pearl graumies, 5 platys and the two corys (one died).
There were several ottos, 2 clown plecos and a reg pleco in the tank.

Anything called "regular pleco" is far too big for a 55g.

I know this and when he gets another inch longer he'll have to go back to
the pet shop like the other one did. Right now he's not that large.

Other than that one fish, the tank doesn't sound overcrowded although it
is
a bad idea to add new fish to a tank with high nitrate level, and it is
also a bad idea to add lots of new fish at the same time as the bacteria
doesn't multiply that quickly and you can kill your fish with ammonia or
nitrite even if the tank is old (like yours is).

This is well known and good advice. The ammonia is at zero this morning. I
didn't check the other parameters.

Cory cats are schooling fish, and it is not right to keep them in groups
less than 5 individuals of same species.

I was starting with two because funds are limited. I'm retired with no
income at all and my husband is semi-retired.

Do a 50 % water change (not 90 %, it is not a good idea to change water
quality too much too quickly) and test nitrate immediately after that.
Wait
for 5 days or so and feed the tank normally and test nitrate again. If it
had gone up again, you have clearly too many fish and/or feed far too
much.
In that latter case it would be good to test for nitrite too, just in
case.
And test with a drop test, if possible, not with paper slips as they are
not that accurate.

The last test kit using drops was over $20. I'll see what the other store
has........
--

RM....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö