raising baby fish

What sort of density is acceptable for raising baby fish without stunting their
growth?

I'm using a 55 gal. tank for babies. This seemed sort of ok for 48 baby
guppies & a few baby zebras a couple weeks back. --- Decades ago I heard
somewhere that you could support 1" of fish per gallon (by which figuring I
plan to be able to keep a ten foot sturgeon in a 125 gal tank, with space left
over for a couple cories...)

However, now I've got 40 baby mollies to put somewhere, and I'm starting to
wonder if trying to raise about 100 babies in 55 gal isn't pushing it a bit.
It's not as dense as lots of tanks in fish stores, but I'd like these little
critters to be able to reach some sort of semi-adult size. Is that possible
in this size tank?

And what the heck do I do with these fish when/if they grow to a more or less
adult size?

Thanks -- Jim

"OldTownSta" wrote in message
...
What sort of density is acceptable for raising baby fish without stunting
their
growth?

I'm using a 55 gal. tank for babies. This seemed sort of ok for 48 baby
guppies & a few baby zebras a couple weeks back. --- Decades ago I heard
somewhere that you could support 1" of fish per gallon (by which figuring
I
plan to be able to keep a ten foot sturgeon in a 125 gal tank, with space
left
over for a couple cories...)

However, now I've got 40 baby mollies to put somewhere, and I'm starting
to
wonder if trying to raise about 100 babies in 55 gal isn't pushing it a
bit.
It's not as dense as lots of tanks in fish stores, but I'd like these
little
critters to be able to reach some sort of semi-adult size. Is that
possible
in this size tank?

And what the heck do I do with these fish when/if they grow to a more or
less
adult size?

Thanks -- Jim


I have loads of various fry with about 50 Kribs in a 20 g tank. They do o.k
for several months at which time I normally sell them all to a LFS. As the
fry grow you will notice some getting much larger than others and that is
usually the time or at least it is the time I try to separate them. A few
bigger fry will eat a lot of the food leaving the smaller guys without too
much. With a 55 g tank you should have no problem. The 1" fish per gallon is
a basic rule of thumb and as you point out you could keep 10 x 1" fish in a
10 g tank but you couldn't keep one 10 " fish. More important is the surface
area of the tank.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
...

"OldTownSta" wrote in message
...
What sort of density is acceptable for raising baby fish without
stunting
their
growth?

I'm using a 55 gal. tank for babies. This seemed sort of ok for 48
baby
guppies & a few baby zebras a couple weeks back. --- Decades ago I
heard
somewhere that you could support 1" of fish per gallon (by which
figuring
I
plan to be able to keep a ten foot sturgeon in a 125 gal tank, with
space
left
over for a couple cories...)

However, now I've got 40 baby mollies to put somewhere, and I'm
starting
to
wonder if trying to raise about 100 babies in 55 gal isn't pushing it
a
bit.
It's not as dense as lots of tanks in fish stores, but I'd like these
little
critters to be able to reach some sort of semi-adult size. Is that
possible
in this size tank?

And what the heck do I do with these fish when/if they grow to a more
or
less
adult size?

Thanks -- Jim


I have loads of various fry with about 50 Kribs in a 20 g tank. They do
o.k
for several months at which time I normally sell them all to a LFS. As
the
fry grow you will notice some getting much larger than others and that
is
usually the time or at least it is the time I try to separate them. A
few
bigger fry will eat a lot of the food leaving the smaller guys without
too
much. With a 55 g tank you should have no problem. The 1" fish per
gallon is
a basic rule of thumb and as you point out you could keep 10 x 1" fish
in a
10 g tank but you couldn't keep one 10 " fish. More important is the
surface
area of the tank.

Rick

I agree with Rick. Your most important parameters are your filtration,
rate of water changes & feeding (size/quantity appropriate - variety -
often). Fish-loading needs to respect swimming space (which fry don't
need much of), territorial requirements (not applicable until the fry are
much larger), mechanical filtration (which is very modest with fry),
biological filtration (which is one of your early constraints) and water
quality (probably the most critical).

While fry do not produce a lot of waste, they are much more sensitive to
it, so over-filtering (x2 tank volume) with low flow systems (x1 or x2
tank volume gph) using multiple filters will vastly improve the stability
of your handling capability. Another objective is to keep the O2 levels
high in all the levels of the tank.

Along the lines of small bodies being sensitive to small amounts of
nasties in the water, keeping the water clean is probably the highest
priority. Premium filtration alone will not do the job, being unable to
remove many elements which build up. Fry tanks should get more frequent
water changes (% depends on the similarity of source water to tank
water), if the objective is to maximize growth. With fry tanks, I prefer
to used slightly aged water, just to allow it to outgas for a day before
exposing the fry to it. Note that fry are often better adapted to your
particular water conditions than their parents were, but they are less
able to adapt to changes in these water parameters, so stability is key
to their survival.

Fry tank fish-loads of 10"/gallon are easily achievable with the
appropriate tank set-up and maintenance. Mature plant material which
does not displace too much swimming area is also very helpful in
providing a buffering effect, some additional filtering and for
harvesting a significant amount of fry-edible matter (infusoria, plant
matter etc). Following these guidelines will quickly get you into
trouble as all these fast-growing fry will be needing larger homes ;~)

Note that these are working concepts for high-density fry tanks, which
can be applied (as applicable or desirable) to low-density fry tanks, but
they are certainly not pre-requisites to raising fry. In a low-density
fry tank, provide stable water temperature & parameters along with a
steady supply of food, and you will have some success. jmo

NetMax

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Rick" wrote in message
...

I agree with Rick. Your most important parameters are your filtration,
rate of water changes & feeding (size/quantity appropriate - variety -
often). Fish-loading needs to respect swimming space (which fry don't
need much of), territorial requirements (not applicable until the fry are
much larger), mechanical filtration (which is very modest with fry),
biological filtration (which is one of your early constraints) and water
quality (probably the most critical).

While fry do not produce a lot of waste, they are much more sensitive to
it, so over-filtering (x2 tank volume) with low flow systems (x1 or x2
tank volume gph) using multiple filters will vastly improve the stability
of your handling capability. Another objective is to keep the O2 levels
high in all the levels of the tank.

Along the lines of small bodies being sensitive to small amounts of
nasties in the water, keeping the water clean is probably the highest
priority. Premium filtration alone will not do the job, being unable to
remove many elements which build up. Fry tanks should get more frequent
water changes (% depends on the similarity of source water to tank
water), if the objective is to maximize growth. With fry tanks, I prefer
to used slightly aged water, just to allow it to outgas for a day before
exposing the fry to it. Note that fry are often better adapted to your
particular water conditions than their parents were, but they are less
able to adapt to changes in these water parameters, so stability is key
to their survival.

Fry tank fish-loads of 10"/gallon are easily achievable with the
appropriate tank set-up and maintenance. Mature plant material which
does not displace too much swimming area is also very helpful in
providing a buffering effect, some additional filtering and for
harvesting a significant amount of fry-edible matter (infusoria, plant
matter etc). Following these guidelines will quickly get you into
trouble as all these fast-growing fry will be needing larger homes ;~)

Note that these are working concepts for high-density fry tanks, which
can be applied (as applicable or desirable) to low-density fry tanks, but
they are certainly not pre-requisites to raising fry. In a low-density
fry tank, provide stable water temperature & parameters along with a
steady supply of food, and you will have some success. jmo

NetMax


as usual another well written response by you NetMax. I should try to
remember when I respond to give a bit more info on how I do keep more fish
or somewhat overloaded tanks with no problems. In my Krib tank I run 2 x ATI
#3 sponges filters. All my tanks have live plants and I change water and
clean the sponges at least once a week. I keep 3 large plastic garbage cans
where I run the waste water from my R/O system into and this water is kept
heated with submersible heaters and bubbled with large airstones.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
...

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Rick" wrote in message
...

I agree with Rick. Your most important parameters are...
snip

NetMax


as usual another well written response..
snip

Rick

I'm just more wordy than you are ;~)

If you don't mind my asking, at what size do you find that the Krib fry
transport well and what compensation do you get from the LFS? I had a
fellow offer me one month old fry, and he wanted a couple of bucks
apiece. I told them I'd give him 50 cents apiece in credit (to use for
store purchases) when they were 3 months old. I'd really rather not have
taken them, as their size demands a separate tank ($$) and they wouldn't
be marketable for a few months (more $$ lost in food, care and lost tank
space), but I like to help out hobbyists (who sometimes get annoyed that
I seem so cheap). Sometimes I'll put fry in plant tanks (and they slowly
disappear, inadvertently getting sold with plants ;~) I usually try to
dissuade people from selling me their fry, by telling them that they
should take them to the local aquarium society's monthly auction (put
them back into the hobbyists pool), but I think they find some
unsuspecting LFS who doesn't have much business acumen and probably kills
them off anyways.

NetMax

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Rick" wrote in message
...

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Rick" wrote in message
...

I agree with Rick. Your most important parameters are...
snip

NetMax


as usual another well written response..
snip

Rick

I'm just more wordy than you are ;~)

If you don't mind my asking, at what size do you find that the Krib fry
transport well and what compensation do you get from the LFS? I had a
fellow offer me one month old fry, and he wanted a couple of bucks
apiece. I told them I'd give him 50 cents apiece in credit (to use for
store purchases) when they were 3 months old. I'd really rather not have
taken them, as their size demands a separate tank ($$) and they wouldn't
be marketable for a few months (more $$ lost in food, care and lost tank
space), but I like to help out hobbyists (who sometimes get annoyed that
I seem so cheap). Sometimes I'll put fry in plant tanks (and they slowly
disappear, inadvertently getting sold with plants ;~) I usually try to
dissuade people from selling me their fry, by telling them that they
should take them to the local aquarium society's monthly auction (put
them back into the hobbyists pool), but I think they find some
unsuspecting LFS who doesn't have much business acumen and probably kills
them off anyways.

NetMax



I do take a lot of fish to our aquarium society however just about everyone
has the fish or has had them. Some of the stores I deal with give me 50% of
their retail price of what ever fish I'm selling. These Kribs are 3/4" ,
some maybe a bit more and a few a bit less and they are going for $1.50 each
to the store. The main store I deal with and not the one that bought the
Kribs gives me credit which is good for both of us as he get's the fish at
50% of what he sells them for and I pay retail price for anything I buy
using my credit less my 10% discount they offer to Aquarium Society members.
If I grew the Kribs out to a 1 1/2 or so I would expect to receive about
$3.50 each on credit.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
...

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Rick" wrote in message
...

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Rick" wrote in message
...

I agree with Rick. Your most important parameters are...
snip

NetMax


as usual another well written response..
snip

Rick

I'm just more wordy than you are ;~)

If you don't mind my asking, at what size do you find that the Krib
fry
transport well and what compensation do you get from the LFS? I had
a
fellow offer me one month old fry, and he wanted a couple of bucks
apiece. I told them I'd give him 50 cents apiece in credit (to use
for
store purchases) when they were 3 months old. I'd really rather not
have
taken them, as their size demands a separate tank ($$) and they
wouldn't
be marketable for a few months (more $$ lost in food, care and lost
tank
space), but I like to help out hobbyists (who sometimes get annoyed
that
I seem so cheap). Sometimes I'll put fry in plant tanks (and they
slowly
disappear, inadvertently getting sold with plants ;~) I usually try
to
dissuade people from selling me their fry, by telling them that they
should take them to the local aquarium society's monthly auction (put
them back into the hobbyists pool), but I think they find some
unsuspecting LFS who doesn't have much business acumen and probably
kills
them off anyways.

NetMax



I do take a lot of fish to our aquarium society however just about
everyone
has the fish or has had them. Some of the stores I deal with give me
50% of
their retail price of what ever fish I'm selling. These Kribs are 3/4"
,
some maybe a bit more and a few a bit less and they are going for $1.50
each
to the store. The main store I deal with and not the one that bought
the
Kribs gives me credit which is good for both of us as he get's the fish
at
50% of what he sells them for and I pay retail price for anything I buy
using my credit less my 10% discount they offer to Aquarium Society
members.
If I grew the Kribs out to a 1 1/2 or so I would expect to receive
about
$3.50 each on credit.

Rick

Thanks for the feedback. I'd never make any money giving 50% retail.
After labour for isolation, handling, food & care, and some mortality,
the best I'd do is break even, so I guess, from the customer's
perspective, I am cheap. However, being a frugal buyer translates into
lower retail costs. I could easily sell 1-1/2" Kribs for $3.50 cdn and
still make a profit if I buy from the right supplier at the right
quantity. I've had wholesalers try to sell me fish at the same cost I
was retailing them! This is a very 'fishy' business ;~).

NetMax

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Rick" wrote in message
...

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Rick" wrote in message
...

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Rick" wrote in message
...

I agree with Rick. Your most important parameters are...
snip

NetMax


as usual another well written response..
snip

Rick

I'm just more wordy than you are ;~)

If you don't mind my asking, at what size do you find that the Krib
fry
transport well and what compensation do you get from the LFS? I had
a
fellow offer me one month old fry, and he wanted a couple of bucks
apiece. I told them I'd give him 50 cents apiece in credit (to use
for
store purchases) when they were 3 months old. I'd really rather not
have
taken them, as their size demands a separate tank ($$) and they
wouldn't
be marketable for a few months (more $$ lost in food, care and lost
tank
space), but I like to help out hobbyists (who sometimes get annoyed
that
I seem so cheap). Sometimes I'll put fry in plant tanks (and they
slowly
disappear, inadvertently getting sold with plants ;~) I usually try
to
dissuade people from selling me their fry, by telling them that they
should take them to the local aquarium society's monthly auction (put
them back into the hobbyists pool), but I think they find some
unsuspecting LFS who doesn't have much business acumen and probably
kills
them off anyways.

NetMax



I do take a lot of fish to our aquarium society however just about
everyone
has the fish or has had them. Some of the stores I deal with give me
50% of
their retail price of what ever fish I'm selling. These Kribs are 3/4"
,
some maybe a bit more and a few a bit less and they are going for $1.50
each
to the store. The main store I deal with and not the one that bought
the
Kribs gives me credit which is good for both of us as he get's the fish
at
50% of what he sells them for and I pay retail price for anything I buy
using my credit less my 10% discount they offer to Aquarium Society
members.
If I grew the Kribs out to a 1 1/2 or so I would expect to receive
about
$3.50 each on credit.

Rick

Thanks for the feedback. I'd never make any money giving 50% retail.
After labour for isolation, handling, food & care, and some mortality,
the best I'd do is break even, so I guess, from the customer's
perspective, I am cheap. However, being a frugal buyer translates into
lower retail costs. I could easily sell 1-1/2" Kribs for $3.50 cdn and
still make a profit if I buy from the right supplier at the right
quantity. I've had wholesalers try to sell me fish at the same cost I
was retailing them! This is a very 'fishy' business ;~).

NetMax



most of the retailers that buy fish from hobbyists only take those that they
can turn around very quickly, ie: Electric Yellows and Blue's, livebearers
the usual trade varieties. I took 5 Bala Sharks, all 5" + a couple of weeks
ago and got $12.50 each on credit. I have taken Malawi cichlids, medium to
large size and get $10.00 apiece. Convict's some will take, others will take
but give nothing for them. Kribs sell in LFS around here anywhere from$7.99
to $9.99 each. If you have grown them out to breeding pair size then from
some stores we can get a pretty good price, ie: a trio of Electric Blue's
proven breeders will sell for $60.00 at one store and he will give $30.00 to
buy them. These fish seldom stay in the store for more than a couple of
days. The larger store around here that I deal with usually will buy if he
is in between orders or getting low on a particular type of fish. The
benefit for them is that I keep coming back and using up that credit . Same
deal with plants, 50% of retail.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
...

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Rick" wrote in message
...

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Rick" wrote in message
...

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"Rick" wrote in message
...

I agree with Rick. Your most important parameters are...
snip

NetMax


as usual another well written response..
snip

Rick

I'm just more wordy than you are ;~)

If you don't mind my asking, at what size do you find that the
Krib
fry
transport well and what compensation do you get from the LFS? I
had
a
fellow offer me one month old fry, and he wanted a couple of
bucks
apiece. I told them I'd give him 50 cents apiece in credit (to
use
for
store purchases) when they were 3 months old. I'd really rather
not
have
taken them, as their size demands a separate tank ($$) and they
wouldn't
be marketable for a few months (more $$ lost in food, care and
lost
tank
space), but I like to help out hobbyists (who sometimes get
annoyed
that
I seem so cheap). Sometimes I'll put fry in plant tanks (and
they
slowly
disappear, inadvertently getting sold with plants ;~) I usually
try
to
dissuade people from selling me their fry, by telling them that
they
should take them to the local aquarium society's monthly auction
(put
them back into the hobbyists pool), but I think they find some
unsuspecting LFS who doesn't have much business acumen and
probably
kills
them off anyways.

NetMax



I do take a lot of fish to our aquarium society however just about
everyone
has the fish or has had them. Some of the stores I deal with give
me
50% of
their retail price of what ever fish I'm selling. These Kribs are
3/4"
,
some maybe a bit more and a few a bit less and they are going for
$1.50
each
to the store. The main store I deal with and not the one that
bought
the
Kribs gives me credit which is good for both of us as he get's the
fish
at
50% of what he sells them for and I pay retail price for anything I
buy
using my credit less my 10% discount they offer to Aquarium Society
members.
If I grew the Kribs out to a 1 1/2 or so I would expect to receive
about
$3.50 each on credit.

Rick

Thanks for the feedback. I'd never make any money giving 50% retail.
After labour for isolation, handling, food & care, and some
mortality,
the best I'd do is break even, so I guess, from the customer's
perspective, I am cheap. However, being a frugal buyer translates
into
lower retail costs. I could easily sell 1-1/2" Kribs for $3.50 cdn
and
still make a profit if I buy from the right supplier at the right
quantity. I've had wholesalers try to sell me fish at the same cost
I
was retailing them! This is a very 'fishy' business ;~).

NetMax



most of the retailers that buy fish from hobbyists only take those that
they
can turn around very quickly, ie: Electric Yellows and Blue's,
livebearers
the usual trade varieties. I took 5 Bala Sharks, all 5" + a couple of
weeks
ago and got $12.50 each on credit. I have taken Malawi cichlids, medium
to
large size and get $10.00 apiece. Convict's some will take, others will
take
but give nothing for them. Kribs sell in LFS around here anywhere
from$7.99
to $9.99 each. If you have grown them out to breeding pair size then
from
some stores we can get a pretty good price, ie: a trio of Electric
Blue's
proven breeders will sell for $60.00 at one store and he will give
$30.00 to
buy them. These fish seldom stay in the store for more than a couple of
days. The larger store around here that I deal with usually will buy if
he
is in between orders or getting low on a particular type of fish. The
benefit for them is that I keep coming back and using up that credit .
Same
deal with plants, 50% of retail.

Rick

On sellable items which can be quickly turned around, I'd tend to agree,
though I'm not in a high business area myself. I suppose it depends on
the area as well. I almost can't give away large Malawians here. It's a
new suburb, so I have lots of newbies with little tanks. Credit notes
are worth about half to the store, so it costs them 25% instead of 50%,
so that's much more manageable.

Thanks Rick
NetMax

Thanks for the info & reassurance! Great forum & wonderful helpful folk!

Guess things will be o.k. -- in the 100 fry (gups, mollies, zebras) 55 gal.,
I've got an Penguin biowheel 330 & sponge filter going, some plants. Feeding
w/ liquid baby food (1st wk or two), crumbled tetramin, live new hatched brine
shrimp, frozen baby brine shrimp, frozen daphnia (rotating these last 3) & the
occassional algae tab.

Complicating factor is that I had to treat the main 120 gal community tank for
ich (damn clown loaches), & with lots of plant / water / net sharing & a few
fry flashing figgered I'd better treat the baby tank too.

I read all the internet hoo-ha on ich (very helpful of course), and went with
the reasonable sounding program I found somewhere (skeptical aquarist mebbe?)
as follows:

* Formalin/Malachite green med (Rid-Ich+ in my case) at full dosage (1 t. /
10gal) for four doses at 3 day intervals, each time accompanied by 50% water
change.
* Heat raise to 86 F. sustained through treatment.
* 1 T salt per 10 gal.
* Carbon out the meds & fresh water partial changes & slowly reduce temp back
down after the med had run its course.

Seems to be going ok. Clowns (previously removed to a quarantine tank & over
medicated before I'd done adequate research) all died, lost one neon in the
main tank, but everyone else seems to be doing ok, & the flashing & scratching
on stuff has stopped.

I'd been concerned about this regimen w/ the babies, but they seem to have
tolerated it very well, no losses at all. (I started trying to treat the baby
tank w/ just heat raise & salt, until I saw a couple of the guppy fry flashing
& had to add new-bone mollies from the community tank being treated)

Should I expected long term negative effects in the fry from the med?

Nervous as I was about using "heavy duty" meds, the main community tank & the
fry tank both seemed to actually perk up w/ this regimen.

Now, once this ich treatment has run it's course, I'm thinking about keeping
the tanks a bit warmer than I had been (had been at 76 F, maybe aim for
80-81F?), and periodically doing a partial water change w/ 1 T / 10 gal. salt
instead of strictly fresh water. Having sort of looked over the salt threads
in the forum, seems like an occassional salt treatment might be a better go
than trying to maintain a full time salt level.

Main 120 gal. tank has kribs, cories, zebras, neons, guppies, swords, mollies,
pl*co, b.g.knife, glass cats, hatchets, cherry barbs, angels, pictus.

I would like to add back some clowns, but I'm so snake-bit on them now I think
I have to quarantine them for like 5 years, and by then they'd be too big
anyway. If our LFS's ever get kuhli loaches in again, I may try adding them
instead (assuming the BGK won't think they're spaghetti), since I loved them as
a kid. In another inch or two, the BGK may need to go to a "big fish" tank
anyway. Sort of had the impression that clowns might not tolerate kuhli's,
altho I'm not sure of that.

Sorry to go on so long, but I am having great fun & do appreciate the comments
& suggestions! -- Jim