Need feedback on this paper

I am sorry I have to post like this but for some reason it won't post as a
new message...
Friday, October 05, 2007

The role of nitrates in a sal****er aquarium
By ???-????



Over the years, I've found a great amount of information regarding the role
that nitrates (NO3-) play in sal****er systems. The majority of the
information available tends to be confusing and inconclusive with respects
to the level of danger this compound represents to a healthy sal****er
aquarium. Much of this information characterize nitrates as a toxic,
unwanted and dangerous compound that should be brought down to zero in most
cases and recommends to the fact that "high" levels of nitrates are
extremely dangerous to the fish. While I agree with this basic assumption,
the information that follows will clarify some facts regarding this compound
and represents it as an unwanted byproduct of a healthy system that should
be kept to a minimum but should not be a catalyst of drastic actions.



Where do nitrates come from?



Nitrogen enters your system in one of two ways. The first and most
important is in the form of food you give to your fish. The second and
extremely less important is by gaseous exchange between water and air. The
latter is very hard to achieve and could be considered negligible to our
analysis.



Once your fish ingests food, it utilizes its nutrients for metabolic
processes, to increase or replace body mass and/or to store as fat for later
use. The amount of nitrogen that is not employed for either of these
purposes is excreted back to the system.



By the time the organism's metabolism is done with the food, most of the
nitrogen had been transformed to ammonia (NH3). In the form of waste is how
we see the majority of the nitrogen thrown into your system together with
other compounds like phosphates. At this point, a process known as
nitrification starts transforming the now very toxic ammonia to other forms
of nitrogen compounds.



A group of bacteria known as nitrifying bacteria is responsible for these
transformations. The first group of these bacteria is known as nitrosifyers
(ammonia-oxidizing bacteria). These bacteria transform ammonia into
nitrites (NO2-) as follows;



NH3 + O2 + 2e- + 2H+ ? NH2OH + H2O

NH2OH + H2O + 1/2 O2 ? NO2- +2 H2O + H+



Nitrites are still a very toxic compound and can cause serious damage to
your system. Once there is enough nitrite to work on, a second group of
bacteria called nitrifying bacteria (nitrite-oxidizing, nitrate producing
bacteria) enters the now advanced nitrogen "cycle" and oxidizes even further
the nitrites turning them to nitrates as follows;



NO2- + 1/2 O2 ? NO3-



Once the nitrogen cycle has changed nitrites to nitrates it enters the food
chain. The nitrates are very useful compounds for plants. It is here that
the Nitrogen Cycle fails in the aquarium. Nitrates are supposed to be
absorbed by plants and turned into animal matter by herbivores which in turn
get utilized by carnivores completing the food chain and starting the cycle
ones again.



If there isn't a complete food chain in a system, the nitrogen cycle turns
from a cycle to a "one way highway". In other words, food is turned to
ammonia by your fish; ammonia is then turned to nitrites by the nitrosifyers
which are turned to nitrates by the nitrifyers. The end result is lots of
nitrates.



Are high amounts of nitrates a sign that the nitrogen "cycle" isn't working?



The answer to this question is no if; the levels of ammonia and nitrites are
at or near zero. What this mean is that your nitrifying bacteria is working
by oxidizing first ammonia and then the nitrites. The toxicity of nitrates
is not an immediate menace to your tank and can be removed from your system.



The following figure exemplifies the nitrogen "highway" in your tank;





Figure 1 Nitrogen Cycle in your tank. As you can see, nitrogen is not
recycled but has an input and an output. The preferred output is the
harvest of plants but the most common known output is by means of water
changes.



In the previous diagram (Figure 1) it is also seen that when
nitrates are absorbed by the herbivores in your tank, they don't get
extracted, they are returned to the tank in the form of excrement which
contains lots of toxic ammonia. Algae eating organisms can incorporate a
certain amount of nitrates but not enough, the surplus is sent back to your
system. Alright, they may help you keep the tank pretty but also contribute
to increasing the amounts of ammonia in your system. This may come as a
shock to many aquarists under the impression that snails and blennies were a
good way to control algae in your tank. But, as I show in figure 1, they
augment the accumulation of ammonia thus the levels of nitrites and
nitrates.



In a healthy aquarium an aquarist should ensure that the amount
of ammonia and nitrites are kept at or near zero. This will confirm that
the part of the nitrogen cycle that takes place inside your tank is working.
Now we have the difficult task of removing the unwanted nitrates. If the
levels of nitrates reach a certain level, your nitrifyers aren't able to
turn nitrites to nitrates do to saturation. This starts a chain reaction
where the nitrites reach a level of saturation that will kill your organisms
and then your nitrosifyers can't convert ammonia to nitrites. When this
happens you no longer have a system. At this moment, high levels of
nitrites will have destroyed the organisms in your tank.



What is a sustainable level of nitrates in an aquarium?



Let's make something clear, nitrates are toxic and they should
be kept as low as possible. Any conventional aquarist will recommend a
series of water changes to reduce or eliminate nitrates. Other than that,
they will refer you to buy nitrate reducing chemicals. I have a different
approach. In many scientific papers is mentioned that nitrates are toxic at
levels near 100 milligrams per liter, one paper says that at a level of
1,000 milligrams per liter it will cause the death of your fish. I
recommend a level of less than 50 milligrams per liter although my tanks had
remained near 70 for a prolonged time with no drastic effects to my fish.



The best way to remove nitrates is to know the carrying capacity
of your tank. What this means is to have the knowledge of how many fish and
other organisms your tank can support before nitrates become a nuisance.
Another great thing to know is the amount of food your fish need daily. If
you can control the intake of nitrogen (food), you've won the first battle
against nitrates. Should you want to increase the number of fish in your
tank then you have to implement my approach. By growing plants in your tank
and harvesting them regularly you are not only creating a better environment
in your tank, you are also extracting living material that contains nitrogen
absorbed from the water by these plants, NITRATES. Not only are you
removing nitrogen from your system but also phosphates and other toxic
compounds that are absorbed by these plants. I check my parameters
biweekly, in order to have a controlled system, the amount of plants removed
must match the amount of food added.



I do not encourage water changes. This measure is needed but
for other reasons and should be kept to a minimum. Adding chemicals to
minimize the levels of nitrates in your system may also contribute to
increase nitrites and ammonia not to mention the destabilizing effects on
other needed chemical reactions happening inside your tank.



To conclude this paper I will like to summarize my findings by
mentioning key aspects of a healthy sal****er aquarium;



Ø The level of ammonia should be kept at or near zero

o This means that your nitrosifyers are doing fine

Ø The level of nitrites should also be kept at or near zero

o This means that your nitrifyers are doing fine

Ø The level of nitrates should be kept to less than 50 milligrams per
liter

o This means that there is room for your nitrifyers to work

Ø Feed as less food as possible to your fish

Ø Grow as much algae and other plants in your tank

Ø When doing water changes, keep it to small amounts (10%)

Ø Don't overcrowd your tank with fish

Ø DO NOT USE CHEMICALS TO LOWER NITRATES

Ø Remember, keeping low levels of ammonia and nitrites is more
important than lowering the levels of nitrates



I hope this paper is useful to new aquarists and maybe to
advanced ones who didn't understand or were misguided on this complicated
cycle. Many local fish stores (LFS) will completely disagree with my views
but that is expected. They make lots of money by selling pre-mixed
sal****er, chemicals and other quick fix solutions to the nitrates problem.
Some even portrait nitrates as the real menace to your tank and scare
clients to a point that they invest thousands of dollars in their gadgets.
It is a win/win situation for them and a severe loss to the aquarist. If
you have to do water changes more than once every six months (some even
weekly): you can toss all your gadgets away because they are not working.



Yours truly;

???-????











--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





--
Visit www.guayni.com

Guayni; SAHS wrote:
I am sorry I have to post like this but for some reason it won't post as a
new message...

Seems to be written well enough. I think you need either a reference to a follow
up article that explains how to get nitrates out of a marine tank or you need
references to existing articles that do this.

Your talk about LFSs arguing with you is spurious. Someone who has a refugium is
in a position to add plant matter, and most LFSs will not argue about that. What
you don't seem to understand is that the vast majority of their customers are
not in a position to keep a refugium, and they must cater to the majority. You
need to do this too. Talk about encouraging algae is also ridiculous, since the
vast majority of us prefer to SEE our fish. "Harvesting" algae is also very
problematical for most of us.

In short, I think you should remove comments about LFSs arguing with you. You
should mention the fact that keeping plants requires something like a refugium.
Finally, you should have an entire paragraph that describes how to go about
encouraging and removing algae. And make sure you come up with good method; hair
algae blooms are not acceptable. Neither is having the front glass covered up
half the time.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

On Oct 6, 10:34 pm, George Patterson wrote:
Guayni; SAHS wrote:
I am sorry I have to post like this but for some reason it won't post as a
new message...

Seems to be written well enough. I think you need either a reference to a follow
up article that explains how to get nitrates out of a marine tank or you need
references to existing articles that do this.

Your talk about LFSs arguing with you is spurious. Someone who has a refugium is
in a position to add plant matter, and most LFSs will not argue about that. What
you don't seem to understand is that the vast majority of their customers are
not in a position to keep a refugium, and they must cater to the majority. You
need to do this too. Talk about encouraging algae is also ridiculous, since the
vast majority of us prefer to SEE our fish. "Harvesting" algae is also very
problematical for most of us.

In short, I think you should remove comments about LFSs arguing with you. You
should mention the fact that keeping plants requires something like a refugium.
Finally, you should have an entire paragraph that describes how to go about
encouraging and removing algae. And make sure you come up with good method; hair
algae blooms are not acceptable. Neither is having the front glass covered up
half the time.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

For what Guayni is supposed to be I think he would have aready known
that! He is afterall the proponenet that stated that you do not need
to do water changes and that he had a method to utilize his same old
water over and over without need of skimmers or changes........or
additional filtering.........and it tested out at 0-ammonia, 0-nitrite
and barely a trace of nitrates.

"Guayni; SAHS" wrote in message ...
Over the years, I've found a great amount of information regarding the role
that nitrates (NO3-) play in sal****er systems. The majority of the
information available tends to be confusing and inconclusive with respects
to the level of danger this compound represents to a healthy sal****er
aquarium. Much of this information characterize nitrates as a toxic,
unwanted and dangerous compound that should be brought down to zero in most
cases and recommends to the fact that "high" levels of nitrates are
extremely dangerous to the fish.

Jaime, could you produce any examples of such information about reef tanks?
I am reading hobbyist literature for years and did not find ONE
which states that nitrates are "extremely dangerous" to the fish...

What I read frequently is that elevated nitrates are causing
nuisance algae blooms, which are not tolerated in reef tanks.

While I agree with this basic assumption,
the information that follows will clarify some facts regarding this compound
and represents it as an unwanted byproduct of a healthy system that should
be kept to a minimum but should not be a catalyst of drastic actions.

Thes is nothing different than what can by read in hobbyist literature.

Where do nitrates come from?

Nitrogen enters your system in one of two ways. The first and most
important is in the form of food you give to your fish. The second and
extremely less important is by gaseous exchange between water and air. The
latter is very hard to achieve and could be considered negligible to our
analysis.

Well, in a fish tank overrun by cyanobacteria this way of nitrogen
intake seems to be quite significant. Do you have any scientific
data to back up the claim this way of nitrogen intake is negligible?

Once the nitrogen cycle has changed nitrites to nitrates it enters the food
chain. The nitrates are very useful compounds for plants. It is here that
the Nitrogen Cycle fails in the aquarium. Nitrates are supposed to be
absorbed by plants and turned into animal matter by herbivores which in turn
get utilized by carnivores completing the food chain and starting the cycle
ones again.

Most healthy reef tanks create closed circle of nitrogen already
by utilizing algae scrubers, lit refugiums with tons of macroalgae
and this biomass is exported by mechanical harvesting of algae.

Are high amounts of nitrates a sign that the nitrogen "cycle" isn't working?

The answer to this question is no if; the levels of ammonia and nitrites are
at or near zero. What this mean is that your nitrifying bacteria is working
by oxidizing first ammonia and then the nitrites. The toxicity of nitrates
is not an immediate menace to your tank and can be removed from your system.

This makes no sense at all. The question was "are high nitrates a sing?"
and your answer was "no, if the levels are low". How silly is that?

I would suggest a better indicator of the not working nitrogen cycle:
If nitrates level IS RISING than your cicle is not fully closed...
It simply means that nitrogen intake is not balanced with nitrogen export.

The following figure exemplifies the nitrogen "highway" in your tank;

Figure 1 Nitrogen Cycle in your tank. As you can see, nitrogen is not
recycled but has an input and an output. The preferred output is the
harvest of plants but the most common known output is by means of water
changes.

Is this article posted on your website http://www.guayni.com?
Figures are not visible here.
By the way - I visited your website and I cannot find the table with
the data from the NO3/PO4 measurements in your tank... The values
I remember from my last visit were at or above 100mg/l. How is the
situation now? Can you post some current readings or current tank photos?

In the previous diagram (Figure 1) it is also seen that when
nitrates are absorbed by the herbivores in your tank, they don't get
extracted, they are returned to the tank in the form of excrement which
contains lots of toxic ammonia. Algae eating organisms can incorporate a
certain amount of nitrates but not enough, the surplus is sent back to your
system. Alright, they may help you keep the tank pretty but also contribute
to increasing the amounts of ammonia in your system. This may come as a
shock to many aquarists under the impression that snails and blennies were a
good way to control algae in your tank. But, as I show in figure 1, they
augment the accumulation of ammonia thus the levels of nitrites and
nitrates.

Here is a flaw in your reasoning:
Snails and blennies cannot contribute to the nitrogen intake since
they do not acquire nitrogen from the outside of the tank...
They just process nitrogen which is already in the tank and use it
partially to build their body tissues and produce eggs/fry which can
be consumed in turn by other fish and corals in the tank...
Effectively they HELP lower down nitrates by incorporating it in
their bodies.

In a healthy aquarium an aquarist should ensure that the amount
of ammonia and nitrites are kept at or near zero. This will confirm that
the part of the nitrogen cycle that takes place inside your tank is working.
Now we have the difficult task of removing the unwanted nitrates. If the
levels of nitrates reach a certain level, your nitrifyers aren't able to
turn nitrites to nitrates do to saturation. This starts a chain reaction
where the nitrites reach a level of saturation that will kill your organisms
and then your nitrosifyers can't convert ammonia to nitrites. When this
happens you no longer have a system. At this moment, high levels of
nitrites will have destroyed the organisms in your tank.

What is the saturation level of nitrates in the sal****er expressed in mg/l?

What is a sustainable level of nitrates in an aquarium?

Let's make something clear, nitrates are toxic and they should
be kept as low as possible.

Did not you said at the beginnig of your wire up that similar claims made
in hobbyist literature are "confusing"? You do not say anything different.

Any conventional aquarist will recommend a
series of water changes to reduce or eliminate nitrates.

This is the fastest, cheapest and easiest method of dealing with
excess of nitrates when long term solution is not in place yet.
If you have a reef tank poluted with 100mg/l of nitrates there
is no other method of bringing nitrates down to 5mg/l faster
and cheaper than a water change. When your nitrates are brought
down to 5mg/l then you can work on a long term solution and
balancing nitrogen intake with nitrogen export...

Other than that,
they will refer you to buy nitrate reducing chemicals. I have a different
approach. In many scientific papers is mentioned that nitrates are toxic at
levels near 100 milligrams per liter, one paper says that at a level of
1,000 milligrams per liter it will cause the death of your fish. I
recommend a level of less than 50 milligrams per liter although my tanks had
remained near 70 for a prolonged time with no drastic effects to my fish.

Could you post a healthy looking reef tank pictures with
long term exposure to nitrates levels ranging 50-70mg/l?
I would risk a statement such pictures will be impossible to find.

The best way to remove nitrates is to know the carrying capacity
of your tank. What this means is to have the knowledge of how many fish and
other organisms your tank can support before nitrates become a nuisance.
Another great thing to know is the amount of food your fish need daily. If
you can control the intake of nitrogen (food), you've won the first battle
against nitrates. Should you want to increase the number of fish in your
tank then you have to implement my approach. By growing plants in your tank
and harvesting them regularly you are not only creating a better environment
in your tank, you are also extracting living material that contains nitrogen
absorbed from the water by these plants, NITRATES. Not only are you
removing nitrogen from your system but also phosphates and other toxic
compounds that are absorbed by these plants. I check my parameters
biweekly, in order to have a controlled system, the amount of plants removed
must match the amount of food added.

What you just said is nothing revolutionary. It is practiced FOR YEARS
by many hobbyists keeping beautiful reef tanks with low nitrates...

To conclude this paper I will like to summarize my findings by
mentioning key aspects of a healthy sal****er aquarium;



Ø The level of ammonia should be kept at or near zero

o This means that your nitrosifyers are doing fine

Done with no problems in any tank.

Ø The level of nitrites should also be kept at or near zero

o This means that your nitrifyers are doing fine

Done with no problems in any tank.

Ø The level of nitrates should be kept to less than 50 milligrams
per liter

o This means that there is room for your nitrifyers to work

Done with no problems in any tank.

Ø Feed as less food as possible to your fish

How to prevent malnutrition of fish or starvation with this advice?

Ø Grow as much algae and other plants in your tank

Plants make water yellow... How to deal with this issue?

Ø When doing water changes, keep it to small amounts (10%)

What is the purpose of 10% water change and how often should I do it?

Ø Don't overcrowd your tank with fish

How practicaly can you tell the tank is overcrowded or not?

Ø Remember, keeping low levels of ammonia and nitrites is more
important than lowering the levels of nitrates

Who has problems with elevated levels of ammonia/nitrites in their mature tanks?
This problem DOES NOT EXIST!

I hope this paper is useful to new aquarists and maybe to
advanced ones who didn't understand or were misguided on this complicated
cycle. Many local fish stores (LFS) will completely disagree with my views
but that is expected. They make lots of money by selling pre-mixed
sal****er, chemicals and other quick fix solutions to the nitrates problem.
Some even portrait nitrates as the real menace to your tank and scare
clients to a point that they invest thousands of dollars in their gadgets.
It is a win/win situation for them and a severe loss to the aquarist. If
you have to do water changes more than once every six months (some even
weekly): you can toss all your gadgets away because they are not working.

Once again: what purpose does 10% water change every 6 months serve?

Yours truly;

Jaime Rivera Sierra, who was trying to patent and sell expenssive gizmo
filter for our tanks and posted about this filter here on this group
not so long time ago :-) Check out what he wrote in the past:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...3482dfe1c4abd0
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...50df0777f9095e
His "experience" is with one fish-only tank, 7 fish (not reef) and this is his
whole fish tank keeping experience. His tank is full of ugly algae and
very high nitrates @ 100mg/l. He claims to be in possition to paten a magical
filter (gizmo?) which lets you avoid water changes at all...

"Guayni; SAHS" wrote on Sat, 6 Oct 2007 :
I recommend a level of less than 50 milligrams per liter although my tanks
had remained near 70 for a prolonged time with no drastic effects to my
fish.

You need to distinguish "fish-only" sal****er tanks, from reef tanks that
include corals. (Especially since you've posted this to r.a.marine.reefs,
a newsgroup specializing in reef tanks.)

Are you really recommending that 70mg/l for prolonged periods will be fine
in a reef tank? That, in your opinion, corals will show no drastic effects,
along with fish?

If that's what you mean, then you need to back it up. If it isn't what you
mean, then you've written very poorly. Or else your post is completely off
topic in this newsgroup.

I do not encourage water changes.

Why? Do you have anything to offer here except your random opinion?

This measure is needed but for other reasons and should be kept to a
minimum.

You don't encourage it, but yet it is needed anyway? Why is it needed? Why
don't you encourage it?

To conclude this paper I will like to summarize my findings by mentioning
key aspects of a healthy sal****er aquarium;

By "sal****er", you mean "fish-only", right? In a reef newsgroup, you ought
to mention directly that your writings aren't relevant.

Ø The level of nitrates should be kept to less than 50 milligrams per
liter

Fish-only? Or reef?

Ø When doing water changes, keep it to small amounts (10%)

Please justify.

10% every six months? In a reef tank? Really? How well are your corals
growing?

Many local fish stores (LFS) will completely disagree with my views but
that is expected. They make lots of money by selling pre-mixed sal****er,
chemicals and other quick fix solutions to the nitrates problem. Some even
portrait nitrates as the real menace to your tank and scare clients to a
point that they invest thousands of dollars in their gadgets. It is a
win/win situation for them and a severe loss to the aquarist.

Yeah. Or, maybe, they're offering advice to reef keepers, and you're the
only one interested in a fish-only tank.

If you have to do water changes more than once every six months (some even
weekly): you can toss all your gadgets away because they are not working.

Again, are you able to rapidly grow stony corals with only a 10% water change
every six months? I'd love to do that. Please describe your entire system.
Such small and few water changes don't seem to work for anyone else trying to
grow corals. What's your secret?

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
I hope you won't let my superiority come between us. -- Despair.com

"Don Geddis" wrote in message ...
"Guayni; SAHS" wrote on Sat, 6 Oct 2007 :
I recommend a level of less than 50 milligrams per liter although my tanks
had remained near 70 for a prolonged time with no drastic effects to my
fish.

You need to distinguish "fish-only" sal****er tanks, from reef tanks that
include corals. (Especially since you've posted this to r.a.marine.reefs,
a newsgroup specializing in reef tanks.)

Are you really recommending that 70mg/l for prolonged periods will be fine
in a reef tank? That, in your opinion, corals will show no drastic effects,
along with fish?

If that's what you mean, then you need to back it up. If it isn't what you
mean, then you've written very poorly. Or else your post is completely off
topic in this newsgroup.

He does not really know what a reef tank is.
He has never owned one in his life.
The single tank he has oned was a fish only tank with 7 fish.

This argument was used against him long time ago and
then he added Xenia to his tank to "make it a reef tank".
The future health of this Xenia coral is knot known, but
in 100mg/l nitrates and standard fluorescent bulbs its fate
was quite easy to predict to all of us discussing with Jaime...

I do not encourage water changes.

Why? Do you have anything to offer here except your random opinion?

He has his own tank, with magical filter which he wanted to patent :-)

This measure is needed but for other reasons and should be kept to a
minimum.

You don't encourage it, but yet it is needed anyway?
Why is it needed? Why don't you encourage it?

When I asked him similar questions long time ago he
concluded that I want to know too much about his filter
he wants to patent and I should not ask too many question.

Ø When doing water changes, keep it to small amounts (10%)

Please justify.

10% every six months? In a reef tank? Really?
How well are your corals growing?

Jaime, would you care to post some picture with close ups
on your corals? :-)))

If you have to do water changes more than once every six months (some even
weekly): you can toss all your gadgets away because they are not working.

Again, are you able to rapidly grow stony corals with only a 10% water change
every six months? I'd love to do that. Please describe your entire system.
Such small and few water changes don't seem to work for anyone else trying to
grow corals. What's your secret?

He cannot tell you :-) He will "soon" patent his filter and then we will know ;-)

On Oct 7, 6:33 pm, "Pszemol" wrote:
"Don Geddis" wrote in ...
"Guayni; SAHS" wrote on Sat, 6 Oct 2007 :
I recommend a level of less than 50 milligrams per liter although my tanks
had remained near 70 for a prolonged time with no drastic effects to my
fish.

You need to distinguish "fish-only" sal****er tanks, from reef tanks that
include corals. (Especially since you've posted this to r.a.marine.reefs,
a newsgroup specializing in reef tanks.)

Are you really recommending that 70mg/l for prolonged periods will be fine
in a reef tank? That, in your opinion, corals will show no drastic effects,
along with fish?

If that's what you mean, then you need to back it up. If it isn't what you
mean, then you've written very poorly. Or else your post is completely off
topic in this newsgroup.

He does not really know what a reef tank is.
He has never owned one in his life.
The single tank he has oned was a fish only tank with 7 fish.

This argument was used against him long time ago and
then he added Xenia to his tank to "make it a reef tank".
The future health of this Xenia coral is knot known, but
in 100mg/l nitrates and standard fluorescent bulbs its fate
was quite easy to predict to all of us discussing with Jaime...

I do not encourage water changes.

Why? Do you have anything to offer here except your random opinion?

He has his own tank, with magical filter which he wanted to patent :-)

This measure is needed but for other reasons and should be kept to a
minimum.

You don't encourage it, but yet it is needed anyway?
Why is it needed? Why don't you encourage it?

When I asked him similar questions long time ago he
concluded that I want to know too much about his filter
he wants to patent and I should not ask too many question.

Ø When doing water changes, keep it to small amounts (10%)

Please justify.

10% every six months? In a reef tank? Really?
How well are your corals growing?

Jaime, would you care to post some picture with close ups
on your corals? :-)))

If you have to do water changes more than once every six months (some even
weekly): you can toss all your gadgets away because they are not working.

Again, are you able to rapidly grow stony corals with only a 10% water change
every six months? I'd love to do that. Please describe your entire system.
Such small and few water changes don't seem to work for anyone else trying to
grow corals. What's your secret?

He cannot tell you :-) He will "soon" patent his filter and then we will know ;-)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
He can't tell you because he has no filter to patent either. bi annual
water changes.LMFAO. I would hate to mentin that in any online forums
even if it was a fish only group as you would be flamed to no end.
BTW, Jamie, is your nane IIRC, did you graduate to obtain that
biologist title or did you get it through Ebay, and all it needed was
a bit of white out applied and a new name typed in ? Its been well
over a year since he was getting ready to patent that filter from what
I recall.

I appreciate your comments and am going to make appropriate changes. As
follows...

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:5tYNi.162$8F.146@trnddc05...
Guayni; SAHS wrote:
I am sorry I have to post like this but for some reason it won't post as
a
new message...

Seems to be written well enough. I think you need either a reference to a
follow up article that explains how to get nitrates out of a marine tank
or you need references to existing articles that do this.

I didn't include my references awaiting for feedback. Now I know which
remark needs a reference, I will post them!


Your talk about LFSs arguing with you is spurious. Someone who has a
refugium is in a position to add plant matter, and most LFSs will not
argue about that. What you don't seem to understand is that the vast
majority of their customers are not in a position to keep a refugium, and
they must cater to the majority. You need to do this too. Talk about
encouraging algae is also ridiculous, since the vast majority of us prefer
to SEE our fish. "Harvesting" algae is also very problematical for most of
us.

I meant algae that will go along your tankscape. I encourage the growth of
algae that blends in with your tank. I have algae growing in my refugium
also in a compartment under the lights in a secluded place, easy to harvest.


In short, I think you should remove comments about LFSs arguing with you.
You should mention the fact that keeping plants requires something like a
refugium. Finally, you should have an entire paragraph that describes how
to go about encouraging and removing algae. And make sure you come up with
good method; hair algae blooms are not acceptable. Neither is having the
front glass covered up half the time.

I understand what you are saying and after reading your post, have to accept
that my experience shouldn't have played a role in my paper. I will remove
the comments...


George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

"TSJ" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 6, 10:34 pm, George Patterson wrote:
Guayni; SAHS wrote:
I am sorry I have to post like this but for some reason it won't post
as a
new message...

Seems to be written well enough. I think you need either a reference to a
follow
up article that explains how to get nitrates out of a marine tank or you
need
references to existing articles that do this.

Your talk about LFSs arguing with you is spurious. Someone who has a
refugium is
in a position to add plant matter, and most LFSs will not argue about
that. What
you don't seem to understand is that the vast majority of their customers
are
not in a position to keep a refugium, and they must cater to the
majority. You
need to do this too. Talk about encouraging algae is also ridiculous,
since the
vast majority of us prefer to SEE our fish. "Harvesting" algae is also
very
problematical for most of us.

In short, I think you should remove comments about LFSs arguing with you.
You
should mention the fact that keeping plants requires something like a
refugium.
Finally, you should have an entire paragraph that describes how to go
about
encouraging and removing algae. And make sure you come up with good
method; hair
algae blooms are not acceptable. Neither is having the front glass
covered up
half the time.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

For what Guayni is supposed to be I think he would have aready known
that! He is afterall the proponenet that stated that you do not need
to do water changes and that he had a method to utilize his same old
water over and over without need of skimmers or changes........or
additional filtering.........and it tested out at 0-ammonia, 0-nitrite
and barely a trace of nitrates.


I'll like to clarify that I never said that a skimmer is not needed.
Actually, I am making one now.

It wasn't clear weather you meant that I discourage the water changes and
who's tank has a trace of nitrates, yours or mine?

I discourage water changes but find them necessary as a quick fix.

As for nitrates, my tank today read 70 on nitrates, this is my benchmark to
do a water change buy I am not to worried about it, NH3 and NO2- are down to
zero. Last water change was back in April, if it wasn't because my feeder
fell in the tank I could have waited until November.

G

"Pszemol" wrote in message
...
"Guayni; SAHS" wrote in message
...
Over the years, I've found a great amount of information regarding the
role
that nitrates (NO3-) play in sal****er systems. The majority of the
information available tends to be confusing and inconclusive with
respects
to the level of danger this compound represents to a healthy sal****er
aquarium. Much of this information characterize nitrates as a toxic,
unwanted and dangerous compound that should be brought down to zero in
most
cases and recommends to the fact that "high" levels of nitrates are
extremely dangerous to the fish.

Jaime, could you produce any examples of such information about reef
tanks?
I am reading hobbyist literature for years and did not find ONE
which states that nitrates are "extremely dangerous" to the fish...

What I read frequently is that elevated nitrates are causing
nuisance algae blooms, which are not tolerated in reef tanks.

While I agree with this basic assumption,
the information that follows will clarify some facts regarding this
compound
and represents it as an unwanted byproduct of a healthy system that
should
be kept to a minimum but should not be a catalyst of drastic actions.

Thes is nothing different than what can by read in hobbyist literature.

Where do nitrates come from?

Nitrogen enters your system in one of two ways. The first and most
important is in the form of food you give to your fish. The second and
extremely less important is by gaseous exchange between water and air.
The
latter is very hard to achieve and could be considered negligible to our
analysis.

Well, in a fish tank overrun by cyanobacteria this way of nitrogen
intake seems to be quite significant. Do you have any scientific
data to back up the claim this way of nitrogen intake is negligible?

Once the nitrogen cycle has changed nitrites to nitrates it enters the
food
chain. The nitrates are very useful compounds for plants. It is here
that
the Nitrogen Cycle fails in the aquarium. Nitrates are supposed to be
absorbed by plants and turned into animal matter by herbivores which in
turn
get utilized by carnivores completing the food chain and starting the
cycle
ones again.

Most healthy reef tanks create closed circle of nitrogen already
by utilizing algae scrubers, lit refugiums with tons of macroalgae
and this biomass is exported by mechanical harvesting of algae.

Are high amounts of nitrates a sign that the nitrogen "cycle" isn't
working?

The answer to this question is no if; the levels of ammonia and nitrites
are
at or near zero. What this mean is that your nitrifying bacteria is
working
by oxidizing first ammonia and then the nitrites. The toxicity of
nitrates
is not an immediate menace to your tank and can be removed from your
system.

This makes no sense at all. The question was "are high nitrates a sing?"
and your answer was "no, if the levels are low". How silly is that?

I would suggest a better indicator of the not working nitrogen cycle:
If nitrates level IS RISING than your cicle is not fully closed...
It simply means that nitrogen intake is not balanced with nitrogen export.

The following figure exemplifies the nitrogen "highway" in your tank;

Figure 1 Nitrogen Cycle in your tank. As you can see, nitrogen is not
recycled but has an input and an output. The preferred output is the
harvest of plants but the most common known output is by means of water
changes.

Is this article posted on your website http://www.guayni.com?
Figures are not visible here.
By the way - I visited your website and I cannot find the table with
the data from the NO3/PO4 measurements in your tank... The values
I remember from my last visit were at or above 100mg/l. How is the
situation now? Can you post some current readings or current tank photos?

In the previous diagram (Figure 1) it is also seen that when
nitrates are absorbed by the herbivores in your tank, they don't get
extracted, they are returned to the tank in the form of excrement which
contains lots of toxic ammonia. Algae eating organisms can incorporate a
certain amount of nitrates but not enough, the surplus is sent back to
your
system. Alright, they may help you keep the tank pretty but also
contribute
to increasing the amounts of ammonia in your system. This may come as a
shock to many aquarists under the impression that snails and blennies
were a
good way to control algae in your tank. But, as I show in figure 1, they
augment the accumulation of ammonia thus the levels of nitrites and
nitrates.

Here is a flaw in your reasoning:
Snails and blennies cannot contribute to the nitrogen intake since
they do not acquire nitrogen from the outside of the tank...
They just process nitrogen which is already in the tank and use it
partially to build their body tissues and produce eggs/fry which can
be consumed in turn by other fish and corals in the tank...
Effectively they HELP lower down nitrates by incorporating it in
their bodies.

In a healthy aquarium an aquarist should ensure that the
amount
of ammonia and nitrites are kept at or near zero. This will confirm that
the part of the nitrogen cycle that takes place inside your tank is
working.
Now we have the difficult task of removing the unwanted nitrates. If the
levels of nitrates reach a certain level, your nitrifyers aren't able to
turn nitrites to nitrates do to saturation. This starts a chain reaction
where the nitrites reach a level of saturation that will kill your
organisms
and then your nitrosifyers can't convert ammonia to nitrites. When this
happens you no longer have a system. At this moment, high levels of
nitrites will have destroyed the organisms in your tank.

What is the saturation level of nitrates in the sal****er expressed in
mg/l?

What is a sustainable level of nitrates in an aquarium?

Let's make something clear, nitrates are toxic and they should
be kept as low as possible.

Did not you said at the beginnig of your wire up that similar claims made
in hobbyist literature are "confusing"? You do not say anything different.

Any conventional aquarist will recommend a
series of water changes to reduce or eliminate nitrates.

This is the fastest, cheapest and easiest method of dealing with
excess of nitrates when long term solution is not in place yet.
If you have a reef tank poluted with 100mg/l of nitrates there
is no other method of bringing nitrates down to 5mg/l faster
and cheaper than a water change. When your nitrates are brought
down to 5mg/l then you can work on a long term solution and
balancing nitrogen intake with nitrogen export...

Other than that,
they will refer you to buy nitrate reducing chemicals. I have a
different
approach. In many scientific papers is mentioned that nitrates are toxic
at
levels near 100 milligrams per liter, one paper says that at a level of
1,000 milligrams per liter it will cause the death of your fish. I
recommend a level of less than 50 milligrams per liter although my tanks
had
remained near 70 for a prolonged time with no drastic effects to my fish.

Could you post a healthy looking reef tank pictures with
long term exposure to nitrates levels ranging 50-70mg/l?
I would risk a statement such pictures will be impossible to find.

The best way to remove nitrates is to know the carrying
capacity
of your tank. What this means is to have the knowledge of how many fish
and
other organisms your tank can support before nitrates become a nuisance.
Another great thing to know is the amount of food your fish need daily.
If
you can control the intake of nitrogen (food), you've won the first
battle
against nitrates. Should you want to increase the number of fish in your
tank then you have to implement my approach. By growing plants in your
tank
and harvesting them regularly you are not only creating a better
environment
in your tank, you are also extracting living material that contains
nitrogen
absorbed from the water by these plants, NITRATES. Not only are you
removing nitrogen from your system but also phosphates and other toxic
compounds that are absorbed by these plants. I check my parameters
biweekly, in order to have a controlled system, the amount of plants
removed
must match the amount of food added.

What you just said is nothing revolutionary. It is practiced FOR YEARS
by many hobbyists keeping beautiful reef tanks with low nitrates...

To conclude this paper I will like to summarize my findings by
mentioning key aspects of a healthy sal****er aquarium;



Ø The level of ammonia should be kept at or near zero

o This means that your nitrosifyers are doing fine

Done with no problems in any tank.

Ø The level of nitrites should also be kept at or near zero

o This means that your nitrifyers are doing fine

Done with no problems in any tank.

Ø The level of nitrates should be kept to less than 50 milligrams
per liter

o This means that there is room for your nitrifyers to work

Done with no problems in any tank.

Ø Feed as less food as possible to your fish

How to prevent malnutrition of fish or starvation with this advice?

Ø Grow as much algae and other plants in your tank

Plants make water yellow... How to deal with this issue?

Ø When doing water changes, keep it to small amounts (10%)

What is the purpose of 10% water change and how often should I do it?

Ø Don't overcrowd your tank with fish

How practicaly can you tell the tank is overcrowded or not?

Ø Remember, keeping low levels of ammonia and nitrites is more
important than lowering the levels of nitrates

Who has problems with elevated levels of ammonia/nitrites in their mature
tanks?
This problem DOES NOT EXIST!

I hope this paper is useful to new aquarists and maybe to
advanced ones who didn't understand or were misguided on this complicated
cycle. Many local fish stores (LFS) will completely disagree with my
views
but that is expected. They make lots of money by selling pre-mixed
sal****er, chemicals and other quick fix solutions to the nitrates
problem.
Some even portrait nitrates as the real menace to your tank and scare
clients to a point that they invest thousands of dollars in their
gadgets.
It is a win/win situation for them and a severe loss to the aquarist. If
you have to do water changes more than once every six months (some even
weekly): you can toss all your gadgets away because they are not working.

Once again: what purpose does 10% water change every 6 months serve?

Yours truly;

Jaime Rivera Sierra, who was trying to patent and sell expenssive gizmo
filter for our tanks and posted about this filter here on this group
not so long time ago :-) Check out what he wrote in the past:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...3482dfe1c4abd0
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...50df0777f9095e
His "experience" is with one fish-only tank, 7 fish (not reef) and this is
his
whole fish tank keeping experience. His tank is full of ugly algae and
very high nitrates @ 100mg/l. He claims to be in possition to paten a
magical
filter (gizmo?) which lets you avoid water changes at all...

All my references are going to be cited accordingly in the paper.

Anyway, I do appreciate your remarks. And will take them into consideration.