Aquarium Cluedo

In the past few months, several of the fish I've added to my tank have
died soon afterwards. They are bought from a very reliable LFS and I am
certain it is not that they are unhealthy or diseased when I get them.

The most recent victims have been a beta and an otocinclus.

The water is fine and there are a number of healthy, active fish - both
old and new - so we suspect they're being attacked by something else.

I don't think any of the other fish in the aquarium are of a violent
tendency. Currently there are mollies, ancistrus, one surviving
otocinclus and clown loaches. It doesn't seem likely that any of these
would be the culprits. There are also three shrimp, one of which has
grown quite large (about 1.5 inches long); I note that if there is a
dead fish in the tank, the shrimp are very quick to get to it - but are
they likely to attack a live fish?

--
FishNoob

In article 40070ff3-47b6-4c0a-abfd-
, says...
You left out some needed information to help figure out what's going
with your tank.

First, what size tank is this you are talking about?

125 litres.

Has this tank been up and running for a while, or only a few months,
etc?

A couple of years.

Are you doing routine water changes?

Yep.

The most recent victims have been a beta and an otocinclus.

Just an FYI, that would be a Betta (It's pronounced "bet-uh". not
"bait-uh").

I knew that. I even thought about it while I was writing. D'oh. I'm
tired...

Did either the Betta or the Oto show any symptoms before dying?

The two latest victims had been in the tank less than 24 hours :-( - but
no, no symptoms.

How was the betta's behavior? Did he act any differently? Did his fins
have any damage or fraying?

They looked a little ragged, but you know how when a betta is swimming
the fins are all spread out but when they're not moving, they kind of
droop? It's hard to tell if the ragged appearance is down to that. There
were no clear signs of attack - but some of the previous victims did
look like they'd been attacked (though it's hard to know if it was
before or after death).

Even little changes in a fish's behavior can be a large clue somtimes.
This is why I'm asking.
Otos are known for just up an dying, and being sensitive, especially
new ones.

Mollies can get nippy or bullish at times.
Did you see any behavior like that towards the Betta?

The most recent betta victim was new. We've had bettas before which also
died. I had one male betta in there for a few months, with the mollies,
without any problems. Then we added three females. When the first one
died within a few days, we wondered if they were fighting, and kept an
eye on things. We thought we'd figured out that one of them was
attacking the others, and we isolated that one - but then the male died,
followed by the other female, so we obviously got that wrong. We
released the suspect back into the tank, and the next thing we knew, she
died too :-(

We have had one kind-of-aggressive molly in the past, so I'm aware that
they can be that way - but none of the current mollies seem at all
pushy.

Another thing that sometimes gets overlooked is were the otos getting
enough algae to eat?

Yep, the algae is one of the reasons we added the ancistrus and otos, so
no shortage there.

The Clown loaches and Shrimps will devour any dead fish fast as
lightening.
My money's on the clowns for sure!

But would they attack the other fish? They were in there with the first
betta too - and with ancistrus that we had before, and with neons and a
variety of other small fish, and we had no problems then. They don't
seem aggressive at all.

Most folks will say that Ghost Shrimp aren't going to catch a live
fish.
I was one of those many folks until I saw a large Ghost shrimp snatch
a good sized, juvenile female betta of mine, right out of the water.
I had to actually get the fish away from it.

Yeah, the shrimp move pretty fast sometimes.

The betta survived and grew up with a scarred up side.
Her horizontal barring went a little wanky in the middle too. But, she
lived many years.
The Shrimp.....lived about 3 seconds after that. It was tossed into
the Angelfish tank.
So, a smaller fish may be a possible target meal, but rarely ever are
actually caught.

Hm. So you don't think the shrimp are the culprits?

I'm sceptical about the mollies or clowns being the guilty ones, because
they seem peaceful, don't bother the other fish when I'm watching, and
have spent so much time in the tank with other fish before these
problems.

--
FishNoob

"K" wrote in message
. org...
I'm sceptical about the mollies or clowns being the guilty ones, because
they seem peaceful, don't bother the other fish when I'm watching, and
have spent so much time in the tank with other fish before these
problems.
=========================
Are you acclimating the new fish before you add them to the tank? You don't
just bring them home, float them awhile and dump them in do you? The TDS
may be the problem. The PH and hardness of the water from the Pet store and
your tank may be vastly different. I learned this the hard way. :*(
--

RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

In article ,
says...
Are you acclimating the new fish before you add them to the tank? You don't
just bring them home, float them awhile and dump them in do you? The TDS
may be the problem. The PH and hardness of the water from the Pet store and
your tank may be vastly different. I learned this the hard way. :*(

There's very little difference between water from our tank and the LFS -
I had the LFS test ours at one point.

Most of the fish we've bought there have had no problem. We've been
buying there for about two years - in fact everything in the tank now is
from there (with the possible exception of one molly which I think is
one of those born in our tank).

--
KVL

In article c8927ce7-e6e8-4fd5-ad36-df2a375f9657
@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com, says...
RM is warning you about a true danger when you don't quarantine new
fish, no matter where they come from.

I recognise that. *However* - this really is a great LFS. It's a family-
run business - fish only (freshwater, marine and pond); they've been
running for many years. They don't buy from local suppliers; all their
fish are imported directly. They quarantine everything for two weeks,
giving appropriate treatment if necessary and then, after treatment,
quarantining for another two weeks. The shop itself is far smaller than
their quarantine facility. Despite spending hours in the shop, I have
never even once seen a dead or sickly-looking fish in any tank. All
their employees are well-informed and willing to help, and all keep fish
at home. I've seen them spend an hour with a family who only want a
small tank and something like ten neons. The tanks are always in great
shape - never any algae or any sign of disease. Occasionally I've seen a
tank which has been marked so that no fish from it are sold, but it's
always only just until they can move those fish back into quarantine.

The conditions there are probably far better than anything I could offer
at home - certainly their quarantine is better than anything I could
provide. IOW, I trust this place. Since I don't have room for a
quarantine tank, I feel very lucky to have such a LFS available. I have
to drive into the city and out the other side to get to them, past
several other stores that sell fish - but they're good enough to justify
it.

*******
To comment on this:

The two latest victims had been in the tank less than 24 hours :-( -
but
no, no symptoms.

The Betta and the Oto, being new arrivals, less than 24 hours after
being added.....Possible shock.
You didn't see any of the other fish attack them, no obvious symptoms,
and being too hard to give you an absolute answer without a necropsy,
then I'd go with shock.

I'd have put it down to that too, except that when we had the other
bettas, it was several weeks before the last one was dead. So even if it
was shock this time, it wasn't before. I'd just like to figure out what
it was before I condemn anything else to its death :-(

--
FishNoob

In article 1a79afd4-e378-4e18-b6d5-a86fcc6ded29
@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com, says...
= O Wow!
That's a rare shop you have there.

Yeah, I know.

Where is this shop located?
A shop that goes to that much trouble before selling is worth getting
some free advertising. = )

I don't think there's anyone else here in my area, and the website's not
up-to-date, but - www.grosvenor-tropicals.co.uk

I'd have put it down to that too, except that when we had the other
bettas, it was several weeks before the last one was dead. So even if it
was shock this time, it wasn't before. I'd just like to figure out what
it was before I condemn anything else to its death :-(


The fact that the other bettas in the past died several weeks after
you got them vs. 24 hours after you got these.... means the deaths are
like 99.9% unrelated.

So what would be your guess about the reason for the previous deaths?

However, the fact that this stores Bettas aren't lasting more than
several weeks int he first place is red flag.
Are you sure they're quarantining the bettas as well? I wouldn't
assume if I didn't know.

They quarantine everything. You know those places that sell bettas in
cups? Well, they're kinda the opposite of that ;-)

--
FishNoob

"K" wrote in message
. org...
They quarantine everything. You know those places that sell bettas in
cups? Well, they're kinda the opposite of that ;-)
======================
Just for curiosity sake - check the PH and hardness of the water in the pet
store (not in the bag when you get home) and the water in your tanks. Even
with faithful partial water changes I've had the PH and hardness sneak up on
me over time. Another time I had it crash in a slightly overcrowded tank of
young goldfish.
--
RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

In article ,
says...
Just for curiosity sake - check the PH and hardness of the water in the pet
store (not in the bag when you get home)

The water in the bag comes from the same tank as the fish; the ph and
hardness wouldn't change during the journey home - would they?

--
FishNoob

On Dec 10, 4:12 am, K wrote:
In article ,
says...

Just for curiosity sake - check the PH and hardness of the water in the pet
store (not in the bag when you get home)

The water in the bag comes from the same tank as the fish; the ph and
hardness wouldn't change during the journey home - would they?

--
FishNoob

Ph changes in the bag. Once its sealed and the fish eliminates in the
bag or just dissapates co2 etc through normal respiration it will
build up but as long as the bag is still sealed its relatively stable
for a period of time but once that bag is opened the ph can change
drastically.thats why you do not need to check the ph etc of "bagged"
water...........get a sample of the lfs water to compare with, that
has not been sealed up with a fish. ON top of that.you can take a
sample of water.and carry it home or just let it set there for an hour
and it can change PH......thats why its a freaking joke when lfs ask
for water samples and the first thing they check is the PH. Ph can
change from morning to night and it can vary due to amount of
ventilation a house has.

"K" wrote in message
. org...
In article ,
says...
Just for curiosity sake - check the PH and hardness of the water in the
pet
store (not in the bag when you get home)

The water in the bag comes from the same tank as the fish; the ph and
hardness wouldn't change during the journey home - would they?
============================
Yes it can if fish or ghost shrimp or frogs are in the bag.
--
RM.... .
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö