aeration

wrote in message
...
actually, the smaller the air bubbles coming out of the air stone the larger
the over
all surface to volume ratio. which is why airstones can put so much more air
into
water that just disturbing the surface.
now if those bubbles break the surface and rise into the air there is exchange
both
on the inside and outside of that film of water.
an airstone in the water moves a water column up to the top and it flows
outwards
creating a moving column of water that brings water from the bottom up to the
top or
vertically. this is much better circulation than a venturi that moves water
only
horizontally across the surface.

In a pond, as opposed to an aquarium, in order to get an equivalent water flow
and gas exchange from an airstone would require vastly more air than most people
are willing to spend the money on, in my opinion. And the water movement into
the column disipates over a fairly short distance. oxygenating fresh water is
simpler, and less critical than it is with salt water, especially with goldfish,
since they can practically live in sewage. Larger fish like koi are a different
story. But the whole issue is probably moot anyway, since if the fish aren't
suffering, there is really no point in going to the added expense and trouble.
I can see a situation in which you have too much bioload in the pond then you
would need to add air, but to me the best solution is to simply reduce the
bioload. Fish gasping for air because of too little oxygen in the water is a
sure sign of a pond that simply has too much growth. The only time I use an
airstone is in the dead of winter to keep the water moving, since I don't want
to damage my pump by having it freeze up on me. I do use a floating de-icer,
but that doesn't guarantee that the water in the filter won't freeze.

pumps should not be put on the bottom of ponds. too much chance of something
going
wrong and the pond being drained.
Ingrid

I agree that you should never place the pump directly on the bottom of the pond
unprotected. However, if the piping is installed properly, and you add an
adequate pre-filter to the pump intake (one that can be easily cleaned), I see
no reason not to put a pump on the bottom. I don't do it simply because my
filtration system is designed differently. Personally, I use the suction method
in my filtration system instead of positive pressure for several reasons.
First, I have a 5 gallon pre-filter in the bottom of the pond, to which is
attached to the intake of the main filter. The main filter consists of an old
jacuzzi swimming pool filter housing (about 40 gallons capacity) that I have
adapted for use in the pond. The filter is submersed in the pond out of sight
beneath my waterfall. The intake line attaches to a 90degree elbow, which is
attached to a threaded coupling that goes into the bottom of the filter tank.
Attached to the coupling on the inside of the tank is a stainless steel basket
line strainer that catches any debris that happens to get past the prefilter
(which usually is very little). Surrounding the strainer is about 50 lbs of
quartz aquarium gravel, which fills the tank about half way to the top. Above
the gravel is a very course mesh polymer pad to keep the gravel from getting
sucked up into the pump. The pump sits about two inches above this pad. The
pump is attached to the top plate via fittings, into which the outlet is
attached. The electrical cable also goes through the top plate via a rubber
electrical grommet. The top of the filter sits about three inches below the top
of the water in the pond, so the pump intake itself is submerged into about the
top 15 inches of water.

The effect is just to suck or pull the water through the system. The only water
going through the pump is filtered water. It is at the end instead of at the
beginning of the filtration process. An added benfit is that it can never pump
all of the water out of the pond. I always know when the pre-filter needs
cleaning or the water level has dropped for some reason, because the pump will
raise pitch due to the water level being drawn down to the level of the pump
intake (inside the filter housing), causing a slight cavitation. Since I check
it every day, there is very little risk of the pump burning out due to extended
caviation and/or overheating. And the pump was actually designed to run
practially dry. When I get a chance, I will give you a link to some photos of
the filtration system. Oh, and because I use a very efficient pre-filter, I
almost never have to backwash the main filter, which allows the bacteria to
flourish undisturbed. I do, about once every six months, open the filter and
swish the gravel around to get rid of any potential clumping, and then pump the
gunk out into a bucket. But I haven't had to do it yet this year. I still have
full water flow. One day, when I decide to spend the money, which will probably
be whenever the pump fails, this is the pump that is on my "some day" wish list:

http://www.flotecpump.com/

Actually, the air water interface is at least as important, if not more
important. The larger the surface area of the air/water interface, the
greater
the exchange of gases. While an airstone can pump air through the water, it
does so in a limited way, since it is only making contact with a small area of
water at a time and only influences the immediate area around the airstone.
By
inducing a current across the surface of the water with a pump located at the
bottom of the pond, you will induce more gas exchange because of the greater
surface area involved. It also helps in preventing zonation from froming in
the
water column, since you are pumping the water from the bottom and streaming it
across the surface, which in turn, allows oxygenated water to move towards the
bottom of the pond. The ripples going across the surface of the pond also
looks
nice.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

I really liked the strawberry pot with the lava stone in it. I'm going to
have to figure out how to impliment that. I worry though if it will make
the water hotter...

I have my pump in a 5 gallon bucket that is filled with lava rock. I clean
it about once a year and have had no trouble with it. Basically you can
tell if it needs cleaned if the rate of water flow slows.


"Sean Dinh" wrote in message
...
Bill,

this site has pictures for a standard TT design
http://koi-uk.co.uk/trickle_tower.htm Adapt it to your 5 gallons bucket.

Gas exchange happens at the interface of water and air. The more rocks the
water
trickle down on, the better the gas exchange would be. This means that the
rocks
in a TT should only be coated with water, not being submersed. The more
surface
area the rocks have, the better the gas exchange would be. This is why
high
surface area bio balls and lava rocks are used in a TT.

Set the TT far away somewhere. Hide it if you prefer that way. Run a hose
from
the spigot at the bottom of the TT to the pond, feed into it either above
or
below the water.

Since your 200 gph pump is weak and has no prefilter, you need to design a
prefilter to cope with constant maintenance from pump clogging. Someone
recently
mentioned clamping the pump between 2 water plant baskets as a prefilter.
I used
only 1.

My 600 gallons pond is in SoCal. It's being aerated by a 180 gph pump
feeding a
5 gallons bucket TT. It had no problems during 2 days heat wave last time.

Newbie Bill wrote:

I have tried to read up a little on your trickle tower but perhaps your
suggestions will answer quicker. First of all - "natural'. If I am
understanding the idea - how do you get a bucket of rocks, sticking up
out
of your pond to look natural? I have my babbling brook effect pretty
much
in the middle of the 'deep' end with the thought it will distribute a
little
better. If the trickle filter is 'hidden' on the side will the aeration
dispurse as evenly? or is that a real consideration. I am obviously
missing
something as well - newbie remember. The few things that I read sounded
like a trickle tower is essentially a bio filter. It makes sense if the
water is getting oxygen and then immediately falling on the rocks these
bio
bugs would be well aerated as compared to other methods - but does this
actually create more oxygen available to the pond. Lastly? I have tried
the
"gravel in the milk crate prefilter idea" and even that I found very
difficult to pull from the pond. Wouldnt this or any suggestion of
filling
a 5 pound bucket with pea gravel be very heavy to put in and out of the
pond?
Thanks for you help!
Bill Brister

"D Kat" wrote in message
...
I really liked the strawberry pot with the lava stone in it. I'm going to
have to figure out how to impliment that. I worry though if it will make
the water hotter...

I have my pump in a 5 gallon bucket that is filled with lava rock. I
clean
it about once a year and have had no trouble with it. Basically you can
tell if it needs cleaned if the rate of water flow slows.
snip

I like that one too, and since I screwed up when building my VF, you see
mycheck valve. It would make a nice platform to site a decorative pot on to.
My concern is that the strawberry pots I always see, seem to be unfinished
terracotta. That will never last in the pond.

BV.

I find GF more touchy about water quality and aeration than koi. Ingrid

" George" wrote:
oxygenating fresh water is
simpler, and less critical than it is with salt water, especially with goldfish,
since they can practically live in sewage.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
I find GF more touchy about water quality and aeration than koi. Ingrid

Really? I don't understand why. Maybe I am mistaken, but aren't they natural
air gulpers. It has always been my understanding that goldfish can tolerate
less than ideal conditions, while koi cannot.

" George" wrote:
oxygenating fresh water is
simpler, and less critical than it is with salt water, especially with
goldfish,
since they can practically live in sewage.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

" George" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
I find GF more touchy about water quality and aeration than koi. Ingrid

Really? I don't understand why. Maybe I am mistaken, but aren't they
natural
air gulpers. It has always been my understanding that goldfish can
tolerate
less than ideal conditions, while koi cannot.

My mother was baby sitting her neighbor's goldfish for a week last year. The
neighbor just told them to feed 'em once a day. We showed up to the house,
and their kitchen had a distinctive diaper odor. We thought nothing of it,
because our nephew had been there, and we figured the garbage can was to
blame. I took it out. The smell persisted. At one point I went over to fish
bowl to say hello, and the smell from the gallon or so of water nearly
knocked me off my feet. I've smelled toilets in bars that were cleaner then
this.

I had no dechlor, and didn't know of a pet shop, so we set some water out
all night, and did partial water changes over two days. By the end of the
weekend, the fish was no longer gulping, and the odor was gone.

I can't speak for all goldies, but this guy was surviving in absolute filth.

BV.

no.. those are bettas can gulp air. the idea comes from the goldfish bowl and the
carnival GF. most all die, but the occasional one survives horrible conditions.
fancy GF dont survive long at all. it is always the commons that make it. Ingrid

" George" wrote:
Really? I don't understand why. Maybe I am mistaken, but aren't they natural
air gulpers. It has always been my understanding that goldfish can tolerate
less than ideal conditions, while koi cannot.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
no.. those are bettas can gulp air. the idea comes from the goldfish bowl and
the
carnival GF. most all die, but the occasional one survives horrible
conditions.
fancy GF dont survive long at all. it is always the commons that make it.
Ingrid

" George" wrote:
Really? I don't understand why. Maybe I am mistaken, but aren't they natural
air gulpers. It has always been my understanding that goldfish can tolerate
less than ideal conditions, while koi cannot.


Well, apparently you are right. I did some research and found this article:

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art3503.asp

Excuse my ignorance. Chalk it up to many years of experience raising tropical
and salt water fish, and virtually none with cold water species (except for the
last year or so). Everyone who has goldfish should read that artcicle. You
live and learn, right?

the only part she got wrong was em being cold water fish. they arent. their
metabolism peaks at 75-78oF. Ingrid

" George" wrote:

wrote in message
...
no.. those are bettas can gulp air. the idea comes from the goldfish bowl and
the
carnival GF. most all die, but the occasional one survives horrible
conditions.
fancy GF dont survive long at all. it is always the commons that make it.
Ingrid

" George" wrote:
Really? I don't understand why. Maybe I am mistaken, but aren't they natural
air gulpers. It has always been my understanding that goldfish can tolerate
less than ideal conditions, while koi cannot.


Well, apparently you are right. I did some research and found this article:

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art3503.asp

Excuse my ignorance. Chalk it up to many years of experience raising tropical
and salt water fish, and virtually none with cold water species (except for the
last year or so). Everyone who has goldfish should read that artcicle. You
live and learn, right?




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
the only part she got wrong was em being cold water fish. they arent. their
metabolism peaks at 75-78oF. Ingrid

I thought something was wrong with that, but I wanted to hear it from somebody
else first.

" George" wrote:

wrote in message
...
no.. those are bettas can gulp air. the idea comes from the goldfish bowl
and
the
carnival GF. most all die, but the occasional one survives horrible
conditions.
fancy GF dont survive long at all. it is always the commons that make it.
Ingrid

" George" wrote:
Really? I don't understand why. Maybe I am mistaken, but aren't they
natural
air gulpers. It has always been my understanding that goldfish can tolerate
less than ideal conditions, while koi cannot.


Well, apparently you are right. I did some research and found this article:

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art3503.asp

Excuse my ignorance. Chalk it up to many years of experience raising tropical
and salt water fish, and virtually none with cold water species (except for
the
last year or so). Everyone who has goldfish should read that artcicle. You
live and learn, right?




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.