Newbie need help

I have a 25'x25'x24" pond with a 60'x2' stream. 40% covered in plants. 4-6
6 inch goldfish, and some baby goldfish, a few frogs. External self priming
pump and no skimmer or biological filter. No stones on the bottom of the
large pond. The water recirculates up to a 3'x3'x12" pool with stone in it.
The water then cascades over a 36" fall into the stream. The pond is
relatively clear.

1. Do I need to install an expensive man made biological filter? If so,
can I use small stones in the smaller pond to act as surface area for
bacteria?

2. Do I need to clean the bottom of the main pond on a yearly basis? If so,
why? Can I do damage to the natural system by stirring it all up?

3. Evaporation? Given the dimensions above and our summer temps in the
60's to 70's, I have noticed that the level of the large pond area has a
loss of about 1/8" for two days. We've had no rain. Given the surface area
of my larger pond area and the length and width of the stream, is there any
evaporation that I could actually measure?

Thanks for your help.

--
Steve Shapson
Southern Wisconsin

"Steve Shapson" wrote in message
...
I have a 25'x25'x24" pond with a 60'x2' stream. 40% covered in plants. 4-6
6 inch goldfish, and some baby goldfish, a few frogs. External self priming
pump and no skimmer or biological filter. No stones on the bottom of the
large pond. The water recirculates up to a 3'x3'x12" pool with stone in it.
The water then cascades over a 36" fall into the stream. The pond is
relatively clear.

1. Do I need to install an expensive man made biological filter? If so,
can I use small stones in the smaller pond to act as surface area for
bacteria?

To answer the first question, no. To answer the second question, you've already
got a biological filter with stone in the smaller pond, and the plants in the
main pond. Your water is clear. You fish, I take it are healthy, as are your
other aquatics. If it ain't broke... Which answers the first question as well.

2. Do I need to clean the bottom of the main pond on a yearly basis?

A lot of people do find that they have to do this on a periodic basis.
Eventually, we all do. I use aquazyme to help reduce the amount of sludge build
up in my pond, It works pretty well. My pond has been set up for over two
years, and I've not had to clean the bottom or the main filter out yet.

If so, why? Can I do damage to the natural system by stirring it all up?

Usually a bottom clean involves either using a suction system (like a shop vac,
or pool vac) to suck up the sludge, or else you can drain the entire pond and
clean it out (which usually involves a nearly complete start over). Disturbing
the pond in such a manner will inevidibly disturb the natural system, but the
alternative is a continuous supply of unwanted nutrients feeding a potentially
worsening algae monster. In addition, sludge build up in your pond can produce
hydrogen sulfide, which can kill the animals in your pond, and can even make you
sick if you breathe enough of it. Nor does it smell very good.

3. Evaporation? Given the dimensions above and our summer temps in the
60's to 70's, I have noticed that the level of the large pond area has a
loss of about 1/8" for two days. We've had no rain. Given the surface area
of my larger pond area and the length and width of the stream, is there any
evaporation that I could actually measure?

You've already measured it. It's 1/16"/day, or 1/8"/two days, that is, if you
have no leaks.

"Steve Shapson" wrote in message
...
I have a 25'x25'x24" pond with a 60'x2' stream. 40% covered in plants.
4-6
6 inch goldfish, and some baby goldfish, a few frogs. External self
priming
pump and no skimmer or biological filter. No stones on the bottom of the
large pond. The water recirculates up to a 3'x3'x12" pool with stone in
it.
The water then cascades over a 36" fall into the stream. The pond is
relatively clear.

1. Do I need to install an expensive man made biological filter? If so,
can I use small stones in the smaller pond to act as surface area for
bacteria?

2. Do I need to clean the bottom of the main pond on a yearly basis? If
so,
why? Can I do damage to the natural system by stirring it all up?

3. Evaporation? Given the dimensions above and our summer temps in the
60's to 70's, I have noticed that the level of the large pond area has a
loss of about 1/8" for two days.
snip


Hi,
I'm a filter believer but you, perhaps, don't need one, yet. The reason?
You've got one already. Every surface in the pond/stream is already
colonized by bacteria. If you increase the number of fish beyond just enough
for mosquito control, then a filter may be needed and they will breed.
Filters are not necessarily expensive, there are many types out there.
Adding stones adds minimally to the surface area and maximally to cleaning.
If you did monthly 10% water changes you'll see benefits. Do the change like
this, first shut the pump down for a couple hours to allow settling. Then
pump/siphon/vacuum 10% of the water from the bottom of the large pond. Use
this water to fertilize something. Refill by splashing water on the surface,
do not put the hose in the pond, this aerates and out gasses some of the
nasties. If you keep it to 10% and splash the water you can get by without
using dechlor. Some will argue with this and to be safe use Amquel or other
product.
1/8 inch in two days -- fergettaboutit.
HTH -_- how
no NEWS is good

Dang... I wanna see pictures!! (Sorry, can't help with any of your
questions......)

--Bryan


On 8/12/2004 9:21 PM Steve Shapson let loose a lemur across the keyboard
and it typed:

I have a 25'x25'x24" pond with a 60'x2' stream. 40% covered in plants. 4-6
6 inch goldfish, and some baby goldfish, a few frogs. External self priming
pump and no skimmer or biological filter. No stones on the bottom of the
large pond. The water recirculates up to a 3'x3'x12" pool with stone in it.
The water then cascades over a 36" fall into the stream. The pond is
relatively clear.

1. Do I need to install an expensive man made biological filter? If so,
can I use small stones in the smaller pond to act as surface area for
bacteria?

2. Do I need to clean the bottom of the main pond on a yearly basis? If so,
why? Can I do damage to the natural system by stirring it all up?

3. Evaporation? Given the dimensions above and our summer temps in the
60's to 70's, I have noticed that the level of the large pond area has a
loss of about 1/8" for two days. We've had no rain. Given the surface area
of my larger pond area and the length and width of the stream, is there any
evaporation that I could actually measure?

Thanks for your help.


--
************************************************** **********
* Can't see the Forest | Bryan B. *
* Through the Trees? | "Ho, Ho, Ho!" Santa *
* Take it out! | accused as he went *
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************************************************** **********

I have a 25'x25'x24" pond with a 60'x2' stream. 40% covered in plants. 4-6
6 inch goldfish, and some baby goldfish, a few frogs. External self priming
pump and no skimmer or biological filter. No stones on the bottom of the
large pond. The water recirculates up to a 3'x3'x12" pool with stone in it.
The water then cascades over a 36" fall into the stream. The pond is
relatively clear.

1. Do I need to install an expensive man made biological filter? If so,
can I use small stones in the smaller pond to act as surface area for
bacteria?

2. Do I need to clean the bottom of the main pond on a yearly basis? If so,
why? Can I do damage to the natural system by stirring it all up?

3. Evaporation? Given the dimensions above and our summer temps in the
60's to 70's, I have noticed that the level of the large pond area has a
loss of about 1/8" for two days. We've had no rain. Given the surface area
of my larger pond area and the length and width of the stream, is there any
evaporation that I could actually measure?

Thanks for your help.

--
Steve Shapson
Southern Wisconsin

We don't have a man made bio filter either, or a skimmer.
We have a undergravel filter in our actual pond. The water is also filtered
through rocks on both levels of the waterfall .What we do is use a shop vac to
clean the rocks on both levels of the waterfall. We have a drain on the
outside of the pond that we use to clean the pond. We stir up the rocks so
that stuff floats to the top and turn the drain on. As far as evaporation,
thats just a given. I myself feel that the pond should be cleaned really good
every fall and every spring. Now others may have different ideas.









Jan
"Our Pond" Page
http://hometown.aol.com/pinkpggy/index.html

"Pinkpggy" wrote in message
...


We don't have a man made bio filter either, or a skimmer.
We have a undergravel filter in our actual pond. The water is also
filtered
through rocks on both levels of the waterfall .What we do is use a shop
vac to
clean the rocks on both levels of the waterfall. We have a drain on the
outside of the pond that we use to clean the pond. We stir up the rocks
so
that stuff floats to the top and turn the drain on.
snips

Hi,
You do have a "man made bio filter" it is the undergravel one. A problem,
IME, with this is that it is also the mechanical fiter. I have a few
questions on yours if you don't mind? How deep is the gravel, in the pond,
in the waterfalls? What kind of gravel is it I.E. crushed, river, large,
small, etc. ? How often do you have to 'shake up' this filter and after the
'stuff' floats to the top do you net it or does it go out a drain and where
is the drain? What kind of plumbing is under the gravel? What size are the
holes in the plumbing? How do you clean the holes?
L8R -_- how
no NEWS is good

Hi,
You do have a "man made bio filter" it is the undergravel one. A problem,
IME, with this is that it is also the mechanical fiter. I have a few
questions on yours if you don't mind? How deep is the gravel, in the pond,
in the waterfalls? What kind of gravel is it I.E. crushed, river, large,
small, etc. ? How often do you have to 'shake up' this filter and after the
'stuff' floats to the top do you net it or does it go out a drain and where
is the drain? What kind of plumbing is under the gravel? What size are the
holes in the plumbing? How do you clean the holes?
L8R -_- how
no NEWS is good

I will try and answer your questions. I am not sure how deep the gravel is in
the pond. The top part of the waterfall is about 2 ft deep with gravel. The
second section of the waterfall is not that deep.
The gravel in both the pond and the waterfall is river rock. We clean out the
waterfall rocks every couple of months with a shop vac. We probably wouldn't
need to, but I don't like the muck to build up. The drain is on the outside
with a valve, we attach a hose to it and thats how we drain it. It works very
similar to a under gravel filter in a fish tank. The undergravel filter is
made of pvc pipe.









Jan
"Our Pond" Page
http://hometown.aol.com/pinkpggy/index.html

"Pinkpggy" wrote in message
...

I will try and answer your questions. I am not sure how deep the gravel is
in
the pond. The top part of the waterfall is about 2 ft deep with gravel.
The
second section of the waterfall is not that deep.
The gravel in both the pond and the waterfall is river rock. We clean out
the
waterfall rocks every couple of months with a shop vac. We probably
wouldn't
need to, but I don't like the muck to build up. The drain is on the
outside
with a valve, we attach a hose to it and thats how we drain it. It works
very
similar to a under gravel filter in a fish tank. The undergravel filter
is
made of pvc pipe.

Hi,
I asked because I've worked with many sub-gravel ponds. I wanted to know if
there is anything new to keep this type of setup working indefinitely
because, IME, really cleaning them meant removing all the gravel and pipes.
Very few reinstall them. The problem is that sub-gravel filters act as
mechanical filters also and mechanical filters do not remove anything from
the pond, they only hold it in place until you remove it.
I was interested in the size of holes in the piping and the location of the
drain. You mentioned stuff floating after stirring the rocks so I was
confused with drain placement. I don't want to disparage you with this
setup, the good news is sub-gravel filters work great until they don't. Seen
some work for four or five years running 24/365 with a proper fish load.
L8R -_- how
no NEWS is good

Hi,
I asked because I've worked with many sub-gravel ponds. I wanted to know if
there is anything new to keep this type of setup working indefinitely
because, IME, really cleaning them meant removing all the gravel and pipes.
Very few reinstall them. The problem is that sub-gravel filters act as
mechanical filters also and mechanical filters do not remove anything from
the pond, they only hold it in place until you remove it.
I was interested in the size of holes in the piping and the location of the
drain. You mentioned stuff floating after stirring the rocks so I was
confused with drain placement. I don't want to disparage you with this
setup, the good news is sub-gravel filters work great until they don't. Seen
some work for four or five years running 24/365 with a proper fish load.
L8R -_- how
no NEWS is good

We didn't put in the undergravel filter outselves. We had it done. So thats
why I have no idea what size holes are in the pipe itself. I do know they put
a covering over the pipes to help filter also.









Jan
"Our Pond" Page
http://hometown.aol.com/pinkpggy/index.html

"Pinkpggy" wrote in message
...
We didn't put in the undergravel filter outselves. We had it done. So
thats
why I have no idea what size holes are in the pipe itself. I do know they
put
a covering over the pipes to help filter also.

Hi,
Basically the size of the holes in the covering then, are the issue. Is
there anyway to clean them without taking them out of the pond?
-_- how
no NEWS is good