Starting a reef tank

On Sep 25, 3:02 pm, "Pszemol" wrote:
"Big Habeeb" wrote in glegroups.com...
I think I was able to find my answers on the live rock - gotta get the
thing up and running with sal****er first. So can the sand handle
having freshwater put onto it and then salt added, or is that the same
kind of scenario?

All living critters in a reef tank will die in freshwater pretty quickly.
They will also die without water pretty quickly, but some of them
can survive in moist environment in some rock crevices, so
live rock is shipped without water, and what dies, it dies...
What survives the trip starts growing in your tank.

The sand bottom of the tank is done in couple different ways.
Also, what people call "live sand" could be quite different
depending who do you talk...
Some LFS sell "live sand" in plastic bag in moist state...
This is not what I would call live sand - this is rather wet sand.
It will have some bacteria left on the sand, but no living
creatures which could be beneficial in the reef tank: mini stars,
crustaceans, micro snails, etc.. For such animals to be present
in the live sand you need to fly it from the reef on the airplane.
Exactly like live rock is shipped. Day or two out of the ocean.
Not longer...

How is the "live sand" in the plastic bag made?
It is dead sand, sterilized to not stink, then a bacteria starter
is added and the bag is sealed. You pay big bugs for a wet
sand which you can make yourself at home buing some dry
playsand in Home Depot and a small bottle of bacteria starter.

So the order would be this way:
You make up sal****er in a clean, plastic bucket or two.
Let it stand until everything is mixed well and not cloudy (overnight).
You make enough water to cover the sand... lets say 10 gallons.
You put a layer of dry sand on the bottom of the tank...
Using known technique from freshwater tanks you place
a dinner plate or a foil bag on the surface of the sand and
pour water in the tank to not disturb sand too much...

If you are going with REAL live sand layer on top of the
dry sand as a seeding method, now you would put a layer
of live sand. Also try to disturb the sand as little as possible.

Then you prepare more water and add untill the tank is
maybe 70% full... You need room for the live rock volume.

Before you add live rock you keep the tank with just sand
and water for couple of days to make sand settle a bit.

If your dry sand was not clean and have a lots of organic
debris you will observe quite a big ammonia spike now...
Wait for adding rock until ammonia be not detectable.

Then you can add live rock, do landscaping and top off
the rest of the sal****er to make the tank full.

At this moment you should have no fish, no invertebrates,
espiecially corals in the tank... You are expecting huge
ammonia spikes before the tank will complete nitrogen cycle.

Depending of the quality of the rock, the tank will cycle
sooner or later. If you have rock shipped to your home
dirrectly you will expect more dead animals on the rocks,
so you will have to wait longer for the tank to cycle.
If you buy already cured rock in the local store, bring
it quickly to your tank the die-off will be minimal and
in most cases you will not see ammonia spike at all...

Tank at this level, with bare-bone live rock, no fish, should
be your first goal. This will keep you busy for weeks...

In the meantime, buy a good book and read it cover to
cover before you buy your tank, lights and equipment...
What you buy STRONGLY depends on what you want to
keep in your tank... what type of corals, what types of fish.

Thank you SO much for the response here. I have, in fact, read a
couple of books but they seem to mostly focus on the chemistry of the
tank...which is important, no doubt, but doesn't really help me figure
out how to START, which you have just helped me out here with. I know
it takes time and the first goal you set is exactly what I
anticipated. As someone who has mostly done freshwater with very few
jumps into salt I guess I just didnt know how to go about getting
rolling in terms of the salt water itself. I know I can mix it
myself, I was just hoping there was an easier way to go about filling
a tank...i.e. in a 72 gallon tank, pump in 50 gallons of water from a
hose and then adjust salt content as needed...but I'm guessing that
would cause a major problem in terms of getting the sand substrate to
settle down to the bottom.

And yes, I know the "bowl in the bottom" method very well. the first,
and still probably the best, trick I ever learned from my time doing
freshwater stuffs.

About the only question you DIDNT answer was in terms of being able to
stack live rock - can you actually epoxy the stuff together, or will
that murder everything in there? I've read a lot about people gluing
organisms TO the rock, but not actually connecting the rock at
all...any thoughts?

Mitch

"Big Habeeb" wrote in message ups.com...
Thank you SO much for the response here. I have, in fact, read a
couple of books but they seem to mostly focus on the chemistry of the
tank...which is important, no doubt, but doesn't really help me figure
out how to START, which you have just helped me out here with.

Could you please provide titles/authors of books you read?

myself, I was just hoping there was an easier way to go about filling
a tank...i.e. in a 72 gallon tank, pump in 50 gallons of water from a
hose and then adjust salt content as needed...but I'm guessing that
would cause a major problem in terms of getting the sand substrate to
settle down to the bottom.

First, you do not use tap water.
You want reverse osmosis filtered water.
70 gallons tank is not that hard to fill with buckets as you might think.
Get a couple of empty Instant Ocean salt buckets - they are about
5-6 gallons each. Fill them with RO water and mix salt. Use proper
tools to make it salty enough - you will find details in any book.

About the only question you DIDNT answer was in terms of being able to
stack live rock - can you actually epoxy the stuff together, or will
that murder everything in there? I've read a lot about people gluing
organisms TO the rock, but not actually connecting the rock at
all...any thoughts?

You can stack them, you can glue them, you can drill them
and then use long cable tie wraps to to stich them together...
Anything suits your landscaping needs. Make sure you will
be able to REMOVE rock pieces if needed, so do not
make pieces large enough to get stuck somewhere under
the center brace of the tank, etc.

Make sure you do not use any metal parts which will leak
toxins to water, also do not use glues you are not sure are not
toxix - best way is to use aquarium glues made for sal****er.

I am personally against permanent structures in the tank
so I do not glue anything together, rather interlock them
to stack rock formation in place and avoid its colapse...
The reason is I like to rearrange rocks in the tank and
also I do not like human-made glue visible in my tank.

On Sep 25, 4:13 pm, "Pszemol" wrote:
"Big Habeeb" wrote in oglegroups.com...
Thank you SO much for the response here. I have, in fact, read a
couple of books but they seem to mostly focus on the chemistry of the
tank...which is important, no doubt, but doesn't really help me figure
out how to START, which you have just helped me out here with.

Could you please provide titles/authors of books you read?

myself, I was just hoping there was an easier way to go about filling
a tank...i.e. in a 72 gallon tank, pump in 50 gallons of water from a
hose and then adjust salt content as needed...but I'm guessing that
would cause a major problem in terms of getting the sand substrate to
settle down to the bottom.

First, you do not use tap water.
You want reverse osmosis filtered water.
70 gallons tank is not that hard to fill with buckets as you might think.
Get a couple of empty Instant Ocean salt buckets - they are about
5-6 gallons each. Fill them with RO water and mix salt. Use proper
tools to make it salty enough - you will find details in any book.

About the only question you DIDNT answer was in terms of being able to
stack live rock - can you actually epoxy the stuff together, or will
that murder everything in there? I've read a lot about people gluing
organisms TO the rock, but not actually connecting the rock at
all...any thoughts?

You can stack them, you can glue them, you can drill them
and then use long cable tie wraps to to stich them together...
Anything suits your landscaping needs. Make sure you will
be able to REMOVE rock pieces if needed, so do not
make pieces large enough to get stuck somewhere under
the center brace of the tank, etc.

Make sure you do not use any metal parts which will leak
toxins to water, also do not use glues you are not sure are not
toxix - best way is to use aquarium glues made for sal****er.

I am personally against permanent structures in the tank
so I do not glue anything together, rather interlock them
to stack rock formation in place and avoid its colapse...
The reason is I like to rearrange rocks in the tank and
also I do not like human-made glue visible in my tank.

Books I read included (over the last few months)
Keeping a Reef Aquarium (Friese and Friese)
Simplified Reef Keeping (Metelsky)
Modern Coral reef aquairum (nilsen)

And no, I dont know the authors off top of my head, I happen to have
the barnes and noble online order receipt saved to my PC

"Big Habeeb" wrote in message oups.com...
Books I read included (over the last few months)
Keeping a Reef Aquarium (Friese and Friese)
Simplified Reef Keeping (Metelsky)
Modern Coral reef aquairum (nilsen)

Not bad...

I could also recomend you read this one:
"Natural Reef Aquarium" by John H. Tullock

Here is cheaper than B&N http://www.petstore.com/ps_ViewItem-...uct-BKNRA.html
Full of great ideas for a many different kind of aquariums.

And if you ever think of getting clownfish and, more importantly
sea anemones, I would consider reading following two
positions mandatory BEFORE YOU BUY THESE ANIMALS:

"Clownfishes" by Joyce D. Wilkerson

"Host Sea Anemone Secrets" by Dr. Ron Shimek

On Sep 25, 5:35 pm, "Pszemol" wrote:
"Big Habeeb" wrote in ooglegroups.com...
Books I read included (over the last few months)
Keeping a Reef Aquarium (Friese and Friese)
Simplified Reef Keeping (Metelsky)
Modern Coral reef aquairum (nilsen)

Not bad...

I could also recomend you read this one:
"Natural Reef Aquarium" by John H. Tullock

Here is cheaper than B&Nhttp://www.petstore.com/ps_ViewItem-idproduct-BKNRA.html
Full of great ideas for a many different kind of aquariums.

And if you ever think of getting clownfish and, more importantly
sea anemones, I would consider reading following two
positions mandatory BEFORE YOU BUY THESE ANIMALS:

"Clownfishes" by Joyce D. Wilkerson

"Host Sea Anemone Secrets" by Dr. Ron Shimek

I will pick them both up as I did anticipate adding a clown once the
tank was up and running. I've kept a clown before in a previous tank
but again, no reef involved so less to worry about I would guess. I
really, REALLY appreciate all the advice and will post more once I
pick up the stuff and get it setup.
Mitch

Big Habeeb wrote:
On Sep 25, 5:35 pm, "Pszemol" wrote:

"Big Habeeb" wrote in ooglegroups.com...

Books I read included (over the last few months)
Keeping a Reef Aquarium (Friese and Friese)
Simplified Reef Keeping (Metelsky)
Modern Coral reef aquairum (nilsen)

Not bad...

I could also recomend you read this one:
"Natural Reef Aquarium" by John H. Tullock

Here is cheaper than B&Nhttp://www.petstore.com/ps_ViewItem-idproduct-BKNRA.html
Full of great ideas for a many different kind of aquariums.

And if you ever think of getting clownfish and, more importantly
sea anemones, I would consider reading following two
positions mandatory BEFORE YOU BUY THESE ANIMALS:

"Clownfishes" by Joyce D. Wilkerson

"Host Sea Anemone Secrets" by Dr. Ron Shimek


I will pick them both up as I did anticipate adding a clown once the
tank was up and running. I've kept a clown before in a previous tank
but again, no reef involved so less to worry about I would guess. I
really, REALLY appreciate all the advice and will post more once I
pick up the stuff and get it setup.
Mitch


Both the Tullock and the Wilkerson books are excellent.....I read the
Tullock before I even ventured into my still early experience in keeping
a reef tank....

With respect to mixing the water - only use RO water or RO/DI if you can
get it.....when I set up my tank(s) I used plain coral sand substrate
and mixed the salt, minerals, buffer etc within the tank - taking
advantage of there being no living creature and the heater and the pumps
etc to provide the circulation to get the stuff mixed.....I ran the tank
empty for a week to ensure everything had dissolved (including hand
stirrings as there was nothing to pollute in the tank).....Once I was
happy that the salt mix, pH, buffer and calcium content was OK I then
added live rock......forget live sand as your live rock will populate
your sand itself.......this then had to be left to ensure that there was
no further residual die off from it being imported.......you will often
find LR described as cured but give it a good sniff - if it smells of
anything other than clean sea water you will need to cure it further
yourself (not a great issue unless you are impatient).....leave the LR
in the tank for 1-2 weeks and test for ammonia and nitrites - if there
is any die off then you will get a spike.....the LR will act as in the
same way as a freshwater filter system bacteria and will deal with this
but you have to give it time - it is still cycling.....Personally, once
I got zero readings on nitrites I then went for some clean up crew -
snails, hermits etc.....in my little Nano tank I had to provide
additional food for them for the first week or so......then I started
with some of the easier corals.....mushrooms, buttons
etc.......eventually after 3 months I started to add the fish.....

Now, I am very new to all of this (only set up my first tank a year
ago), and like you am from a freshwater background so had to unlearn
certain things (like cleaning substrate)......I chose to initially try a
15 gall Nano tank as an experiment - it was a hotch potch tank and I
moved all but the hermits and the clowns and live rock out once heat
became an issue but by that time I was addicted and had a tank to move
them to.....but it was a great way to learn....the FOWLR Nano tank is
still very cute but hard to maintain....

Gill

If you are going to do a reef tank, I would
recommend frilly mushrooms over anemones, as they
can take the abuse of the fish better, and they
don't move around like anemones do.

Also for your question about pumping water,
mag-drive pumps work great for this.

Wayne Sallee


Big Habeeb wrote on 9/25/2007 5:41 PM:
On Sep 25, 5:35 pm, "Pszemol" wrote:
"Big Habeeb" wrote in ooglegroups.com...
Books I read included (over the last few months)
Keeping a Reef Aquarium (Friese and Friese)
Simplified Reef Keeping (Metelsky)
Modern Coral reef aquairum (nilsen)
Not bad...

I could also recomend you read this one:
"Natural Reef Aquarium" by John H. Tullock

Here is cheaper than B&Nhttp://www.petstore.com/ps_ViewItem-idproduct-BKNRA.html
Full of great ideas for a many different kind of aquariums.

And if you ever think of getting clownfish and, more importantly
sea anemones, I would consider reading following two
positions mandatory BEFORE YOU BUY THESE ANIMALS:

"Clownfishes" by Joyce D. Wilkerson

"Host Sea Anemone Secrets" by Dr. Ron Shimek

I will pick them both up as I did anticipate adding a clown once the
tank was up and running. I've kept a clown before in a previous tank
but again, no reef involved so less to worry about I would guess. I
really, REALLY appreciate all the advice and will post more once I
pick up the stuff and get it setup.
Mitch

Big Habeeb wrote:

What is first? Can live rock survive out of water for awhile?

For a short while, yes. Live rock is typically shipped damp, frequently wrapped
in wet newspaper. You can certainly set it up in the tank and then fill the tank
with salt water. The best results would be to use seasoned salt water, so the
way I would go is to fill the tank about 3/4 or 2/3 full, allow the water to
circulate in the tank for a few days, and then add the rock, removing water if
necessary.

Can it survive in fresh water for awhile?

No.

How does one
attach the live rock to each other? Do I just stack it or can it be
glued, as I've read of doing with other corals to attach TO the live
rock...

I've read of people gluing pieces of live rock together with marine epoxy, but I
just stacked mine. Some of the smaller pieces will shift when I'm cleaning the
tank, but most of my stuff is large enough to stay put. I deliberately bought
large chunks of rock, but I have a 125 gallon. Smaller tanks generally take
smaller rock.

I'm assuming that I need a sand substrate first and I've
heard this referred to as "live sand"...

You probably don't need live sand if you have plenty of live rock. Regular
agronite sand will do in that case. Other types of sand work well also. It's
usually best to get the rock situated in the tank first, and then add the sand.
Do it the other way 'round, and some of your fish may cause rockslides by
digging in the sand. About an inch will do, unless you intend to buy medium to
large wrasses.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

On Sep 25, 8:22 pm, George Patterson wrote:
Big Habeeb wrote:
What is first? Can live rock survive out of water for awhile?

For a short while, yes. Live rock is typically shipped damp, frequently wrapped
in wet newspaper. You can certainly set it up in the tank and then fill the tank
with salt water. The best results would be to use seasoned salt water, so the
way I would go is to fill the tank about 3/4 or 2/3 full, allow the water to
circulate in the tank for a few days, and then add the rock, removing water if
necessary.

Can it survive in fresh water for awhile?

No.

How does one
attach the live rock to each other? Do I just stack it or can it be
glued, as I've read of doing with other corals to attach TO the live
rock...

I've read of people gluing pieces of live rock together with marine epoxy, but I
just stacked mine. Some of the smaller pieces will shift when I'm cleaning the
tank, but most of my stuff is large enough to stay put. I deliberately bought
large chunks of rock, but I have a 125 gallon. Smaller tanks generally take
smaller rock.

I'm assuming that I need a sand substrate first and I've

heard this referred to as "live sand"...

You probably don't need live sand if you have plenty of live rock. Regular
agronite sand will do in that case. Other types of sand work well also. It's
usually best to get the rock situated in the tank first, and then add the sand.
Do it the other way 'round, and some of your fish may cause rockslides by
digging in the sand. About an inch will do, unless you intend to buy medium to
large wrasses.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

Well, my guess then is that my setup will go as follows: start doing
the r/o job to the water tonight so that I have a good 50 gallons
ready to roll (I bought a cheap r/o unit...35 gallons per 24 hours I
believe was the rating)...then it'll have time to stand with the salt
in it before I really get started on Saturday, at which point I'll put
down the sand (NOT live, home depot stuff), then add the water and
start up the filtration and heating process. I'll let it stay just
like that for a solid week or so before I even CONSIDER doing anything
else.
Does that sound about right?
Mitch

Big Habeeb wrote on Tue, 25 Sep 2007:
On Sep 25, 5:35 pm, "Pszemol" wrote:
And if you ever think of getting clownfish and, more importantly sea
anemones, I would consider reading following two positions mandatory
BEFORE YOU BUY THESE ANIMALS:
"Clownfishes" by Joyce D. Wilkerson
"Host Sea Anemone Secrets" by Dr. Ron Shimek

I will pick them both up as I did anticipate adding a clown once the
tank was up and running. I've kept a clown before in a previous tank
but again, no reef involved so less to worry about I would guess.

Clowns are some of the easiest sal****er fish to keep. Swim out in the open
water, friendly, come up to the surface to feed. The main thing you have to
worry about with clowns is the number and species interaction; if you're going
to get more than one clown, you should read up on them to understand what
combinations work together and what don't. But if you only get a single clown,
it's hard for much to go wrong.

The problem is that a lot of people have heard about the clownfish-sea anemone
symbiosis. And it's true that, in the wild, you never find clowns without
a host sea anemone (or vis versa, actually). So some people assume that if
they want clowns, they have to get a sea anemone too.

And that's when the problems start. While clowns may be one of the easiest
fish for a novice aquarist to keep, sea anemones can be one of the most
challenging. A novice should never start with a sea anemone as one of his
first living sea creatures to care for.

Fortunately, clowns do just fine in tanks with no sea anemones. So get the
clowns -- but hold off on the sea anemones.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
--------- if you cut here, you'll probably destroy your monitor ----------