aeration

Okay, I'd better explain the dawn patrol method ;-)
BV's beer aside (as in laid back ponding method, which I am in full agreement,
though I don't drink, medication forbids...)

Anyway. At night the plant life in the pond stops producing oxygen and starts
consuming oxygen. One reason why it is important to run fountains, waterfalls,
spitters and/or bubblers 24 hours a day.
If the pond is not going to support the fish through out the night it will be
easily apparent right before sunrise and the fish will be gasping at the
surface. I saw this in my frog bog (when it had fish). Azollza had almost
completely taken over the pond and so I got up early (it also helps to be a
morning person) and the poor fish were gasping at the surface. Now I knew
there was no way I was going to get all that azolla out as it was reproducing
every two minutes so I put in a minnow trap and removed as many fish as I could
catch. Later I removed all the fish from that pond.
Interestingly the azolla all died once the air temps reached the joyful week of
105 to 110 we get here in August. The pond is also only about 10 inches deep
and so the water was pretty darn warm - another reason not to keep goldfish in
there.


kathy :-)
A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/"Once upon a pond/A

Standing water create a thermocline, whereas the lower layer of the water body
is much cooler than the top layer. Since your pond is only 25" deep, and that
you have the main pump running, thermocline should not be an issue.

I hate to see any water feature with a venturi or an airstone. They're so
unnatural. The parts I hate the most about them are that they disturb the water
surface and create extreme light ray distortion, making viewing the content of
the body of water highly distractive. There is little efficiency in oxygenating
the water through airstone. The venturi adds little more to that.

The best way to oxygenate the water is to use a Trickle Tower. Water flowing
down hugh number of small items creates extreme water surface disruption. This
let the water to have massive gas exchange rate, when comparing to airstone or
venturi.

If you want an application for your small pump, make a small TT to use it. Fill
a 5 gallon bucket filled with lava rock. Let that pump feed this TT. This is my
only setup I use for my 600 gallons pond.

Newbie Bill wrote:

Let me try this again. Thanxx to all who have answered so far. All of your
suggestions are helpful but they may raise more questions than they answer.
Let me revert to 'pump layout 101' questions.
My pond is around 800 gallons. It is shaped like a snowman with a smaller
'circle' on top (about 5 ft wide) of a larger one (about 6 1/2 ft). There is
very little 'indentation'/restriction between the two circles. The top has
an irregular buttom (has a platform in it as the original owner had designed
it as mostly a spitter pond) but it is only about 18" deep in the small end
and 25" in the larger end. It is a little over 9 feet long. Accordingly it
does has a high surface to volume ratio, which I assume helps a little bit
in gas exchange. I have a 1600 gal Laguna pump(full open) running from the
deeper end to my filter which comes back in over a small shelf of two flat
rocks stacked on each other, in the shallow end. This does create minimal
splashing, some ripples and bubbles. The small pump in question is in the
middle of the larger circle. Surprising to me, the bubbling/rolling from
the 200 gph pump actually produces stronger ripples than the 'splash' end
(floating food is pushed towards the 'waterfall'). I have a bunch of water
lilies around the edge of the deep end which is why I am trying to avoid
splashing with the little pump. Even a very small bell fountain effect was
splashing the leaves and making visibility poor. It wont be long before the
water rolling from the small pump is pretty much the only open surface on
the deep end. I have about 8 submerged anarchis.
Everything is running well right now but I am particularly concerned about
it being so shallow and my first ponding hot Texas summer coming on. It
gets full afternoon sun. I have more flow from my big pump than I need. I
was planning to build a 'sink filter' as filter #2 and divert some flow to
it, as my fish load is very high. Naturally I am not getting a full 1600
gph due to elevation loss, but I think it would be adequate for both. Water
parameters are perfect right now, but they are growing right.
Now, as a result of your valuable input I am unsure how to proceed. I
would very much appreciate your educated guesses. I could divert the large
pump and try the venturi idea, and add new pump and filter as/if required
later. (Trying to avoid higher electricity usage when possible.) Your
input has now started me to consider zonation which I assume is
stratification(just read a bit about this). Perhaps? I should divert the
large pump for additional airation and just us the small to move lower water
some. I hadn't thought it through but to put in an airstone I would need
(even if small) an external pump that sucks air and not water right. I am a
bit concerned about moving the small pump much deeper since it has no
prefilter, just small slits in the case, which seem to plug up within 2-4
weeks just from algae growth, much less pulling sediment. The fountain tube
attached (I didnt mention before) put the bottom of the pump about a foot
deep and exiting about an inch from the water surface. I suspect if I lower
it much more there will be very little rolling water on the surface. I am
also wondering if I should be diverting from the large pump directly into
the pond just for water movement. or. or. or. Probably there are other
permutations which I havent considered.
Sorry to be so lengthy but, like I am discovering in ponding, few things
have a totally simple straightforward solution when my budget is small and
my ambitions are large. Thanks again for all the help. My general naivete
was once again in full force when I first started 'building my pond'. I
love it, but every time I learn something - which is almost daily - I learn
two more things I dont know enough about. I can only begin to imagine the
disasters I would have already encountered if I didnt have this group for
soooooo much support.
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas (for Grubber it's actually Leander)

Hi Sean - I appreciate yet another possible suggestion. I generally agree
with what you are saying about disrubting the water, but I guess I have
gotten used to what I have now. That is one of the reasons I didnt put the
outflow out of the water, because it disrupted it much more. I still will
probably get a standby setup of something like the venturi or airstone for
future instances when I am treating the pond and extra aeration is
suggested.

I have tried to read up a little on your trickle tower but perhaps your
suggestions will answer quicker. First of all - "natural'. If I am
understanding the idea - how do you get a bucket of rocks, sticking up out
of your pond to look natural? I have my babbling brook effect pretty much
in the middle of the 'deep' end with the thought it will distribute a little
better. If the trickle filter is 'hidden' on the side will the aeration
dispurse as evenly? or is that a real consideration. I am obviously missing
something as well - newbie remember. The few things that I read sounded
like a trickle tower is essentially a bio filter. It makes sense if the
water is getting oxygen and then immediately falling on the rocks these bio
bugs would be well aerated as compared to other methods - but does this
actually create more oxygen available to the pond. Lastly? I have tried the
"gravel in the milk crate prefilter idea" and even that I found very
difficult to pull from the pond. Wouldnt this or any suggestion of filling
a 5 pound bucket with pea gravel be very heavy to put in and out of the
pond?
Thanks for you help!
Bill Brister

"Sean Dinh" wrote in message
...
Standing water create a thermocline, whereas the lower layer of the water
body
is much cooler than the top layer. Since your pond is only 25" deep, and
that
you have the main pump running, thermocline should not be an issue.

I hate to see any water feature with a venturi or an airstone. They're so
unnatural. The parts I hate the most about them are that they disturb the
water
surface and create extreme light ray distortion, making viewing the
content of
the body of water highly distractive. There is little efficiency in
oxygenating
the water through airstone. The venturi adds little more to that.

The best way to oxygenate the water is to use a Trickle Tower. Water
flowing
down hugh number of small items creates extreme water surface disruption.
This
let the water to have massive gas exchange rate, when comparing to
airstone or
venturi.

If you want an application for your small pump, make a small TT to use it.
Fill
a 5 gallon bucket filled with lava rock. Let that pump feed this TT. This
is my
only setup I use for my 600 gallons pond.

Newbie Bill wrote:

Let me try this again. Thanxx to all who have answered so far. All of
your
suggestions are helpful but they may raise more questions than they
answer.
Let me revert to 'pump layout 101' questions.
My pond is around 800 gallons. It is shaped like a snowman with a
smaller
'circle' on top (about 5 ft wide) of a larger one (about 6 1/2 ft).
There is
very little 'indentation'/restriction between the two circles. The top
has
an irregular buttom (has a platform in it as the original owner had
designed
it as mostly a spitter pond) but it is only about 18" deep in the small
end
and 25" in the larger end. It is a little over 9 feet long. Accordingly
it
does has a high surface to volume ratio, which I assume helps a little
bit
in gas exchange. I have a 1600 gal Laguna pump(full open) running from
the
deeper end to my filter which comes back in over a small shelf of two
flat
rocks stacked on each other, in the shallow end. This does create
minimal
splashing, some ripples and bubbles. The small pump in question is in
the
middle of the larger circle. Surprising to me, the bubbling/rolling
from
the 200 gph pump actually produces stronger ripples than the 'splash'
end
(floating food is pushed towards the 'waterfall'). I have a bunch of
water
lilies around the edge of the deep end which is why I am trying to avoid
splashing with the little pump. Even a very small bell fountain effect
was
splashing the leaves and making visibility poor. It wont be long before
the
water rolling from the small pump is pretty much the only open surface
on
the deep end. I have about 8 submerged anarchis.
Everything is running well right now but I am particularly concerned
about
it being so shallow and my first ponding hot Texas summer coming on. It
gets full afternoon sun. I have more flow from my big pump than I need.
I
was planning to build a 'sink filter' as filter #2 and divert some flow
to
it, as my fish load is very high. Naturally I am not getting a full
1600
gph due to elevation loss, but I think it would be adequate for both.
Water
parameters are perfect right now, but they are growing right.
Now, as a result of your valuable input I am unsure how to proceed. I
would very much appreciate your educated guesses. I could divert the
large
pump and try the venturi idea, and add new pump and filter as/if
required
later. (Trying to avoid higher electricity usage when possible.) Your
input has now started me to consider zonation which I assume is
stratification(just read a bit about this). Perhaps? I should divert
the
large pump for additional airation and just us the small to move lower
water
some. I hadn't thought it through but to put in an airstone I would need
(even if small) an external pump that sucks air and not water right. I
am a
bit concerned about moving the small pump much deeper since it has no
prefilter, just small slits in the case, which seem to plug up within
2-4
weeks just from algae growth, much less pulling sediment. The fountain
tube
attached (I didnt mention before) put the bottom of the pump about a
foot
deep and exiting about an inch from the water surface. I suspect if I
lower
it much more there will be very little rolling water on the surface. I
am
also wondering if I should be diverting from the large pump directly
into
the pond just for water movement. or. or. or. Probably there are other
permutations which I havent considered.
Sorry to be so lengthy but, like I am discovering in ponding, few
things
have a totally simple straightforward solution when my budget is small
and
my ambitions are large. Thanks again for all the help. My general
naivete
was once again in full force when I first started 'building my pond'. I
love it, but every time I learn something - which is almost daily - I
learn
two more things I dont know enough about. I can only begin to imagine
the
disasters I would have already encountered if I didnt have this group
for
soooooo much support.
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas (for Grubber it's actually Leander)

Just for fun I entered trickle tower into
google images and found 58 images listed.
http://images.google.com/images?q=tr...1&hl=en&btnG=G
oogle+Search

I don't have one but they were all the rage on the water gardening magazine
forum a couple of years ago.


kathy :-)
A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/"Once upon a pond/A

Bill,

The only problem with waiting for the noise of gasping
fish is that you may very quickly be losing your
largest fish. The big ones always die first.

For the price of a small air pump at Wal-Mart and Ice
Cream Container to cover it and a brick to sit the pump
on under the Ice Cream container and a length of tubing
that puts an airstone in the deepest part of your pond
weighted down in some way, you can get a nice rising
column of air bubble and water to help you fish through
the summer.

It is a small price to pay, for a little more insurance.

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------------------

Newbie Bill wrote:

Okay okay - You guys are tooooooooo funny. THANKS - I'm sure I do need to
tone it down a bit. Prolly part of my 'problem' is all in all things are
going great. I am addressing a 'bug' problem, but in general the pond is
great. I have 6-10 lily blooms on any given day. Water cannas about to
bloom. Other marginals getting bigger. Numbers good. Seems I did so much
and was trying to learn so much at first I just have to look for problems.
Heck I have to do something to 'justify' the many hours I'm just sitting
around watching the fishies and soaking in the beauty. I probably would be
in the top ten at least, in a tan contest. Yes, yes life is good.
Of course as mentioned, everytime I learn something I come up with 2 more
'problems'. 1-I don't drink, 2-I most definitely don't get up before dawn.
According to BV if drinking improves your ability to hear the fish gasping
from afar maybe I could just put a tape recorder out by the pond and see if
a sugar rush would help my hearing. Baby monitor? Well - maybe not .
Ein prosit, ein prosit zur gemutlichkeit! Now you've learned something. I
was an Air Force brat in Germany during high school. I DID drink then
Bill

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"grubber" wrote in message
...

"Ka30P" wrote in message
...

The best way to tell if your pond is low on oxygen, the low tech, beer

in

hand

way, is to
get up before the sun rises. If your fish are gasping at the surface

you

need

more air in there. If not, they are doing fine.


kathy :-)
A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/"Once upon a pond/A

Getting up before the sun rises and grabbing a beer before heading to

the

pond may be considered uncouth. To avoid this, stay up all night

drinking

beer, and when the sun rises, go out and check on the fishies. If they

are

gasping for air, worry about the aeration after you've slept it off. If
they ask for a beer, you have had too many beers to make a decision.

Try

again tomorrow.

I guess I have a problem then, because I usually do this check
automatically. If the sound of the fish gasping wakes me up, I know two
things. 1) the fish need more aeration, 2) i drank too much and passed out
next to the pond.

BV.

Bill,

this site has pictures for a standard TT design
http://koi-uk.co.uk/trickle_tower.htm Adapt it to your 5 gallons bucket.

Gas exchange happens at the interface of water and air. The more rocks the water
trickle down on, the better the gas exchange would be. This means that the rocks
in a TT should only be coated with water, not being submersed. The more surface
area the rocks have, the better the gas exchange would be. This is why high
surface area bio balls and lava rocks are used in a TT.

Set the TT far away somewhere. Hide it if you prefer that way. Run a hose from
the spigot at the bottom of the TT to the pond, feed into it either above or
below the water.

Since your 200 gph pump is weak and has no prefilter, you need to design a
prefilter to cope with constant maintenance from pump clogging. Someone recently
mentioned clamping the pump between 2 water plant baskets as a prefilter. I used
only 1.

My 600 gallons pond is in SoCal. It's being aerated by a 180 gph pump feeding a
5 gallons bucket TT. It had no problems during 2 days heat wave last time.

Newbie Bill wrote:

I have tried to read up a little on your trickle tower but perhaps your
suggestions will answer quicker. First of all - "natural'. If I am
understanding the idea - how do you get a bucket of rocks, sticking up out
of your pond to look natural? I have my babbling brook effect pretty much
in the middle of the 'deep' end with the thought it will distribute a little
better. If the trickle filter is 'hidden' on the side will the aeration
dispurse as evenly? or is that a real consideration. I am obviously missing
something as well - newbie remember. The few things that I read sounded
like a trickle tower is essentially a bio filter. It makes sense if the
water is getting oxygen and then immediately falling on the rocks these bio
bugs would be well aerated as compared to other methods - but does this
actually create more oxygen available to the pond. Lastly? I have tried the
"gravel in the milk crate prefilter idea" and even that I found very
difficult to pull from the pond. Wouldnt this or any suggestion of filling
a 5 pound bucket with pea gravel be very heavy to put in and out of the
pond?
Thanks for you help!
Bill Brister

actually, the smaller the air bubbles coming out of the air stone the larger the over
all surface to volume ratio. which is why airstones can put so much more air into
water that just disturbing the surface.
now if those bubbles break the surface and rise into the air there is exchange both
on the inside and outside of that film of water.
an airstone in the water moves a water column up to the top and it flows outwards
creating a moving column of water that brings water from the bottom up to the top or
vertically. this is much better circulation than a venturi that moves water only
horizontally across the surface.
pumps should not be put on the bottom of ponds. too much chance of something going
wrong and the pond being drained.
Ingrid

Actually, the air water interface is at least as important, if not more
important. The larger the surface area of the air/water interface, the greater
the exchange of gases. While an airstone can pump air through the water, it
does so in a limited way, since it is only making contact with a small area of
water at a time and only influences the immediate area around the airstone. By
inducing a current across the surface of the water with a pump located at the
bottom of the pond, you will induce more gas exchange because of the greater
surface area involved. It also helps in preventing zonation from froming in the
water column, since you are pumping the water from the bottom and streaming it
across the surface, which in turn, allows oxygenated water to move towards the
bottom of the pond. The ripples going across the surface of the pond also looks
nice.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

the greatest risk to fish for low oxygen is
1. pond water is hot, less oxygen dissolves in hot water
2. the pond is full of green algae (well maybe green plants too)
3. big fish (big fish suffer first)
4. poor aeration

if you absolutely, positively want to make damn sure there is sufficient oxygen get
an aquatic ecosystem whitewater regenerative blower ($179) or their swee****er
(around $379) and a foot long air stone for every 1000 gallons.
Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

my foot long airstone is right under the waterfall, I have it hanging length ways
(horizontal) so it foams the water as it spills over from the veggie filter.
actually I could put the air stone into the veggie filter too.
my water lilies are 2-3' away and not disturbed at all. the area where I sit and
watch my fish is glass smooth... well except when the buggers see me they go nuts
splashing me for food.
there is tremendous efficiency in airstones ..
Ingrid

Sean Dinh wrote:
I hate to see any water feature with a venturi or an airstone. They're so
unnatural. The parts I hate the most about them are that they disturb the water
surface and create extreme light ray distortion, making viewing the content of
the body of water highly distractive. There is little efficiency in oxygenating
the water through airstone. The venturi adds little more to that.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

trickle towers are extremely good for people with less than ideal water, especially
those with high CO2, iron or hydrogen sulfide in their well water. Ingrid

EROSPAM (Ka30P) wrote:


Just for fun I entered trickle tower into
google images and found 58 images listed.
http://images.google.com/images?q=tr...1&hl=en&btnG=G
oogle+Search

I don't have one but they were all the rage on the water gardening magazine
forum a couple of years ago.


kathy :-)
A HREF="http://www.onceuponapond.com/"Once upon a pond/A



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.